Sona: How would you improve her?

only zhule··17 votes·2,372 views

So I've played Sona for a long long time, love the character, but she always feels a bit flat. Outside of a great Ultimate, no one action that Sona does is ever all that impressive. Even her damage, a thing some people complain about heavily, isn't all that impressive if you look at any one part of it. She has high base AD for a caster but it's not insane by any means, the bolts do rather low levels of damage by themselves, the bonus damage she gets from using her Hymn of Valor is by no means all that impressive, Hell even her powercord isn't all that much damage (for an ability that requires 3 spells cast before to use). The problem is that generally speaking you are getting it with all of this at the same time.

So I think maybe we finally make Sona's Hymn of Valor a skill shot of some degree. This would quite the people complaining that Sona gets "free damage" from the ability, but would also take steps towards fixing the problem that most of Sona's damage is loaded into one big punch, made up of an auto attack followed by an instant auto attack refresh + damage from the bolts + bonus damage of the empowered auto + powercord (and in many cases then plus the bonus damage from item 3100 ).

Passive:

I kind of like what Sona does with her passive(s) currently. If i had to change anything, i might make powercord Staccato shred armor and magic resist. And probably change the visuals for W powercord, so that the enemy model "shinks" based off how much less % of damage they do.

Hymn of Valor:

So the first big change would be that Sona's Q no longer auto targets. Instead she fires off a sound blast that detonates at a selected location. Think empowered Karma Q. units at the center of the explosion take X damage while those at the outer ring take 30% less.

As a secondary effect Sona plays a song for 3 seconds, this song gives an "aura" to allies that either gives them a small AD/AP boost OR converts a small % of their damage dealt into true damage for the duration.

I'd argue that this solves a lot of the current issues with Sona. You can miss your shots, it gives Sona wave clear, and most importantly it removes the need to do a follow up (no more 2 AA + 3 sources of magic damage + 100% AP scaling done in half a second). The secondary effect opens paths for more team damage instead of more personal damage. The hope is that this pushes Sona away from "needing" a ton of AP to work and thus makes item 3100 Sona less popular.

Aria of Perseverance:

The front half of this spell wouldn't change much, you'd still heal yourself and the lowest health ally in a certain range. HOWEVER the secondary effect would change from giving a shield to everyone you tag, to Sona laying down an area of effect around her that allies gain % spell vamp / life steal while inside.

With an increase in the base cooldown, this spell would change Sona's heals from a chaingun of low individual impact heals & shields in the late game, to strategic high potential impact abilities that can swing team fights if used correctly.

Song of Celerity:

What if this ability also gave attack speed to allies in the area? Instead of being the spell everyone levels last, because lets be honest the scaling per rank is kind of horrible, and often there isn't any reason to cast it during battle except to build a stack towards power cord.

With this spell giving bonus attack speed, Sona's are forced to consider the different options when leveling. Level Q for more bonus damage, Level W to make your allies more resilient in combat, or Level E and let your allies get into combat faster as well as land 1-2 more hits when trading with opponents.

Crescendo:

If i had to change anything, i might make this an AOE around Sona instead of a short range line nuke with travel time. Oh and given the other abilities power i would remove the bonus CDR. No one wants to deal with a Sona that ALWAYS has an ability up and another ready on stand by.

Finally i would up the cooldowns of Sona's abilities. Since her spells would now have much larger effects, their isn't as much need for her to be a spell flinging chain gun in the late game. Also no spell weaving, you can only get one bonus at a time

The basic goal of this rework would change Sona from an early game liability and a late game machine gun, to a champion that requires more skill to use the right abilities at the right time so that her team can win a fight.

76 Comments

Eternal Torment18 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZyiMaLfZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-29T23:01:34.147+0000) but she always feels a bit flat.

***inately staring at her chest *** ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT

Sonasaurous8 votes

As a lowly Sona main, I wouldn't mind changes to her R - Crescendo. Changes as in...slightly larger range, slightly larger width (hitbox, I guess?), and, let's be real, an actual stun. For a skillshot ult that costs 100 mana and has a 140/120/100 cd, having a stun that lasts 1.5 no matter the rank is very disappointing, especially when other champions in the game have longer stuns at lower cds and costs.

Why play Sona when her only game changing ability is a 1.5 stun that she will realistically only hit 2-3 people with...when you can play Morgana who has a single target root for 2-3 secs (that scales with rank) and a multitarget stun that lasts 1.5 secs but ALSO deals twice the amount of damage?

And sure, while the average AoE stun only lasts 1.5 (like Leona's stun/slow ult or Lissandra's ult), you still have Malzahar who has a single target point-and-click suppress for 2.5 seconds, but creates an AoE area that damages other enemies. And you have plenty other champions who have hard CC in their kits that's not even in their ult, like Annie passive that can be singletarget or AoE (and lasts "a duration" of about 2 seconds), Amumu who has a singletarget stun for 1 sec and a multitarget stun for 2 seconds (his ult prevents actions from being taken, so basically the same thing...but his ult also costs 200 mana and has a 110 sec cd), Cassiopeia has a multitarget stun/slow for 2 seconds...

**Literally all I want for Sona's ult is for the stun to scale to 2 or 2.5 seconds. Her ult is unique in that it's supposed to trap the enemies in a trance where they are forced to dance uncontrollably, yet the stun is so short you can't even see the animation (in a hypothetical world where you can see your champ dancing in the middle of a fight). **

A lot of people look at Sona and say she's boring, that she doesn't do anything, and that all of her "power" and "usefulness" is in her ult...but for a kit whose emphasis is placed on her "game changing ult," it doesn't really deliver. Even if they don't increase the range and hitbox, just making the stun last a little bit longer would be enough for Sona to be more of a competitive pick. It's still a skillshot, it's still an engage or disengage, but it would have so much more impact if it lasted 0.5 seconds longer.

