Idea for a Zeke's Herald Rework: Making it a Tank Sustain Item

Kingsgrave·Feb 11, 2015·4 votes·3,126 views

600g + 600g + 850g + 600g + Combine Cost of 350 = 3000g

Barely over 100% Gold Efficiency to stop this item from being purchased every single game

+600 Health = Worth 1602 Gold in Stats +20% CDR = Worth 633 Gold in Stats +200% Health Regeneration = Worth 720 Gold in Stats

Unique Passive: Dealing damage to an Enemy Champion will heal you for 1%(+.5%*Level) of your Maximum Health. 120 second CD. CD reduces by X seconds per Assist. Reduces by Y seconds if a nearby Enemy Champion dies without you being involved in their death.

General Idea:

Skirmishy Tank Item that provides sustain based on a defensive stat that promotes skirmishing and teamfighting to get any amount of benefit from the item. Scales based on level in terms of the amount of healing you get from your Health stat.

Lifesteal as an aura will probably be removed for the same reasons spellvamp aura was removed from WotA. 20 AD isn't enough for any character to scale well with, so that seems rather pointless as part of the item. Auras in general are invisible power or toxic, think Bulwark, depending on how noticeable and how large the numbers of the Auras are.

32 Comments

RiotRiot ReinboomFeb 11, 201510 votes

Your passive is pretty complex there and obfuscates what your intents are.

The overall idea of tank active sustain is actually a really cool idea. I believe you're correct in identifying that that is a unique identity that Zeke's has.

Zeke's is in a rather awkward state overall though. One of the issues with changing the item this aggressively is that it has many other identities:

It's a CDR AD fighter item.
It's a tanky active sustain item.
It's a point-of-team-benefit (aura) physical oriented item.

Carving off either 1 or 2 I think is... kind of "safe", but carving off 3 is pretty major. At that point I would question whether the resulting item should be called Zeke's Herald anymore. Carving off both 1 and 2 would be the same.

I would actually like to get insight into what people think the most important identity of Zeke's is.

KingsgraveFeb 11, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Reinboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a9uWghyd,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-11T21:58:55.306+0000)

Your passive is pretty complex there and obfuscates what your intents are.

The overall idea of tank active sustain is actually a really cool idea. I believe you're correct in identifying that that is a unique identity that Zeke's has.

Zeke's is in a rather awkward state overall though. One of the issues with changing the item this aggressively is that it has many other identities:

It's a CDR AD fighter item.

It's a tanky active sustain item.

It's a point-of-team-benefit (aura) physical oriented item.

Carving off either 1 or 2 I think is... kind of "safe", but carving off 3 is pretty major. At that point I would question whether the resulting item should be called Zeke's Herald anymore. Carving off both 1 and 2 would be the same.

I would actually like to get insight into what people think the most important identity of Zeke's is.

Well the stats it gives on live are too toxic to be together so I just went with the general concept of Zeke's and morphed it into a different item.

If you have Lifesteal + AD + Health + CDR on one item, it can never be viable because all of those stats are exactly what every Fighter wants. Renekton wants it. Gnar wants it. Darius wants it. Jarvan wants it. Xin wants it etc.,

** Health + CDR + AD can't work because Renekton/Gnar/Aatrox

Health + AD + Lifesteal can't work because Renekton/Gnar/Aatrox
AD + Lifesteal + CDR can't work and the only item that has that combination is locked away by inefficiency and a hyper specific passive that almost no character really benefits from
CDR + Lifesteal probably couldn't work even with just those stats alone but it could be interesting
Health + Lifesteal could probably work but its a very odd combination and I originally considered it for this item giving Lifesteal based on Bonus Health, but then stuff like Irelia and Aatrox would spam it every game and become obnoxious*

Auras are invisible power and not noticeable or appreciated unless they are massive (riot said this themselves when they reworked Sona). I don't really know what the benefit of giving AD and Lifesteal to teammates really is and based on a past decision to remove the Spellvamp aura from WotA, I can't imagine you all will keep the Lifesteal on there much longer. Especially because Lifesteal and Spellvamp are very selfish stats and can also be way too powerful if you gave a lot of it to people. All the items that give those stats are rather costly, usually at a risk, so I can't imagine its good for a utility item to have the stats.

