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Item Discussion Poll - Void Staff & Last Whisper: Specialized or Versatile?

Pyro··1 votes·574 views

item 3135 Void Staff has made its place in most mage builds as a mandatory third/fourth big item. It doesn't even matter if the enemies are stacking heaps of MR or not - VS is quite effective against all targets, allowing to make even greater use of Sorc's flat penetration. Void Staff's dominance is the source of abundance of Banshee's Veil, since its shield is the only machanism of defence against magic damage unaffected by magic penetration. As long as VS exists in its current form, squishies won't really be able to defend themselves in lategame with anything but Banshee's Veil or Guardian Angel.

What could potentially open up the variety of lategame mage builds is either introducing other forms of countering MR stacking or changing the way VS works to something similar to Yasuo's ultimate - affecting bonus MR, not total. This approach was actually hinted at by Rioters and then dropped for some reason - and I'm curious to find out why.

Same goes for item 3035 Last Whisper. I'm particularly worried about a gameplay pattern where a standard Pantheon build consists of Brutalizer- Last Whisper rush, making any armor purchase responses highly inefficient. I remember League of Black Cleaver all too well, but at least that's was an interactive pattern. Could a wider penetration rework and specialized Last Whisper help balance out fighters?

##Example changes (numbers to be disputed)

  • item 3135 Void Staff changed to 60 AP (from 70) and 50% bonus magic penetration (from 35% total).
  • Possible new items with milder % penetration (Abyssal Scepter with 15% reduction aura?)
  • Some other anti-MR option that wouldn't hurt squishies as hard as tanks

This would make purchasing VS a decision: Do I want to melt tanks, or do I want to invest further into bursting squishies?

Similar set of changes could occur with armor penetration. Is this the proper direction to go?

5 Comments

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

Morello had spoken out against them in S3 as a major problem, I was kinda of surprised they didn't change it for S4. Maybe S5 will make them be based around bonus rather than all.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

I think the old system with %pen+flat-pen not stacking effectively had been waay better. Flatpen to kill squishies or %pen against tanks, but not having both at the same time leads to a lot more decissions while itemizing. I also think Black-cleaver is a lot healthier as %pen item than LW, as it involves some more gameplay with the stacking mechanism.

KSHarrison1 votes

Screw it this is in response to your live gameplay thread on itemization. I just spent an hour responding there and now I realize the board was shut down. I didn't type up this long post for nothing!

KSHarrison1 votes

Great post! I think currently Athene's occupies an indispensable role with mana regen. The problem is that originally the tradeoff for having "infinite mana" was a weak early game (eg. Tear or RoA); Athene's has no real drawbacks.

###Build variety and Athene's

Going forward, I believe there are two options

  • Embrace the "infinite mana" scheme

Accept that infinite mana is the desired state of mid lane; since it is always most preferable, simplify the process. Globally buff mana regen, reduce ability mana costs, etc. A Zed vs. Yasuo lane is no less interesting for having no mana; we've seen that the primary elements of interesting gameplay aren't dependent on mana. By making mana use more forgiving for all champions naturally, the desirability of an item like Chalice falls off and new build options open up.

  • Work with what we currently have

Encourage the idea that infinite mana is obtainable only from items and accept that itemizing for it is inevitable. In tackling item variety, examine ways to include infinite mana into every viable build path. In other words, make new items with infinite mana that are competitive with Athene's.

  • Reject infinite mana

Nerf Athene's significantly. Restore the state of heavy trade offs for purchasing infinite mana. I don't actually like this idea, because I think the spamminess of abilities defines LoL, and the gameplay is actually more interesting when it revolves around other decisions than spending mana. As mentioned above, Zed / Yasuo / Riven lanes can be some of the most exciting lanes to watch. Manaless lanes are no less interesting to watch or play due to not having mana. By nerfing Athene's to the point it is no longer viable every game, not only do you have significant balance issues between mana vs. manaless champions, but the gameplay itself suffers.

###Combo Mages

The problem with combo mages is that they don't do anything. Their skillsets offer way less than other mages. Why take Cassiopeia when you can go Ryze, who is much safer due to his tankiness, has similar DPS output, and is more forgiving with a targeted CC not tied to an ult? Why take Brand when you can go Orianna and have far more utility while retaining high DPS that is more reliable and just as powerful in teamfights?

It's not just immobility. There are immobile mages that are viable in mid lane. All of the viable immobile mages offer something unique and very powerful that your so-called "combo mages" lack. Ryze has an extremely reliable kit with arguably the best scaling in the game for a mage; Twisted Fate has a very poweful global and wave clear; Syndra has a crushing lane phase; Orianna can do literally everything at once except dash. Combo mages offer nothing to compete with this.

I think helping Combo Mages won't proceed through itemization changes. Any itemization changes benefit equally as well already-viable mid lane champions. For example, Rylai buffs are nice, but Rylai's will be picked up by Orianna before someone plays Brand.

I think the combo champs need to be looked at individually, their strengths highlighted more so that each one offers something uniquely powerful to mid lane. We've seen that immobile mages can work midlane, but they need to bring more to the table. In my opinion, a key issue to examine is reliability, since many of these non-viable mages have issues with reliability and aren't compensated enough for their lack of it.

Perhaps we should create the "Orianna bar" for mid lane, and balance mages around her. Either that or nerf her, because she is OP. She's been a priority pick in every meta since S2 except the assassin meta, and even then she was used sometimes. She's the Lee Sin or Thresh of mid lane. Either nerf her or rework her so other champs have a chance at viability, or you can buff everyone else to her level.

tl;dr:

  • Increase mana regen globally for all champions OR introduce more options

  • Buff the unique strengths of "combo mages"

Great post here though!

KSHarrison1 votes

As for Void Staff and LW, if you move it to bonus %Pen it is a global nerf to mages. Right now, part of their strength is that they can be somewhat target agnostic once they by Void Staff. If you limit them in this regard, they become weaker to squishies but stronger vs. tanks.

Is a nerf something mages need?

I also disagree that BV is purchased because of its shield only. It's purchased because it is insanely efficient as a defensive item, not just for its shield, and in fact its shield is valued less for damage mitigation than it is for CC immunity from getting picked.

Void staff is indispensable, but so are a plethora of items in the mage build. If it's item variety you are looking for, at the end of the day, VS is being built typically as a 3rd or 4th item, indicating there are other, higher-priority items stifling variety.

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