But, you know, people would rather complain about her free poke 825 range poke that outclassed and arguably countered by Blitz's 925 range Q, Leona's 875 range E, Lux's 1175 range Q AND 1100 range E, Lulu's 925 range Q, Nautilus's 925 range Q, Thresh's 1075 range Q, and Zyra's 1100 range E. (But those are all skill shots QQ--Yeah, but land any of them on Sona and she's dead because she has paper for skin).

Emmy Cha0s3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Le Kaikai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZyiMaLfZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-03-29T23:47:29.606+0000)

But, you know, people would rather complain about her free poke 825 range poke that outclassed and arguably countered by Blitz's 925 range Q, Leona's 875 range E, Lux's 1175 range Q AND 1100 range E, Lulu's 925 range Q, Nautilus's 925 range Q, Thresh's 1075 range Q, and Zyra's 1100 range E. (But those are all skill shots QQ--Yeah, but land any of them on Sona and she's dead because she has paper for skin).

You mean her alleged, "free" "825" range poke. Due to a mix-up involving multiple shadow nerfs and a revert that failed to clarify actual intent, most sites and players don't know Hymn's actual range anymore and most don't even agree on what the incorrect range is either. Rito game coders confirmed long ago that it is returned to its original 700-units of range, however it's also worth noting that it does not prioritize enemy champions over minions unless they are within 550-units. Which is known due to a QoL buff Rito did at one point to ensure it prioritized champions within her basic attack range. Before that patch, the prioritization zone was even smaller.

Also, Hymn of Valor costs mana, so it is obviously not free.

chipndip11 votes

2.5 seconds on an aoe stun is stupid strong. She just needs a new ult, and a new basic game play pattern.

Really just give her a game play update.

Yuzuki Yukarin7 votes

First a few corrections:

  1. Sona's base AD is not "high for a caster." As a matter of fact, it's tied for 10th-lowest overall in the entire game and 3rd-lowest amongst supports. Seven of those nine below her all have on-hit passives to compensate for their low AD, including both supports below her.
  2. Lingering actives are NOT "auras," please stop using this term in relation to Sona.
  3. Sona's full combo (Staccato + Hymn initial + Hymn lingering) is only 98% AP, not 100%.

My thoughts on your idea:

  • Staccato - I like this concept. I've seen many different players suggest it over the years, I probably suggested it myself at one point. It changes the selfish nature of this passive into a team-oriented ability.
  • Hymn (Initial cast) - People cry about Sona's "auto-targeting" constantly and false propagandize it as the reason she has the lowest damage output of all supports, when fact is there are countless single-target spells with much higher damage output, even double. People suggest making it a skillshot and I question whether this would make Hymn either too powerful or too weak, depending on how it's done. Borrowing the Q from Karma's kit imo is a smart way of going about changing it into a skillshot. Based on the way sound works, it can be focused in a single direction and reverberates on contact feels accurate.
  • Hymn (Lingering active) - Essentially the same concept, but reverts it to "enhances your allies' individual damage" like it used to be, rather than how it currently is, "you do THIS MUCH extra damage completely dependent of Sona's personal selfishness." It's a good idea which once again veers her back towards teamplay.
  • Aria (Lingering active) - I understand the change, you want Sona to emphasize her allies' own strengths, rather than her current style of scaling on her own selfishness of AP. Unfortunately, your idea mainly only benefits allies that do damage and doesn't do much for pure tanks. Which isn't really a problem and this isn't much different from the way her current and old versions worked, so I think your suggestion is fine the way it is.
  • Celerity (Lingering active) - You want to return the decision-making to Sona's skill-leveling pattern and once again give meaning to extra ranks in this spell. Attack speed however is a very niche bonus effect to give teammates, which isn't a bad thing. I could see this suggestion finally moving Sona away from her constant comparison to Nami and Bard and probably making her a strong pick on Jugger'Maw compositions. I assume Sona would keep the MS aspect, it would be a mistake to remove her only form of "mobility" and you didn't mention it, but if this addition came at the cost of removing Sona's SELFISH self-double MS, I wouldn't mind in the slightest.
  • Crescendo (Active) - I don't like this at all. A 360-degree hitbox doesn't make sense on Sona, this encourages she should run up into the middle of the enemy team during a fight. As the squishiest character in League, this feels like a terrible concept. I do agree that it needs a better hitbox, considering its width was shadow nerfed to half and its range was shadow nerfed by 100 units. If not returning Crescendo to its original hitbox, perhaps its width could be changed into a cone and the range increased past its original 1k units to compensate.
  • Crescendo (Passive) - Not much to say here. I agree that this should have never been a thing. Not the 4.13 version, nor the 6.14 version. It's a failed concept and it NEEDS to be removed from her kit. Rito is intentionally using this passive as an excuse to keep Sona as a troll pick.
  • Cooldowns - Part of Sona's problem right now is that she has TOO MUCH downtime in between spells, where she's TOO VULNERABLE to enemies taking advantage of their "window of opportunity." Sona already has very little survivability as-is and if Aria's lingering active is changed to an effect that encourages fighting, her overall vulnerability to burst will just be accentuated that much more. I'll continue on this point in the next section of my post, below.
  • Power Chord (Spell-weaving) - I don't see a reason to remove this from Sona's kit, especially if she continues to use lingering actives and isn't reverted back into an aura champion. In fact, I don't even know if she still spell-weaves, does she? I literally haven't played her since she was dumpstered in patch 4.13 and this has always been a very 'unspoken' part of her kit, save for when it was nerfed twice during Beta or something. I propose, that it stay the way it SHOULD be: Sona's basic abilities have a 0.5 second global cooldown where she is unable to cast a new spell after just casting one. If Sona casts a new spell while a lingering active is still in effect, it continues to be applied for the remainder of its duration up to a MAX of 1 second.