I know it seems rather harsh to change it completely and perhaps I should have explained it more, but as it stands nothing about Zeke's is good item design and none of the stats or ideas behind it really work. Not saying my idea is any better tho.

The general intent with the passive was to create an item that a tanky utility character like a Nautilus or a Rammus would buy to gain sustain in teamfights that they otherwise wouldn't have, but it comes at a rather high cost for the item.

darkdillFeb 11, 20153 votes

I feel like Zeke's would be very interesting if its aura both gave lifesteal to your allies and let you receive a minor portion of whatever health they get from lifestealing off enemy Champions. (This might be abusive in some team comps, though.)

Or perhaps whenever a nearby allied Champion hits an enemy Champion with a basic attack, you are healed a flat amount.

Either way, I think the one carrying the Zeke's should be rewarded in some way whenever his/her teammates are attacking the enemy.

KingsgraveFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I feel like Zeke's would be very interesting if its aura both gave lifesteal to your allies and let you receive a minor portion of whatever health they get from lifestealing off enemy Champions. (This might be abusive in some team comps, though.)

Or perhaps whenever a nearby allied Champion hits an enemy Champion with a basic attack, you are healed a flat amount.

Either way, I think the one carrying the Zeke's should be rewarded in some way whenever his/her teammates are attacking the enemy.

They removed Sion's old Ultimate because the act of giving health based on your or someone else's damage is obscene if its actually viable. The risk to lifesteal is that if you get locked down, usually as a squishy because those are the ones that usually buy Lifesteal, you cant lifesteal and you die. There is a sustained risk and reward pattern there.

If you just have a viable version of Zeke's where it does as you suggested, then you just have someone like Aatrox who will build full tank beyond that item and sustain. Lock him down and you cant focus Vayne. Lock Vayne down and you can't focus Aatrox or the other AD that might be on the team that is giving him Lifesteal anyway.

Also with Auras you have to be worried about multiple team members buying it. Could you imagine that passive stacking? Would be terrifying.

GundayMondayFeb 11, 20151 votes

The aura.

Only buy this item when we have a goofy all AD team comp, or when my adc needs a little extra endurance + oomph to get through their sustain tank line.

Solidair3Feb 11, 20151 votes

To me, the aura is the most important part and its main identity (again, to me). That being said, I haven't built this item in over a year because it has SUCH limited use on almost any composition.

It needs some changes, because even if it's supposed to be a niche item, I can safely say that its niche is so rare that it really doesn't even need to see play EVER.

It's really only good on all AD teams in which most/all of them are heavy auto attackers, a comp you just don't see.

StarlighteFeb 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Reinboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a9uWghyd,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-11T21:58:55.306+0000)

Your passive is pretty complex there and obfuscates what your intents are.

The overall idea of tank active sustain is actually a really cool idea. I believe you're correct in identifying that that is a unique identity that Zeke's has.

Zeke's is in a rather awkward state overall though. One of the issues with changing the item this aggressively is that it has many other identities:

It's a CDR AD fighter item.

It's a tanky active sustain item.

It's a point-of-team-benefit (aura) physical oriented item.

Carving off either 1 or 2 I think is... kind of "safe", but carving off 3 is pretty major. At that point I would question whether the resulting item should be called Zeke's Herald anymore. Carving off both 1 and 2 would be the same.

> I would actually like to get insight into what people think the most important identity of Zeke's is.

One of the few remaining "Aura" items in the game. And honestly, I miss aura items. I thought it was a unique niche that some champion passives filled (Zilean and Janna, but now the global->limited range nerf.) and I see no reason why aura items are unhealthy or being systematically removed for "active" items in the game. It seems like a major bummer and I would like to see more aura items like Zeke's and Locket, but at a higher price tier.

GigglesOFeb 11, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Reinboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a9uWghyd,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-11T21:58:55.306+0000)

I would actually like to get insight into what people think the most important identity of Zeke's is.

