They're an instant problem in solo and pro play. 70% ban rate, so even if you like the champ, you won't be able to play her. Constant problem for upcoming patches, have to nerf her every time... then once it's over, she's unplayable. Like what is the point of having play tester and whatnot if champs like her can go through ?
Sonasaurous75 votesBecause there's a department at Riot HQ that gets paid to make new champions, and clearly they have a rough quota to meet per quarter.
TBH, I'd rather Riot just stop making new champions and focus on their reworks of older champions and continue balancing the game around what's already here rather than keep introducing new champions. Or at least slow down the rate of new champions. Like...how many champions do you need in the game lol.
91929298DEL135 votes[deleted]
Sonasaurous17 votesI really doubt League would collapse on itself if Riot stopped making champions...considering they make all their money from skins anyway.
91929298DEL113 votes[deleted]
HaIlMonitor9 votesOutside of Mr "I main this champ" the week they come out, how does reworking old champs not do all of the same stuff? They usually do skins with the reworks. Unless my I am not thinking of everyone last year 5 new champs came out, and only 3 reworks happened. Even if champs need a "minor" rework (like warwick) or a Major one like Galio and a few others, I don't see how they can get the game to a somewhat reasonable balance by adding in new champs so often.
Every single new champ has shaken the game up tremendously, whether its a lane or a whole meta they throw large wrenches in an already difficult to balance game. I get that riot needs to make money and all, but every single year pro play cycles through the same crap over and over, which means the meta cycles through the same crap over and over. After two seasons generally people have seen it all more then once. I don't see outside of gamer whales how riot plans to make tons of money off of a game that their biggest selling point is "Shiny new stuff" instead of fixing glaring problems like champs that, even if they are good, are extremely out dated like Fiddlesticks and Volibear.
91929298DEL11 votes[deleted]
HaIlMonitor2 votesA lot of times when you look at new releases they take core identities of previous champions, but just add to them.
Diana to Ekko Irelia to Cammille Nocturne to Rengar And from what I can Tell Vayne to Kai'Sa
That is where my biggest issue is at least for the overall. They could have just updated many of the kits basically instead of making updated versions. I do fully get that they need a number of champs in the game and want to be creative, but honestly do they need to make as many new champs as they do?
Also, champions suitable for reworks are still many but nevertheless a limited resource, there will come a time where no single champion is considered to be strongly outdated.
That is very true, which honestly could be less then a year out if they used the new champion development group to update. There might only be 10 or so champs I can think of and some like Yi, Irelia (they are already doing), and a few other of the pure stat check check champs they could do adjustments and/or champs like Sivir who is not really bad just sadly outdated. Then add more to the game.
Blåbæret3 votesYou're comparing the current state of the game with a time where it had basically no champions vs. the current 130. Yah man, that's not how it works.
XxDRAGONsAK47xX40 votesIts true.
So true.
Like, it was pointless to add her
SierraTangoDelta20 votesOther games don't release new characters constantly and they are still very healthy in terms of playerbase and competitive games.
Fairyfleur3 votesExamples? And are they F2P like league?
MuffledGarbage9 votesI think it's to create controversy in order to gain publicity(See Camille)
Corrupt Bliss4 votesBecause champions like Zoe are not actual problems. The problem stems from players bitching because they do not put in the effort to learn how to play against said champion. Zoe was already a sub 50% w/r champion, and is now sitting between 39%-42% on win rate.
Zoe is really not that big of a deal. Her kit is fine. She is almost entirely skill shot based. Any champion with a decent amount of mobility can easily dodge Zoe's abilities, and 90% of her damage. IMO the only warranted changes were to Zoe's W and E.
Raiyza9 votesNo. Not even true. There's nothing to learn when you get hit by a bubble and die from one Q. You won't dodge everything.
raytempo29086 votesThat is the point because she is such a skill shot based champ she needs that damage to balance it out you wont dodge everything because at some point she has to hit you because she is still a champion you make it seem like here that you dont want zoe to be a champion or be balanced within her own kit to stand a chance and that doesnt make sense
4th3t0s5 votesThat is the point because she is such a skill shot based champ she needs that damage to balance it out you wont dodge everything because at some point she has to hit you because she is still a champion you make it seem like here that you dont want zoe to be a champion or be balanced within her own kit to stand a chance and that doesnt make sense
Someone is forgetting all the bullshit 
caused years ago; skillshots don't automatically get a free pass for ridiculous damage just because they aren't point-and-click. 
was on a level as if's traps snared the target, stunned for ~1 second, then applied bonus true damage on a spear, all with about 300 more range.