Unanswered issues:

  • Aria (Initial cast) - "Wouldn't change much." As-is, Sona is the weakest healer in the game and what players fail to note, her old pre-4.13 heal didn't just "heal," it also increased her and her target's armor/MR for a duration. Also note, Sona is one of the VERY FEW heals/shields in the entire game that doesn't have a secondary effect(because it was removed in 4.13.) Imo, the active should once again, effectively double the effect of the lingering active on herself & her target and it still needs a higher base number on the heal as well.
  • Power Chord (Cooldowns) - As we all know, Sona's passive is dependent on the most recently-cast spell. When in patch 4.13, Sona's spells were changed to have different cooldowns, this was directly counter-intuitive to Power Chord's function and an indirect nerf to her passive. As an added issue, this also meant that Staccato had the highest uptime and in any given situation was thus the most-likely passive for you to use, especially considering the longer cooldowns on Aria and Celerity would likely mean waiting a VERY long time for them to come back up. Rito intentionally manipulated this propaganda they themselves fabricated, as an excuse to unjustifiably nerf Staccato even further than they already had. Also as a thematic issue, Sona's spells were changed away from the thematic 7 implying an octave of seven notes. From another perspective, an octave could also be 8 notes, start on Do and end on Do... I'm not suggesting all of Sona's cooldowns be returned to 7 seconds, lowering Aria and Celerity to 8 seconds would also be acceptable if the numbers are on them are right.
  • Pre-Level 6 Hard CC/Tempo - Sona is one of the VERY few supports in this game that has a complete lack of pre-6 hard CC. Having strong CC on your base kit is so important for supports in today's meta, it's literally a pre-requisite for whether champions are even viable in the support role, with VERY FEW exceptions. If Tempo were given a brief Root, then followed by its slow, this would do wonders for improving Sona's viability in League.
  • Power Chord (Lingering actives) - Another major issue with Sona, her auras were ripped out of her kit and replaced with lingering active that were initially SEVEN-HUNDRED FUCKING UNITS smaller than her auras. Fearless did give in and increase them by 50 units before she went Live, but 350 is still considered melee-range. The increase in patch 6.14 by another 50 units did VERY LITTLE to fix this issue as 400 is literally the lowest "ranged" value in League, tying Graves and mini-Gnar. As a matter-of-fact, the 4th-shortest ranged spell amongst supports is still 500 units and literally every other is 550+ units. Additionally, it's absurd for her lingering actives to literally have shorter range than her own fucking basic attack range. At the bare minimum, Sona's lingering actives must have a range of AT LEAST ~600-700 units radius.
  • Base Movement Speed - As the squishiest character in League, Sona cannot have the lowest tier of MS. This MUST be reverted to 330 at least.
  • Effective Health - Sona is the squishiest character in the game, all things considered. This used to be mitigated by the fact she gained passive armor/MR from Aria's aura. Unfortunately, Sona does not have auras anymore. Yet despite this, Meddler made the shit-stupid decision to reduce her effective HP, THE LLITERAL OPPOSITE of what should have occurred when her auras were removed. Her current base armor is fine, but it needs slightly more scaling/lvl. Contrarily, her base HP is abysmally low and needs at least a few extra points, but currently has acceptable scaling.
  • Base Mana/Aria (Mana cost) - She has been severely mana-gated throughout the history of League, Sona factually has the lowest base mana of the enchanter class. Even Bard, who has a mana-restoring passive has higher base mana than Sona, Lulu specifically had her base mana buffed BECAUSE it used to be lower than Sona's. Likewise, Aria is the most mana-inneficient heal in the game, which ironically isn't because of patch 4.13, but actually the "fuck you" nerfs in patch 4.20 that Meddler and Fearless did because Sona players wouldn't stop demanding a revert for the past 7 patches. It didn't stop us obviously, here we are almost 3 years later and still discussing Rito's unjust treatment of her. Suffice to say, Sona needs higher base mana and AT LEAST 10 shaved off Aria's cost.
  • Crescendo (Cooldown) - The cooldown is long, really long compared to similar ults like Annie, Nami and Bard. Except Sona's is weaker than all of those even if it's hitbox is to be improved. It needs a lower CD at each rank.

That's literally every problem with Sona that needs fixing for her to be viable again. I just wish a Ritoer would actually give a shit about Sona and REALLY LISTEN, not just throw lies in our faces like Meddler and Repertoir.

Ahristocats2 votes

Thing is Sona is already strong and popular in almost all elos, and this is why riot doesn't want to work on her they have a support picked in a lot of games, and wins 53% or 52% of them, they conclude that everyone loves to play this champ and have no problems with it, but i talked to so many sona mains and they all feel bad about playing this current version of Sona

i don't think you can straight buff Sona without breaking her again Part of the reason Sona feels bad to play is because she's balanced around buffing 5 allies, it's not even visible as for instance her Q deals nearly 400+100% AP if she buffs 5 allies, but it's not even certain that the allies will hit with the bonus damage and the damage will be split as they may not hit the same target, all of this ends up with a massive invisible power but remains a strong power as it makes Sona's team wins teamfights

i would just prefer if they removes her currents "Auras" for unique abilities that have counterplay, in order to make her viable in high elo as well as everywhere but like i said i doubt it will happen considering sona's current stats

AWildAPKalista5 votes

You've changed... Why have you suddenly bought into the winrate propaganda and joined the hive mind? You know better than anyone the factors that are artificially inflating her winrate. I'm looking at her pickrate right this second and it's well-below 3%. What happened to the fact that players are literally flaming and reporting Sona as a troll pick?

She's picked so infrequently in Diamond+ that her winrate in any given week is completely random due to the so few games to take data from. She's literally a liability to her team, many of her games are lost before the 20-minute mark do to the fact her presence is nonexistent at best and a hindrance otherwise. Any game that Sona is picked is literally either a 4v5 or 4v6 because of her.