Aura + tank

JamnonFeb 11, 20154 votes

I buy it to help my team. So usually I am thinking on a support mind-set. Maybe I'll grab it on Renek to help my team.

However, I don't "see" how it helps them very effectively. It's really an invisible power. item 3190 and item 3069 on the other hand, do a GREAT job (actives) at showing how it is they help, and feel really good to use. item 3105 is bought for the same reason, but doesn't feel really good to use.

EfficientDynamoFeb 12, 20151 votes

I'd like to second the comment about the invisible power of an aura being a problem. In theory this could be fixed with a VU (maybe a glow around people who are benefiting, similar to spellblade being up).

One interesting way of tuning this item is to give it a set amount of AD/lifesteal to those within its aura, so that the more people in it the more ways this set amount is split. That way it becomes a useful laning/midgame/jungle item, but doesn't become OP in a teamfight.

TerchioFeb 12, 20151 votes

It should be a physical support item, really. Always been able to do that since the Stark's Fervor days, but it's definitely lost its edge on its DPS clientelle, as it should. No reason support should be left to a bunch of poofy magicians. I tend to rock this whenever I break out my Supplank, but sadly he's one of few choices that have any synergy among possible supports (Lee sin maybe? Ashe? Urgot?)

I will say, lifesteal is a cruddy stat for a supporty character who is supposed to be a lesser force when it comes to damage, and it's very hard to balance a support item based on stats supports can't use. Additionally, very few champions use CDR and lifesteal particularly well together anyways. I'd suggest a real "herald" type approach to the item where you plant a symbol for the opening charge; I'd say something like a mark left following your autoattack on an enemy target to be plunked by your support for damage (think Lux's passive, or more similar to Leona's passive), or a healing effect that has no bearing on the power of either your autoattack or your allies', with a set amount of heal instead. It would feel similar to the old Innervating Locket, but would activate on autoattack (probably balanced to be only for melee, but they tend to be the only ones that use Zeke's anyway).

And btw, someone had some old campaign to bring a buff champion to support named Angus. I definitely back that, as something needs to quell these supermages going down there, like Annie and Morgana. Whatever that champion would be would most definitely enjoy carrying whatever it is that Zeke's ends up being.

ChimeiTekinaNasuFeb 12, 20151 votes

Oooh. I really like this item. Too bad it's not good enough to get often. I usually get it if I'm ahead and we just need a little more damage and I know we're going to win anyways even if I don't have a better tanky item. So I only end up getting it rarely. I mainly like it and get it for its passive. That's what I'd say its most important identity is for me. Giving team extra damage and even some lifesteal. Well, mostly the damage part, cause like, I don't know if Vampiric Scepter building into it is suitable for it. Cause you get Vamp Scepter, yet when you get the full item, the aura gives your allies lifesteal and not you.

So you maybe you could tweak it to give allies extra AD/AP and get rid of the lifesteal part on it. Cause I really don't think that Vamp Scepter should build into it, especially since you don't get any of the lifesteal yourself from Zeke's. I think it's better if you have top Renekton, mid Zed, jungle Warwick. Cause it gives no AP bonus and would be wasted on AP team comps.

Maybe give it something like 30+ AD (to make it better, like a buff, and to make up for the loss of lifesteal), and however much AP. Maybe 30AD/50AP, or....you could have it give something like 10% AD/AP kind of like what you did with Dragon.

The 20% CDR is nice, but it's wasted on champs who get something like Iceborn, Locket, and Crucible or something. 2 of those is nice, but I think it goes over 40% CDR with Zeke's if you have 2 or more of those. Sometimes I'll get Face of Mountain, Locket, and Crucible. Which is 30%, so the 20% CDR would be wasted if I got Zeke's with those items. Maybe give it 5% or 10% CDR, and give it other better stats in exchange. I'd say it's extra damage aura fits its identity more than all that cooldown does. Oh, I have an idea. You could make it similar to Locket. A bit like this.

500 health 50 armor 5% CDR, or 10, I guess

Passive: Flat/Percent bonus AD/AP to allies.

Maybe an active as well. Cause I feel if the extra damage actually helps your team win fights better, then you should get assists off it somehow. Cause I think it can be really good for that.