Corrupt Bliss2 votes has been a feast or famine champ ever since her rework. She is either top tier, or garbage. Addtionally, Nidalee's spear was not just changed because of the damage, but because of how the spear could be abused. There were several repeatable cases of Nidalee spear cloaking itself until it hit the target. Majority of the problems with Nidalee was not her spear damage, it was the rest of her kit being useless.
Old Nidalee was a spear bot. The only time you'd change into cougar form was for the bonus MS and to leap away 100x and keep throwing spears.
Zoe has a more coherent kit. Again, I feel the E and W changes were appropriate, but I don't feel that the Q nerfs were warranted. She lost more than 25% of her damage. It feels bad to play as her, and it is incredibly boring to play against her now.
Azadethe2 votesI have dueled a Zoe on 
and won, face tanking 3 E's in a row and subsequent Q's and Autos proccing Lich Banes. Yeah. There's plenty to learn. Like how much Magic resistance impacts her damage. Like how much she doesn't have sustain or is prone to low CD cc like Nami's Bubble. Like how much having Mercurials helps you survive. Like how having a sustain champ can completely negate her damage.
Nami has the lowest Base HP of all champs. I routinely have killed Zoe with the champ she should kill the most.
If you bothered to build an ounce of resist mid, she wouldn't kill you either.
(And no; this Zoe was a surgeon; She was 8/0 before she encountered me and generally missed nothing. After she encountered me, she went 9/10/8 over the rest of the duration of the game)
You do realize in LCS, even in 40 minute games, the average kills per game for Zoe was 1-4. Only 1 LCS game did Zoe get 8 kills, and it was a full build 55 min game with over 440 CS. So um yeah. you can go full games where she doesn't kill you.
IainG101 votesAny champ that can leave something nasty at Zoe's ult return point will do nasty things to her in lane; that is how to counter her. If you wanna go full brain dead, just take 
and ignore every E she throws....
General Esdeath 3 votes"wow just learn 2 play against her"
Did you not see all the threads about how her counterplay just doesn't work?
Can't QSS the drowsy, dodging Q is not a tactic, standing behind minions doesn't work vs splash damage, her ult caused a bug that made her ignore unit collision.
All her damage is on one thing, Q, with high burst, low cool down, and high range. That's not right.
PeachyPosterior3 votesAll her damage is on one thing, Q, with high burst, low cool down, and high range. That's not right.
Thats the entire point of her. She's a burst mage, and her kit has a very unique design. Her Q is meant to have high damage. The damage is all based on how much range it gets and her E keeps her target in place.
I think it's a great design, though that doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws. But she got gutted, and now they just have to add back some power for her to feel good to play.
Krytoric2 votestheres a difference between a "burst mage" and having a champion with a delete button on a very low cooldown, pretty much infinite range, and low mana cost.
Her kit takes 0 skill to use because it isnt like how a burst mage should work, you can miss all over her abilities 10 times, but landing one once means the person is either dead or has to back, and most of the time you dont even see her.
The design is cool, but her kit is so insanely overloaded and it needed to be gutted completely, im so glad shes dead.
Azadethe2 votesIt doesn't have infinite range. it has about 1350 Range, give or take a couple steps. Adc's have a high range.
It only seems like a high range, because you're counting the backwards motion. Varus's Q has a longer range.
Her kit apparrently takes a ton of skill, because even in LCS, she can't land kills. She has never broken a 50% win rate either, and her damage per game usually is never the top damage. It's usually tier 2 damage.
Your comments just suggest you've always perma banned and never even bothered to learn her.
Krytoric2 votesi said pretty much infinite, because if you want you can flash, flash again with w and ult and make it go insanely far, ADC's dont have that range.
The backwards motion is still time when its in the air, and distance its travelling.
Just cause someone misses doesn't mean they take a ton of skill, Varus / Ez miss all the time, and win rate doesn't say if a champion is broken or not, although it is a factor, its not the ONLY factor. Her Q was literally one shotting people from out of vision, there's low risk on all of her abilities and one even got stronger if you missed. Burst mages usually dont have most damage, thats not what the class is for.
Your comments suggest you're a biased Zoe player that doesn't want to accept she has major flaws in her design and was insanely broken. I have never banned Zoe, i ban Janna every game, and i played that champ like 6 times? 2 support 1 top 3 mid, and i think i did poorly once and every other time within building half an item no one could touch me.
I saw in your comment below you said :
"Her damage was never in one thing and you'd know that if you actually played her. it's in Q + lich bane proc + 2 More sparkles and E. You just think it's all in one because the kit works together."