Ahristocats6 votes

I might have been manipulated by all those people To be fair i'm certain of only one thing: Sona is trash past diamond 1 Everything else is not my concern and i can't really know what is true or not since i don't play below

{quoted}

You know better than anyone the factors that are artificially inflating her winrate.

there is no doubt that her win rate is inflated by factors, but riot doesn't care. Look at Meddler everytime, stating win rate ban rate pick rate w/e he wants, whenever it's convenient for him there is no doubt that if he would talk about sona, he would say "she has a decent pick rate, high win rate. This champion is fine and people like to play her, she doesn't need anything"

{quoted}

I'm looking at her pickrate right this second and it's well-below 3%.

it's not 3% but it's nearly 6% according to league of graph, i have been manipulated as i can see since it's not 12%

{quoted}

What happened to the fact that players are literally flaming and reporting Sona as a troll pick?

https://i.gyazo.com/5158ebcfe0b82da472852cd9dd69e34e.png

Emmy Cha0s3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZyiMaLfZ,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-30T11:16:23.750+0000)

it's not 3% but it's nearly 6% according to league of graph, i have been manipulated as i can see

It seems that different sites have vastly different statistics, you can't completely trust any one of them. Only Rito has the real numbers, but of course we all know they're intentionally keeping them secret. Mostly because they want to lie to us and make condescending remarks that we aren't allowed to dispute because "secret numbers say so."

Ghostcrawler himself said at the gaming whatever conference that the fact Rito keeps stats secret is inherently unfair and manipulative, but tried to make some bullshit excuse defending Rito. I don't remember what the excuse was, he was spouting so many hypocrisies that I zoned out during most of the speech.

zero3564 votes

Do you have any other examples of being flamed? Because I've seen you use that picture before. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/rc792Nbi-an-exhaustive-list-of-sonas-problems-and-how-riot-can-potentially-fixe-them Your response to FantasySniper

Ahristocats1 votes

having an other example would requiere me to play Sona in ranked and i don't want to lose

ZephyrDrake5 votes

how would i improve her? by deleting every single thread that appears saying how terrible she currently is

Rydakora6 votes

Could you please elaborate?

I’m interested in knowing what makes people dislike Sona discussion threads.

Clearly there are players who play Sona and have bad gaming experience with her.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Could you please elaborate?

I’m interested in knowing what makes people dislike Sona discussion threads.

Clearly there are players who play Sona and have bad gaming experience with her.

i have had bad gameplay experiences with champions that everyone says they are OP as fuck... does that mean they need to be buffed?

Rydakora1 votes

Not necessary buffed, however a change would be welcome.

Mostly people, who write at forums, ask for a change for the better. We, the players, are masters at recognizing strong aspects of a champion. Sometimes this aspect is intentional and sometimes it is over performing. The players are passionate about their favorite champions and wishes to see their champion / game in a healthier state. Thus, it is only natural they talk about the problems and ask for a change. It comes out as a vocal outcry because the issues have been talked for a long time. Also since in the end the game designers have the final say.

In Sona’s case her most powerful aspect is damage and because of it everything else in her kit feels weak. This leads to the bad play experience and creates frustration to some players. I’m fully aware that there are players who enjoys Sona being a secondary AP carry and are happy to play her as one. At the same time, there are players who wants Sona to have deeper gameplay than damage.

AWildAPKalista5 votes

The thing is though, that her damage isn't even truly "powerful." Sona has the lowest damage potential, both in bases and scalings, of any support character in League. It "feels" strong because of the fact she has to build artificial numbers in the form of Spellblade and Echo to literally do anything. Her kit feels weak because it is weak. Very weak.

There's a reason she loses her team a lot of games before the 20-minute mark. She's a liability without artificial scalings and competent teams will hyper-snowball off of farming her at every possible chance.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Not necessary buffed, however a change would be welcome.

Mostly people, who write at forums, ask for a change for the better. We, the players, are masters at recognizing strong aspects of a champion. Sometimes this aspect is intentional and sometimes it is over performing. The players are passionate about their favorite champions and wishes to see their champion / game in a healthier state. Thus, it is only natural they talk about the problems and ask for a change. It comes out as a vocal outcry because the issues have been talked for a long time. Also since in the end the game designers have the final say.

In Sona’s case her most powerful aspect is damage and because of it everything else in her kit feels weak. This leads to the bad play experience and creates frustration to some players. I’m fully aware that there are players who enjoys Sona being a secondary AP carry and are happy to play her as one. At the same time, there are players who wants Sona to have deeper gameplay than damage.

every single change i have seen for Sona is literally either "buff her numbers to be insane!" or "change this into a completely different champion" there are extremely few that aren't that. I am actually sick of it, as a Sona main myself. She could use small tweaks here and there but then again the entire champion roster could use tweaks and i rather have actual decent support items that i can use effectively rather than trying to build the same items over and over and over and over and over regardless of who i am playing as a support... unless you are Brand and company which just build like a midlaner because why not

Rydakora4 votes

Playerbase is frustrated because they don’t receive feedback from the game designers about the topic. This frustration leads to the vocal outcry that we see on these forums. The level of the outcry depends on how long the issue been around.

Your answer to OP’s question ”Sona, how you would improve her” is that you don’t have problems with Sona particularly, however the support items are stale. And to fix this, is to change current support items and possibly add new ones to create diversity between them. This comment came a long way from your original one.

I would like to hear your ideas how to change current support items and what direction should they go.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Playerbase is frustrated because they don’t receive feedback from the game designers about the topic. This frustration leads to the vocal outcry that we see on these forums. The level of the outcry depends on how long the issue been around.

Your answer to OP’s question ”Sona, how you would improve her” is that you don’t have problems with Sona particularly, however the support items are stale. And to fix this, is to change current support items and possibly add new ones to create diversity between them. This comment came a long way from your original one.

I would like to hear your ideas how to change current support items and what direction should they go.

This is some what of an issue though. If we introduce to many more support items geared towards healer/ shield characters, we open the door to characters who could heal or shield away whole engagements with 1-2 casts. If we introduce to many more "tanky" items for more damage sponge / engage champions, we open the door to characters who can be as hard to kill as a full built tank (but at a cost of several thousand less gold to get there). This also doesn't touch on splash issues like Darius or Garen building "support" items because they can trade a little damage for a lot of defense at a reduced price.