Edit: PS, if nothing else, at least take the Vamp Scepter out of its build. That is the most awkward thing ever. What if the support chose to get Vamp Scepter first. "Why does Leona have a Vamp Scepter????", "Uhhh.....for the only support item that builds out of it". So I'd say that most supports get Kindlegem first, then wait till they can upgrade it fully. Cause that's what I do. Would you walk around with a Vamp Scepter until you get 1650G to upgrade it?? As a support of all roles.

Duke AnaxFeb 12, 20151 votes

I think the CDR AD part is the most important, because there is not much alternative. However the other two identities are more defining to the item.

The best way to shave of that identitiy without actually loosing it is to split the item.

item 3067 + item 1053 = Blood Banner Blood Banner + item 3134 = Morak's Slaughter Blood Banner + item 3801 = item 3050

PocketbombFeb 12, 20151 votes

To me, the heart of Zeke's is its aura. This aura should be on an item for tanky supports and junglers to buy when they're ahead. A snowbally item to help slay dragons and push towers. A risky item that could backfire, and end up being wasted gold if you're unable to capitalize on it. It's a niche that is noticeably missing from the shop, and one this aura or a similar one could fulfill nicely if attached to a different item.

It's clear from your post that you view Zeke's in the light of what it has become, a poorly concieved AD fighter item with awesome stats, bogged down by am awkward aura. The reason these don't work together is the stats are designed to help a fighter in lane (top lane) but because of the powerful aura, the gold efficiency of the stats are too low to be able to justify buying in lane. The way to fix this problem is to split these effects into two items.

The first, a top lane CDR/sustain/aura item for AD fighters which would look something like this:

Zeke's Herald: Kindle Gem + Vampiric Scepter + 800 gold 300 Health 25 Attack Damage 10% Lifesteal 10% Cooldown Reduction Unique Active: All nearby allies gain 20 attack damage and 15% Cooldown Reduction for 10 seconds, 210 second cooldown.

Boom fighters get everything that attracted them in a much sleeker package while still being able to help their team. And tanks can claim the rights to a new persistent, offensive aura. Which brings me to:

Stark's Ferver: (working title) glacial Shroud + Dagger + Kindlegem 700 Gold 200 Health 250 Mana 30 Armor 10% Cooldown Reduction Passive: All nearby allies gain 20% Attack Speed and 3% Movement speed.

The reason Zeke's Herald works better as an active is because it allows us to make it slightly more gold efficient, and shift the power around to where an AD fighter in the top lane might consider buying it early enough for it to do its job. Stark's Ferver, with a persistent aura works better on a tank/support champion in the jungle or bottom lane. It allows his team to utilize the aura both in the team fight, and after, for sweet objective control.

Plus I think the idea of a active aoe CDR buff will be pretty cool, I'd have so much fun casting it immediately after my friends ulted!

NullDragonFeb 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Reinboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a9uWghyd,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-11T21:58:55.306+0000)

Your passive is pretty complex there and obfuscates what your intents are.

The overall idea of tank active sustain is actually a really cool idea. I believe you're correct in identifying that that is a unique identity that Zeke's has.

Zeke's is in a rather awkward state overall though. One of the issues with changing the item this aggressively is that it has many other identities:

It's a CDR AD fighter item.

It's a tanky active sustain item.

It's a point-of-team-benefit (aura) physical oriented item.

Carving off either 1 or 2 I think is... kind of "safe", but carving off 3 is pretty major. At that point I would question whether the resulting item should be called Zeke's Herald anymore. Carving off both 1 and 2 would be the same.

I would actually like to get insight into what people think the most important identity of Zeke's is.

My insight? It's an auto-enhancing item.

Like the most I can think of is something like, uh. Sona's Q, really. To make it really work, it needs to be something that helps the autos of all teammates, even AP. Lifesteal plus a mini-nashor's tooth, maybe? Not sure. I kind of like the idea of making all enemies have vorpal blade procs, however.