That isnt true, thats what she CAN do, not what she was doing. She was literally one shotting people with a single ability (2 if you count the ult) If she had to do what you said to secure a kill every time, then yeah! shes a fine champ, but thats not even close to what she had to do to kill.
General Esdeath 1 votesPeachyPosterior1 votes"unique"
nice meme
Everyone is griping about how it's like pre-rework Nid, but Nid has more than one damaging ability, and also transforms.
Zoe's kit is unique due to her E and R being made for adding damage to her Q through skillshot and range, Q dealing the only damage, and her W allowing her to steal summoner spells from others once they've been used.
I'm sorry you're sour about Nid's damage having been taken away, but if it means much of anything to you you would be making threads and starting discussions about Nid trying to get attention to her for her to be in a better place.
General Esdeath 1 votesOld Nid was focused on just her Q in human form and couldn't transform until 6. Similar to Zoe, most of her damage is on ONE ability and she needs to spam it until she lands it. Zoe has her passive and W passive for some damage, Nidalee had her cougar form abilities for some damage.
Not really mad about Nid being made into her current iteration, it's much better. I'm just upset that you think Zoe is a unique kit when she's about as unique as a marksman right clicking.
PeachyPosterior1 votesOld Nid was focused on just her Q in human form and couldn't transform until 6. Similar to Zoe, most of her damage is on ONE ability and she needs to spam it until she lands it. Zoe has her passive and W passive for some damage, Nidalee had her cougar form abilities for some damage.
Not really mad about Nid being made into her current iteration, it's much better. I'm just upset that you think Zoe is a unique kit when she's about as unique as a marksman right clicking.
I do think her kit is unique because of how it all fits together. I'm not saying each individual ability is unique. I see some across the board that are similar with different stats or what have you. But her kit is, and I love how it is.
Glad you're not mad about Nid, but I think you're just under playing Zoe due to some sour feelings on her.
General Esdeath 1 votesExcept that's most champs, their kit is meant to fit together to one thing.
Azadethe2 votesYou've been able to QSS Drowsy for the last 3 patches. Her aoe is tiny, so why wouldn't standing behind miniosn work?
Her damage was never in one thing and you'd know that if you actually played her. it's in Q + lich bane proc + 2 More sparkles and E. You just think it's all in one because the kit works together.
She actually has a higher win rate now after he burying nerf than before it, because her damage has been shifted to her auto attacks. She now literally plays like Leblanc, so players who want to player her just think: Oh hey! I know Leblanc: apply CC, Q burst, Lich bane, Dead, get out.
She went from 49.6% to 54% among pro players in 8.4. Which just proves you guys have no clue what you were whining about when you complained about Q, because Q was the 8.4 nerf.
General Esdeath 1 votesYou mean patch 8.4, the current patch.
Nice job Riot, you took 3 months to make something work as it should.
Good job!
"Her Q isn't her only damage ability, Lich Bane!"
Lich Bane is an item. I could take ANY burst mage and add more spread out damage by getting it. Here's a list; 
Not to mention her W is only castable with a spell, her ult should be used for Q range, and her E has 2x the cool down of her Q. Q is the best way to proc her passive that requires the squishy mage to get real close to others.
HOLD UP SO NERFING THE Q AND MAKING HER REQUIRE MORE SKILL MADE THE PROS PICK HER UP NOW THAT SHE'S NOT BANNED? OR MAYBE...PERHAPS...PEOPLE EXPECTED TRASH WITHOUT REALIZING A GOOD PLAYER WILL MAKE ANYONE WORK?!? NO WAY!
Overall 3/10 bad bait
IainG101 votesAll her damage may be on her Q, but it still needs her E+R to do most of it; she's essentially Veigar with the ult damage split onto other skills so she has to aim (unlike him). And the best counter to her is leave nasty stuff at her ult return point; she essentially roots herself for 1.5s every time she ults....
General Esdeath 1 votes"has to aim"
Veig has to aim everything except his R, Zoe R gives her range to get closer, E creates an aoe bubble if she misses and travels through walls faster, and her Q is on a much shorter cool down.
Naymliss2 votesShe one shotted people with just her q in teamfights in pro play. Mind you this wasn't the e setup with pros vision. No, this was just the q in teamfights, but do these people need to "learn how to play against her"?
Azadethe2 votesYou're talking about one highly publicized video where Zoe Q'd a Xayah and almost 1 hit her at 55:00, and a Nunu with a 
Shielded her on the chance she might die, where she dropped from around 1700 hp to about 50. Xayah had no armor penetration, and it was late game. WTF do you expect to happen?