All this said, i do agree with you. I think it would be lovely if there were maybe another like 4-6 "support" items in the game so we didn't always see one of two possible combinations depending on character.

zero3563 votes

Most of the threads I see either talk about what's wrong with her and/or how to fix them And not wrong as in terrible but wrong in a balance sense.

Dominick Destine5 votes

Bigger bust. Bigger Etwahl. Bunny ears. etc.

Oh you mean in game? that's simple, un-gut her numbers or give her actual auras rather than one-shot low duration buffs.

Pika3103 votes

Actually, I prefer cat ears or angel wings.

ERM, ahem. What I mean to say is, I agree with your suggestion in reverting her nerfs and reverting/giving her a similar kit to her old one.

ACTI0NBASTARD3 votes

To be honest? Scrap the aura gimmick. It adds invisible power that your team seldom notices and makes her a nightmare to balance. I love Sona to death, but ffs, she's a musician. Make her kit based more on that. That would make me happy.

Yuzuki Yukarin6 votes

She doesn't even use auras. Sona hasn't had auras since patch 4.13, when they were replaced by lingering actives. I don't understand why players keep crying about something that literally isn't even part of her kit anymore.

ACTI0NBASTARD1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yuzuki Yukarin,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZyiMaLfZ,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-03-30T10:46:00.360+0000)

She doesn't even use auras. Sona hasn't had auras since patch 4.13, when they were replaced by lingering actives. I don't understand why players keep crying about something that literally isn't even part of her kit anymore.

Lingering actives, in an area around her. That effect allies in range of said "lingering actives". Sounds kind of like those auras she used to make use of. Oh wait. You can call a cow a horse. Doesn't make it a fucking horse, lol.

Pika3102 votes

...and you can call Mordekaiser a marksman. That doesn't make him a fucking marksman. Stop blindly listening to every lie Rito tells you, the fact is Sona doesn't use auras anymore.

Ralanr3 votes

Imo I'd make Sona more of a combo champion where different combos of abilities gave different effects like Ryze.

Sonasaurous1 votes

Music combos :O

zero3562 votes

Invoker Sona? Invoker Sona. So much possibilities, so many potential problems And if you don't know, Invoker is a DOTA Hero.

SayoriIsBigSad2 votes

I think it'd be cool if she was a buff/debuff champion based on how close they were to her. Please right next to her will hear the full brunt of her music and people farther away kinda hear the echos or the afteraffects.

Emmy Cha0s3 votes

I do like this idea very much and it would be a reasonable justification to returning her spells to their full 1k-unit range. It's not unrealistic coding-wise in the slightest and I do remember it being suggested a few times before.

The next set of questions to ask:

  • Is the fall-off linear, exponential or incremental?
  • In the cases of linear and exponential, at what radius does it begin to fall off?
  • How does this affect Sona herself, does she get the full effect or a fraction?
SayoriIsBigSad1 votes

I think it could be coded since they did something with tiamat to make the damage falloff seem more linear, the heal would be overtime kind of like lucio from overwatch. And the fall off would probably be either linear or incremental because if it were exponential she would either need to be hugging her adc all the time or have ridiculously large radius. I think her Q would provide a magic damage boost to autos based on their distance to sona and the speed bonus as well. I think as the speed up will be the same. As the player of the music I think she would get full effect for everything except the heal. I'm not exactly sure how well this would work as I'm not a game designer but this is just my two cents.

Emmy Cha0s2 votes

Ah, it sounds like you interpreted exponential fall-off to mean quickly and then slow down as it moves out. This is indeed an exponential equation, but what I had actually implied was that it would decline slowly and then fall-off more quickly as it moved it. Thusly, you wouldn't have to sit on top of her for a strong effect, but people at the edge would get next to no benefit.

You don't need to be a game designer to have a good idea of how ideas work. Hell, the majority of suggestions I see by players are comparably better than the shit Rito throws at us. More often than not, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out the mislogic "balance" uses to change this game.

chipndip12 votes

I'd rework Sona by making her an Enchanter/Disruptor hybrid that throws out aoes attacks to target locations, where sounds will ring for a small period of time, effecting enemies and allies in those aoes. Players would gain higher reward for both tagging their intended targets with their spells and for placing their spells in spots where they'll be fought in for longer by allies or enemies:

Passive: Sona plays music that gradually build up to her 4th spell. On her 4th spell, she gets additional effects.

Q: Sona shoots a linear, detonating shot that damages and debuffs enemies while buffing ally damage in an aoe upon impact with an enemy unit, allied champion, or after traveling a set distance. Effected enemies take more damage and effected allies deal more damage. Getting hit directly keeps the buff/debuff for a set duration, while standing in the short-lived aoe applies those effects until you walk out of it/it disappears. Powerchord bonus increases the move's damage and increases the buff/debuff effect.

W: Sona shoots a non-damaging, lobbing skill shot that decreases enemy damage and heals allies in an aoe upon impact. Enemies that get hit directly are debuffed for a short duration, and allies that are hit directly get the full healing value immediately, while standing in the short-lived aoe reduces enemy damage until they walk out of it while allies are healed over the duration of the aoe. Powerchord bonus increases healing potency for allies and the debuff effect for enemies.

E: Sona shoots a lobbing skill shot that damages and slows enemies while speeding up allies in an aoe. Enemies directly hit are damaged and slowed for a set duration, and allies hit directly are sped up for a set duration. Enemies that stand in the short-lived aoe take no damage, but are slowed for a reduced amount until they leave the aoe, while allies are sped up for a reduced amount until they leave the aoe. Powerchord bonus turns the impact slow into a small snare, increases the potency of the lingering slow, increases the potency of the impact speed boost for allies, and increases the potency of the lingering speed boost for allies.

R: Sona throws out a damaging aoe skill shot (not sure if it should be the usual "fat line" or if it should be even more circles) that causes enemies hit to dance for 1.5 seconds while debuffing them for a duration. Any enemy hit directly by Sona's spells with this debuff active causes her spells to leave behind the Powerchord versions of their lingering aoes.