DrukyulFeb 11, 20152 votes

"Zeke's is bad design" HA

just like WOTA was until pros started using it

the only problem with Zeke's is that it has 20% CDR that it doesn't need; drop it to 10 and buff it in some other way

darkdillFeb 11, 20151 votes

That can work too. Give it more health and less CDR and I'd get it more often.

KingsgraveFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That can work too. Give it more health and less CDR and I'd get it more often.

At that point you might as well just remove the AD and Lifesteal and give it a new passive or active.

KingsgraveFeb 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

"Zeke's is bad design" HA

just like WOTA was until pros started using it

the only problem with Zeke's is that it has 20% CDR that it doesn't need; drop it to 10 and buff it in some other way

Wota got nerfed because of Vlad and the aura.

DrukyulFeb 11, 20151 votes

It got nerfed because of double-aura stacking in general. Anyone could do it for a long, long time, but you rarely if ever saw it. You can do it with Zeke's, too, again not that anyone ever does.

TsundayFeb 11, 20151 votes

Nope not at all. Tank supports don't build all of those items that were recently converted for them. Still no Ohmwreckers in our games.

On top of that Zeke's niche is for AD based teams to give them a bit of damage. It's actually a decent item on Sona given the right team and it's a pretty decent item on someone like Thresh or Leona when they have an AD based team because it gives them and their teammates a bit of extra harass/sustain. The item becomes a lot more selfish without the ally aura to it.

KingsgraveFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Nope not at all. Tank supports don't build all of those items that were recently converted for them. Still no Ohmwreckers in our games.

On top of that Zeke's niche is for AD based teams to give them a bit of damage. It's actually a decent item on Sona given the right team and it's a pretty decent item on someone like Thresh or Leona when they have an AD based team because it gives them and their teammates a bit of extra harass/sustain. The item becomes a lot more selfish without the ally aura to it.

I didn't intend for supports to build this item. Its meant for Tanks like Rammus that don't have sustain options.

The aura is hyper specific and feels mostly wasted honestly. Would be better as a selfish item

TsundayFeb 11, 20151 votes

Man it is my 1 AD support item in the entire game. It is intended to be a support item. In fact it would be a super great Braum item because his allies are AAing stuff to stack the stun. It's not really a hyper specific item. It works in most comps with a tank support (Leona and Thresh being 2 of the most popular supports in the game) that doesn't consist of a double AP comp (which with Zed's popularity isn't something that occurs often.

KingsgraveFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Man it is my 1 AD support item in the entire game. It is intended to be a support item. In fact it would be a super great Braum item because his allies are AAing stuff to stack the stun. It's not really a hyper specific item. It works in most comps with a tank support (Leona and Thresh being 2 of the most popular supports in the game) that doesn't consist of a double AP comp (which with Zed's popularity isn't something that occurs often.

Braum and Leona and Thresh would love this item even more than they would in 1 out of 50 games compared to the one on live where its 1 out of 10000 maybe beyond you being a specific example of the only real person to use the item.

TsundayFeb 11, 20151 votes

Actually it synergizes really well with Braum ATM. it has a 1100 range. If Braum is in AA range to stack the stun anybody from a tank to a mage gets an extra 20 damage per hit to stack it with and it gives HP + CDR which are 2 things Braum loves.

People would start building your suggested version of Zeke's with Warmogs and all of a sudden you have Garen's and Mundos that are literally unkillable.

+600 Health = Worth 1602 Gold in Stats

that's a lot of HP saying the highest HP item in the game gives you 800.

+20% CDR = Worth 633 Gold in Stats

Half of the CDR cap

+200% Health Regeneration = Worth 720 Gold in Stats

Good health regen. Pair it with a SV and a Warmog's and an Armor item of your choosing and you have a tank who ends game with 0 deaths even if he 1v5s for 20 seconds. It's over a 100% gold efficient without being situational like the Zeke's (someone who can't use LS doesn't find it gold efficient until allies walk into radius range), it's a buff to already strong supports like Leona and Thresh, and it takes away from its core identity as an item.

beyond you being a specific example of the only real person to use the item.