I HAVE DUELED ZOE ON NAMI AND WON SEVERAL TIMES.
LemurKick4 votesFirst of all, none of what you said makes sense, wtf does armor penetration have to do with anything, second of all, just because you beat a garbage player in garbage elo doesn't make Zoe a non toxic champion, I beat old Darius as full ap Nunu, that doesn't make full ap Nunu good and it certainly didn't make old Darius healthy.
Azadethe1 votesI was typing sleepy. I meant Magic Resistance. Magic resistance works WONDERS vs Zoe. If there's a game where I expect a mage to be OP (any of them), i always take Nullifying Orb, and if I'm AD, I take 
. If I'm support, I always get 
. If I'm a mid mage with sustain, I get 
and possibly . If I'm a mid mage with no sustain, I go 
. It's better to blunt your own damage and use champ viable resist items than it is to get murdered by champs like 
They all generally erase champs in 1 combo if you let them, and most are far more reliable at doing so than Zoe. Transcendence is an amazing anti nuke rune if you let it be.
If you build no Mag resist, I have no pity for you.
Recently, i got filled as ADC vs a Support and a 
. Guess who won? Me. I took 
, built Grasp of the Undying, Second Wind, Bone plating and secondary Precision with Triumph and Legend: Bloodlines.
I took a Doran's Shield and a Doran's Blade, and after that, Xerath just couldn't outdamage my heals. Switcharoo is an amazing Grasp tool, and Jinx generally attacks minions to set up her attack speed, so Grasp is a match made in heaven. Every time Xerath tried to nuke me, I'd take it, auto him back, proc grasp and heal myself and Second wind does the rest along with my Doran's Shield and Life steal. Then I built and mowed them both down. Then I proceeded into the normal Jinx kit.
You do what it takes to win. You don't build cookie cutter every game, because the other team is expecting cookie cutter. Why do you think the support chose Xerath? He wanted to be a lane bully that couldn't be killed. And he would. If I was a cookie cutter player.
P.S. Trash tier? I'm Plat II and Plat I. The Plat I is in provisionals.
LemurKick1 votesCounterbuilding is not counterplay. What you need to realize is when people talk about a champion being unhealthy or broken, they are not saying that the champion is unbeatable in every situation, I agree with you that building magic resist is very effective against Zoe, but that doesn't mean that her kit is healthy, resistances are effective against every champion in the game, that doesn't mean that every champion in the game has a fair kit. Good ole' perma root Ryze good be countered with tenacity, cleanse and QSS, that doesn't mean he a fair and balanced champion to play play against. As for the rest of your post, why the hell would ever take grasp on an adc? It's healing scales off your max health, as an adc you're going to get way more healing off of fleet footwork and overall more beneficiary stats and you can still take resolve as your secondary tree. Also your profile shows you peaking at silver 4 last season and unranked now, so either you're lying or you have another account, but that doesn't mean much because plat isn't high elo.
Azadethe1 votesThat's like saying...
has counterplay
has counterplay
has counterplay
has counterplay
has counterplay
has counterplay
has counterplay
has counterplay
has counterplay
has counterplay
has counterplay
has counterplay
has counterplay
has counterplay
In reality.... none of these champs has direct and constant counterplay. Their counterplay exists in itemization, or very specific niche counters, which usually don't exist on the team opposing them if they are chosen. Many of them absolutely just outrange and out spam whatever is thrown at them linearly. The only counterplay is realistically...... very risky ganks....and active teamwork. Almost none of them can be dueled 1v1, especially in a lane situation.
Most of these will win outright in ANY 1v1, and 's ult is usually extremely unfair when used, because you generally can't erase his teammates before the invuln procs, you're usually stunned, and you're already locked in combat so there's often no option to just "wait it out."
Grasp heals based off max HP. That's true. But an adc can proc it more than melees can, and it gives access to Second Wind, Bone Plating, and Overgrowth. It also adds reliable damage, and ADC consistently has the second highest HP scaling per level of any role in the game. It's about combating DOT damage, not about the grasp. Grasp just makes up some of the heals you lose from fleet footwork, procs more actively, and allows you to counter specific supports who are painful, like , because Second wind will heal you out of a lot of the damage they put on you in addition to Grasp.
Coup degras has been nerfed, and you can still pick 2 precisions as a Grasp adc, so in reality you can still grab Triumph and a Legend rune with Grasp, and have a hell of a heal capability (I generally have Triumph and Legend: Bloodlines on a Grasp build)
Fleet is not going to sustain you in a lane vs DoT damage.