Pika3103 votes

This feels like a complex version of Orianna's kit, whose kit is already considered complex on its own. The way the skills act(lobs and whatnot) doesn't feel very "Musical" and blatantly contradict the laws of audio physics. In your suggestion, Sona also loses the contrast in her kit between her spells and her passive. The point of Sona's basic abilities are to enhance your allies, you've kept this aspect. Power Chord's purpose is to hinder enemies, but in your hastiness you abandoned this important thematic nuance. You've ended up losing the basic themes of Sona and this kit just doesn't feel right for her character.

I'd suggest this would work on a brand new enchanter, it isn't Sona-like at all.

chipndip13 votes

Well, consider Sona's current issues:

  • She's so simple that she can't get major gains doing anything.

  • She fights too close to enemies to be safe.

  • No hard cc.

  • Tying her power to level 16.

Powerchord's issue as a passive is that it's tied to a 550 range AA, but it's highly important to her game play, unlike other champs with AA passives like Lux and Karma who can ditch using these passives later in the game. That debilitating effect need to be put within the spells themselves, rather than Sona's AAs, or you're never fixing this champ because you'll constantly find yourself floating way too close to fights.

This rework idea covers:

  • Her lack of hard cc issue, but since the root is meant to be a bit short, Sona would still weaker to hard engage and ganks than other enchanters.

  • Her fighting range issue, since she'd operate by hitting key enemies or allies with spells from a distance rather than auto-attacking all the time. (Half the time I'm using W to shield minion aggro more than I'm shielding enemy fire when trading in lane...it's actually obnoxious)

  • Her simplicity issue, since there's something to mess up now.

  • Tying power to level 16, since the extra effects for her ult won't need levels anymore.

However, for her W, since it's a non-damaging sustain spell, it could simply "ring" in a specified area, rather than being a skill shot. Those in the vicinity on cast get the immediate effect, and those that enter the lingering aoe would get the aoe effect. As for not feeling like Sona...current Sona will never be what you want her to be. She'll never be viable in competitive elos without being broken in solo queue. Hell, when she was barely worth a pick in pro play, her win rate in ranked was like 60%. Sona's current foundation is flawed. She's going to need some pretty big work to make her not flawed, but she'd keep her aoe and music themes while she'd gain tools that supports need in 2017...like hard cc on a basic freaking spell. Even Soraka has that in some fashion.

zero3563 votes

One, Sona stays simple. This isn't just me, Riot has said that any changes to Sona will keep her simple. Of course, easy to learn, hard to master is still an option (hopefully)

Two, range. Positioning is a big deal of Sona. Could it be done better? Yes. But I think making her weave in and out of a fight for maximum effectiveness is still a good idea.

Three, eh. Give her hard CC. Don't give her hard CC. I don't really care. A harder slow (or a stun, dependent on other changes) from current e-passive would help immensely.

Jhin Agree. Supports getting to level 16 is unlikely so why make a support champion's strength tied to levels? If it was level by level, maybe, but the problem still stands.

chipndip12 votes

All I'm saying is this:

  1. Any support champ that doesn't have hard cc will never be viable in higher tier play. It isn't happening.

  2. Riot ALSO said they needed to up the skill floor of the game in general. Newer champs are basically overriding older champs in viability in niches.

  3. If you tie Sona's power to AAs as an incredibly squishy enchanter champion, we'll never leave square one.

If you want Sona to truly leave this bad place of being too strong in low elo and too lousy in high elo, she needs a make over, not another "mini-rework". Think bigger or you're just retreading in the same pitfalls that we already fell through.

zero3561 votes

Fair enough points As for thinking bigger, see my comment above or below or wherever it is. I am thinking big.

Pika3103 votes

Sona had no problem proccing Power Chord at 550 range pre-4.13. The average range for an ADC, the squishiest role on the Rift is only 550 units. Why is this magically a problem now, all of a sudden? It's not and you don't need to destroy Sona's identity to fix something that isn't broke.

The ACTUAL reason why Sona is too short-range is the THREE FUCKING SPELLS that are each 400-units each and the fact an unjustifiably large portion of Hymn's overall mediocre damage is trapped in its on-hit. Fix both of these shit ideas and you won't have to unnecessarily butcher Sona's passive.


Placing hard CC in Sona's kit literally does not require any other changes. Pick a spell or passive and place it there, nothing more. For example: somebody already suggested putting a root on Tempo. Bam, problem fixed.


The concept of "throwing sound" and having its center of origin fixed at a position other than the actual source makes literally no sense. Even worse, have you ever tried a skillshot heal? It's aids. Absolute aids. There's a reason nearly every other heal in the game is single-target, because the idea of a skillshot heal is fucking terrible.


You propagandize bullshit like "broken in solo queue," "60% winrate," "flawed foundation," none of this is even true. Why the hell do I have to remind you that her actual foundation, her pre-4.13 kit was in fact VERY balanced. Viable in all elos, including LCS and NOT broken in solo queue. The fact that what you're falsely claiming "isn't possible," matter of fact WAS already the case is inherent proof that it IS IN FACT possible and your idea of ruining her identity is unjustified. Rito could literally revert her to pre-4.13 and know she would be healthy, because she was matter-of-fact healthy with that kit. Hindsight is 20-20, we know the outcome, we know it'd be successful, now Rito just needs to pull their heads out of their asses and fucking revert her already.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Sona had no problem proccing Power Chord at 550 range pre-4.13. The average range for an ADC, the squishiest role on the Rift is only 550 units. Why is this magically a problem now, all of a sudden? It's not and you don't need to destroy Sona's identity to fix something that isn't broke.

Why it's a problem now:

  • We're YEARS BEYOND 4.13.

  • There's way more mobility now. There's way more divers and assassins now.

  • Things like "Sona gets free resistances for pressing W" are long gone.