I'd rather be 'the only person' to use the item than for it to be an item everybody uses on every champion because it's OP

KingsgraveFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Actually it synergizes really well with Braum ATM. it has a 1100 range. If Braum is in AA range to stack the stun anybody from a tank to a mage gets an extra 20 damage per hit to stack it with and it gives HP + CDR which are 2 things Braum loves.

People would start building your suggested version of Zeke's with Warmogs and all of a sudden you have Garen's and Mundos that are literally unkillable.

that's a lot of HP saying the highest HP item in the game gives you 800.

Half of the CDR cap

Good health regen. Pair it with a SV and a Warmog's and an Armor item of your choosing and you have a tank who ends game with 0 deaths even if he 1v5s for 20 seconds. It's over a 100% gold efficient without being situational like the Zeke's (someone who can't use LS doesn't find it gold efficient until allies walk into radius range), it's a buff to already strong supports like Leona and Thresh, and it takes away from its core identity as an item.

I'd rather be 'the only person' to use the item than for it to be an item everybody uses on every champion because it's OP

Wouldn't Braum rather have some other Health + CDR item than Zeke's? It doesn't even give that much Health and the Lifesteal is mostly wasted on a guy with no AD in his build, no scaling with it and a guy who barely autoattacks more than 3-4 times in a fight typically.

TsundayFeb 12, 20151 votes

Lifesteal is mostly wasted on a guy with no AD in his build

He's a support he builds items for other people. Yes there are other items with better Health and other items that gice CDR, but if you are picking Braum you should be picking him in a team with at least 2 champions that heavily rely on AAs (and unless the 2nd champion is a Kayle or Teemo they are probably AD) both of which will use the lifesteal. On 1 person Zeke's is actually like 105-7% gold efficient, just over 100 but I forget the exact percent, with an ADC and another AA based champion in range that becomes at least 200% (for them two) as well as it's still a decent item on you. No it's not the best item in every case, but if you picked Braum into the right team comp (after the Braum nerfs you should pick him into an AA heavy team) Zeke's can be 300-400% gold efficient giving him good stats for most of the team.

When you think of a support item that Braum, Leona, and sometimes Thresh should build that often seems silly it's actually Locket. You build it for the AoE shield but you build it against a heavy AoE team even if they don't have a ton of magic damage and you don't need the MR that much. Same on a lot of squishy supports, why does a Janna need MR against a Talon mid? She doesn't but between Talon's rake and Jinx's rocket's AoE Locket is a decent item.

ErockandrollFeb 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I didn't intend for supports to build this item. Its meant for Tanks like Rammus that don't have sustain options.

The aura is hyper specific and feels mostly wasted honestly. Would be better as a selfish item

Then it should be a different Item. Don't go removing support options. I would still get those items on leona/thresh.

Are we serious about Tanks not having sustain options, don't we have Warmorgs?

KingsgraveFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Then it should be a different Item. Don't go removing support options. I would still get those items on leona/thresh.

Are we serious about Tanks not having sustain options, don't we have Warmorgs?

Its not really a support option.

Its very inefficient and you will almost never get a real benefit from it. Who needs 20 AD? No fighter I know of would ever benefit from that little of AD. No ADC would either. Lifesteal is a selfish stat and multiplicative and tanky and supporty items typically don't multiply with other items.

The CDR aura item and Ionic Spark were both removed in the past because it tricked you into thinking they were good under any circumstance for you to buy. 20% CDR is great and alluring, but why get that 20% CDR item when you can buy a different item?

Also, AD supports are something Riot has said they will never make or balance the game around or even really allow it as a viable option because of the multiplicative scaling of AD and also if they are ranged AD and can function as a support as well, you have 2 carries that become monstrous. Imagine if Urgot could be a support while also being a carry even with low range. Imagine if Thresh was an AD support. Both would be nerfed immediately and reworked soon after.

Icy AuronFeb 12, 20151 votes

Seems too similar to item 3083 , as well.

Fitz n The FoolFeb 12, 20151 votes

PLEASE just revert Zeke's back to what it was in season 2 early season 3. Attack Speed + Lifesteal aura with HP + CDR as stats. It was a good item then. Now it sucks. I don't know why it just can't be what it used to be.