I think you need to relook at this account:
LemurKick1 votesOkay I'll say it again, counterbuilding is not counterplay. And most of those champions definitely have counterplay through obvious zones of control and telegraphed abilities, which Zoe lacks due to how her bubble travels through walls and the range of her QR combo which can very easily come from our of vision.
Grasp is gonna heal you for about 1% of your max health whenever you can get it off, which in the kanr you described shouldn't be very often against competent players. Footwork is going to heal you more as an adc in every situation, esoecially once you oick up some crit,and you can still take boneplate and second wind for the sustain.
As for your rank, every single website I checked has you at silver 4 last season and unranked this season with no gsmes played, which the client showed as well when I looked you up so I'm not sure what that's about.
Azadethe1 votesThey do not have direct counterplay. You're arguing that Zoe doesn't have an obvious zone while Ziggs or Riven does? lol. A pro Riven and jump Baron pit walls,.... and tons of other fat walls, meaning she's 100% unpredictable. Further, a pro Riven can path through about the same distance as a Zoe in one Q if used correctly and her ult has little to no counterplay after she gets there.
There are a TON of champs who have more range on their damage than Zoe. Zoe is 1650 range considering a full use Q (an E trough a hyper long wall isn't going to even be feasible for a Q combo, so dunno why you brought that up). Kha can travel 2160 range in one combo, and he's melee.
Grasp heals for 2 % of max HP per 4 seconds. Jinx can spam it. Dunno where you get the idea competent players can dodge a 620-700 range basic attack vs another competent player. And again. It's NOT about Grasp. It's about Grasp + Second wind + Overgrowth. You will outheal any DOT damage. I don't use Grasp EVERY GAME. But when I do, I end games with some 18,000 heals, and outlane the FF champs, because they are lower range and can't hit me.
As for your tunnel vision point: What that's about: you're a 2 dimensional thinker. Look at when that account was made. How soon after Evelynn came out. How soon after Zoe came out. And yeah. It finished in Silver. It started in Gold V and climbed to Gold IV. Only ~ 16 days after the account was made. Then I went 13% win rate with Evelynn for the first 10 days of her remake, experimenting with builds, because her kit wasn't made for the old rune systems (she couldn't even Baron because the old jungle items didn't heal enough, and Ravenous Hunter didn't exist; Baron 3 shot her). By the end of the season (a whopping 44 days after that account was made), I had Evelynn to 44% from that 13%, and I'm running 72% win rate now.
You're bishing about an account that was literally only played for 3 months.
I've been playing since Season 4. Figure it out.
Pika Fox2 votesPeople dislike assassins. Zed was almost always balanced, but was still nerfed and changed because people refuse to learn about champ weaknesses and play around them. And id argue zed is infinitely more frustrating than an immobile mage who cant run away.
Infernape12 votesThen again Zed can't repeatedly take random potshots at you without running out of Energy.
Kanzler5 votesThat's a joke right?
raytempo29084 votesI agree it doesnt make sense to nerf zoe and act as if she is such a probaly when people like veigar for example are doing the same thing and it most cases better veigar also has a hard cc 3 damaging abilites and a point click no skill ult that has the potential to 100 to 0 you yet no one is screaming for a veigar nerf at least zoe has to actually manage to hit you and not point click you.
Also as you pointed out she is immobile and also she is a single target focus in team fights she cant do as much as so many other champions and can easily be stopped when groups form she was good at what she was made to do and bad in the places that mattered i truly dont understand the hate
Pika Fox6 votesIts partly because her Q is her main damage deliverance tool and her passive, E and R all boost Qs damage, so people think she just one shots them when in reality they got hit by 3 abilities and her passive. That, and people like to hyperbolize how much damage she really does and assume a 6 item 2 levels up zoe vs an ADC is her damage at all points in the game, or when she cleans up after a fight.
Sp33d Zer01 votesZed was imbalanced for the longest time. Hes a melee assassin with longer effective range than a lot of the ranged mages. Before he got his balancing changes you'd die from getting poked by an assassin as Often as you'd get all in'd
Pika Fox1 votesZed was almost always balanced. Even riot openly stated multiple times they feel Zed is the most balanced assassin in the game, but still wanted to change him because they felt they could make him less frustrating to play against while still being balanced.
Zed was never OP except from brief adjustments riot made to try and make him less frustrating to play against and put power elsewhere, or from meta/item changes.
NineTailedMystic1 votesEven riot openly stated multiple times they feel Zed is the most balanced assassin in the game
No, they said he was the healthiest Assassin. His burst pattern was much fairer than other Assassins at the time of them stating that.
Pika Fox1 votesAlso stated they felt he was pretty much balanced, and if anything a bit weak.