Long story short: It's outdated.

The ACTUAL reason why Sona is too short-range is the THREE FUCKING SPELLS that are each 400-units each and the fact an unjustifiably large portion of Hymn's overall mediocre damage is trapped in its on-hit. Fix both of these shit ideas and you won't have to unnecessarily butcher Sona's passive.

The spells aren't 400 units. The "snuggle zones" tied to her Powerchord passive are all 400 units. Her W's 1k range and her Q is...a fucking mystery at this point. They just turn out to be useless without Sona getting close to everyone, which is what we'd want to AVOID if anything.

Placing hard CC in Sona's kit literally does not require any other changes. Pick a spell or passive and place it there, nothing more. For example: somebody already suggested putting a root on Tempo. Bam, problem fixed.

So she gets a targeted snare now? EVERY THREE SPELLS? That's fucking ridiculous. I'd hate to be a marksman playing against a no-counter-play snare every third spell cast. The hell is that?

The concept of "throwing sound" and having its center of origin fixed at a position other than the actual source makes literally no sense. Even worse, have you ever tried a skillshot heal? It's aids. Absolute aids. There's a reason nearly every other heal in the game is single-target, because the idea of a skillshot heal is fucking terrible.

That's why I said you could make the heal an aoe "ring" from a separate position. In hindsight, a heal with a travel time is sort of crazy. Since it's a non-damaging move, it can be an instant cast at a distance, and you could even CHOOSE her heal targets.

You propagandize bullshit like "broken in solo queue," "60% winrate," "flawed foundation," none of this is even true.

That's exactly what happened. She had a 33% LCS win rate and a 60% solo queue win rate at the same time. You can't just ignore reality.

Why the hell do I have to remind you that her actual foundation, her pre-4.13 kit was in fact VERY balanced.

It was filled to the brim with "uninteractive game play" where Sona could just sort of lazy around in the background, giving away free stats while being 1k units away from the fight. No one should be able to influence a fight with a 1k unit aura they don't have to put any thought into utilizing.

Viable in all elos, including LCS and NOT broken in solo queue. The fact that what you're falsely claiming "isn't possible," matter of fact WAS already the case is inherent proof that it IS IN FACT possible and your idea of ruining her identity is unjustified. Rito could literally revert her to pre-4.13 and know she would be healthy, because she was matter-of-fact healthy with that kit. Hindsight is 20-20, we know the outcome, we know it'd be successful, now Rito just needs to pull their heads out of their asses and fucking revert her already.

I think you just have a huge crush on something that was moderately auto-pilot and had little counter-play to it, and that's the type of game play LoL as a game is steering away from. Just because Sona's current iteration isn't great, doesn't mean her previous iteration was. They're both bad for the times. Time to move on.

Pika3102 votes

{quoted}

Long story short: It's outdated.

Consider this: there are a grand total of THREE ADCs in this game whose base attack range is above 550. Which means 80%+ all have the same range as Sona or lower. If 550 or less is considered safe enough for them to output CONSISTENT damage, it's just fine for Sona only once every third spell. If you're still adamant this isn't good enough, why not take the increased attack range Rito was testing on Celerity a while back and throw it on Power Chord. Increasing her range by 50 units should more than satisfy you.

There's literally no reason to dumpster Power Chord and destroy Sona's identity when all it needs are buffs and improvements.

The spells aren't 400 units. The "snuggle zones" tied to her Powerchord passive are all 400 units.

Obviously this is what I'm referring to. Good job, I honestly didn't think anyone actually needed clarification on this.

So she gets a targeted snare now? EVERY THREE SPELLS? That's fucking ridiculous. I'd hate to be a marksman playing against a no-counter-play snare every third spell cast. The hell is that?

"The hell it is," is something far less toxic than a Blitz just walking up on you and pressing E. A Morgana spamming Binding from over 1k units away. Thresh walking up and Flaying you into a guaranteed Hook. Annie pressing Q for her no-counter-play targeted STUN.

That's why I said you could make the heal an aoe "ring" from a separate position. In hindsight, a heal with a travel time is sort of crazy. Since it's a non-damaging move, it can be an instant cast at a distance, and you could even CHOOSE her heal targets.

So now Sona's music is coming out of another champion's model? This makes even less sense than the initial suggestion.

That's exactly what happened. She had a 33% LCS win rate and a 60% solo queue win rate at the same time. You can't just ignore reality.

Either you fabricating these numbers out of thin air or you're ignoring the fact I said pre-4.13 and are instead manipulating some other random time in her play history that suits your propaganda.

My fact still stands: before she was dumpstered in patch 4.13, Sona was globally known to be a balanced character and actually just second banana to Nami. Every single pro player said it,"There was very little reason to EVER pick Sona when Nami is available, outside of player preference." Because although Sona was just a weaker version of Nami, she was still marginally strong enough to played as a Nami substitute.

It was filled to the brim with "uninteractive game play" where Sona could just sort of lazy around in the background, giving away free stats while being 1k units away from the fight. No one should be able to influence a fight with a 1k unit aura they don't have to put any thought into utilizing.

Now you're just fabricating the exact same lies word for word that Fearless used as an excuse to dumpster Sona's kit. No Sona player worth their bread would EVER play back and sit on her auras. Watch ANY Sona above bronze from pre-4.13 and you WILL see her aggressively staying close enough to contribute her own DPS. The lie that Sona was a "passive" character was bleated only by people that had NEVER actually played Sona themselves and just read her kit without context or personal experience.

You are literally in the exact same mindset that put Sona in the miserable state she's at now.

I think you just have a huge crush on something that was moderately auto-pilot and had little counter-play to it, and that's the type of game play LoL as a game is steering away from. Just because Sona's current iteration isn't great, doesn't mean her previous iteration was. They're both bad for the times. Time to move on.

I'm sorry that you never got to play Sona before Fearless guttered her kit, but that's not my problem. It's time you admit that people who actually DID get to play her before then, actually know her real playstyle and you need to set your ego aside learn from our experience we're trying to impart on you. In season 3 alone, I probably had over a thousand games on Sona, I know what I'm talking about.

chipndip11 votes

Look, dude, I'm not about to do this thing where you claim blatant truths are "lies" because you don't like them personally. It boils down to this:

You have a huge fixation on Sona's original kit, and you honestly think that making Sona a champ that can choose to just float around at max distance away from a fight is actually a smart and healthy move for this game and its direction. It isn't. Blatantly isn't. "I played Sona a lot when she had a huge ball of stats emanating from up to 1k range away from her. Trust me, EVERYBODY loved the game play interactions resulting from this" isn't exactly a strong claim. Being non-interactive, but powerful, is the same thing that lead Riot to power-nerfing Soraka in season 6, as I recall. Nobody likes that shit. If your claim is that Riot didn't do enough to make Sona's kit appreciable with the rework, that's one thing. If your claim is that she didn't need one in the first place, I'm not agreeing with you and I doubt you'll find many non-Sona players that will. You're in the same boat of people that whined about pre-rework Fiora, and Poppy, and Taric, and Sion, and we don't fuck with those guys either.

Still, as a side note:

  • You realize that people can "throw their voice", right? Having W appear as an instant aoe separate from her isn't that far fetched when ventriloquists do it all the time with puppets.

  • You're telling me my ideas are bad when you think an auto-targeted 550 range snare every 3rd spell is more balanced than Blitz having to walk into melee range or Morgana having to land a skill shot?

  • You refer to elements of Sona's passive as her "spells", and when I correct you, you say "Duh that's what I mean! :D"? Yeah, get out of here with that. You tried to frame it as if Q and W's bolts have 400 range a piece.

  • You're just too delusional to realize that this iteration IS THE "BUFFS AND IMPROVEMENTS" ITERATION OF SONA. The foundation of this game play isn't going to work. Period. Like I said, it rofl-stomps lower elos while never being good enough for higher elos/pro play. We already went through this mid-way through season 6. It's IMPOSSIBLE with this kit. There needs to be changes to the foundation of her game play pattern so she can keep up with today's supports. So she can effectively roam, disengage ganks, and so on...at least more so than she can now (which is basically "nada" until level 6).

Ultimately, you're not about making Sona a better champion for people playing as, with, and against her. You're about crying over spilt milk.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Look, dude, I'm not about to do this thing where you claim blatant truths are "lies" because you don't like them personally. It boils down to this:

You have a huge fixation on Sona's original kit, and you honestly think that making Sona a champ that can choose to just float around at max distance away from a fight is actually a smart and healthy move for this game and its direction. It isn't. Blatantly isn't. "I played Sona a lot when she had a huge ball of stats emanating from up to 1k range away from her. Trust me, EVERYBODY loved the game play interactions resulting from this" isn't exactly a strong claim. Being non-interactive, but powerful, is the same thing that lead Riot to power-nerfing Soraka in season 6, as I recall. Nobody likes that shit. If your claim is that Riot didn't do enough to make Sona's kit appreciable with the rework, that's one thing. If your claim is that she didn't need one in the first place, I'm not agreeing with you and I doubt you'll find many non-Sona players that will. You're in the same boat of people that whined about pre-rework Fiora, and Poppy, and Taric, and Sion, and we don't fuck with those guys either.

Still, as a side note:

  • You realize that people can "throw their voice", right? Having W appear as an instant aoe separate from her isn't that far fetched when ventriloquists do it all the time with puppets.

  • You're telling me my ideas are bad when you think an auto-targeted 550 range snare every 3rd spell is more balanced than Blitz having to walk into melee range or Morgana having to land a skill shot?

  • You refer to elements of Sona's passive as her "spells", and when I correct you, you say "Duh that's what I mean! :D"? Yeah, get out of here with that. You tried to frame it as if Q and W's bolts have 400 range a piece.

  • You're just too delusional to realize that this iteration IS THE "BUFFS AND IMPROVEMENTS" ITERATION OF SONA. The foundation of this game play isn't going to work. Period. Like I said, it rofl-stomps lower elos while never being good enough for higher elos/pro play. We already went through this mid-way through season 6. It's IMPOSSIBLE with this kit. There needs to be changes to the foundation of her game play pattern so she can keep up with today's supports. So she can effectively roam, disengage ganks, and so on...at least more so than she can now (which is basically "nada" until level 6).

Ultimately, you're not about making Sona a better champion for people playing as, with, and against her. You're about crying over spilt milk.

I saw this and the "throwing one's voice" thing and some other points you made got me thinking. What do you think about knock back kind of ability on one of her empowered skills. Something directional so that it's not universally amazing, but good enough that you can mini disengage fights OR if you position well, you can start fights without having to blow you ultimate.

The idea would work kind of like Janna's ultimate, Sona pushes the enemy in a direction based off where Sona hit the target from. So if they are running away the ability is bad since it will just push them further from you are your team. But you could circle around a player(s) and push them towards your team. You could land the empowered attack to disengage champions like Darius orThresh who pull their targets in close.

This idea works better with a Sona who is built around medium cooldown high impact spells, rather then current Sona who could just chain gun you and push the target ever 6-7 seconds.

dunder kill1 votes

There no way of making Sona with her current kit viable in both high and low ELO. If they made her viable in high ELO, she would be oppressively strong in low ELO.

She needs a full-scale rework

Yuzuki Yukarin5 votes

This is literally a full rework that he suggested... One that is intentionally designed to steer her away from her current "burst-cheese" style that bronzies are abusing.

dunder kill2 votes

I'm not allowed to agree? What is wrong with you people? Lol

Emmy Cha0s3 votes

You weren't clear about voicing your agreement whatsoever. The way you worded your initial statement made it sound like you believe the OP to just be a series of buffs and not an actual rework.

chipndip11 votes

He said at the bottom "She needs a full scale rework"...

Emmy Cha0s1 votes

My point exactly. Implying the belief I just accentuated.

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