Maokai overnerfed, please re-evaluate

Valhalla Rising·Dec 26, 2015·75 votes·3,351 views

I doubt they wanted his pick rate to drop to 1.7%.. think about how many Maokai mains ditched their champion because his ult was gutted, on top of multiple smaller nerfs in previous patches.

I agree his ult cooldown was a bit too low but damn it's way too high now.

It was 40/30/20 seconds, and now is 60/50/40. to me the obvious correct cooldown should be 50/40/30.

That alone would definitely remove Maokai from the dumpster without placing him on the roof.

If not please buff him elsewhere, or revert older nerfs.

53 Comments

JbelsDec 26, 201510 votes

Yeah, I can't help but feel like Maokai just doesn't bring enough to the table compared to other tanks. He has very minimal CC for tank, and his damage isn't really anything special either (at least compared to other tanks like Sion, Tahm Kench, Poppy, Gragas, etc.)

EndlessSorcererDec 26, 201519 votes

Maokai is one of those champions whose actual power isn't always obvious.

His passive's heal and his ultimate's damage reduction provide a lot of survivability for himself and his team during teams. This cannot be understated since 20% damage reduction in an AOE around you is huge and so many spells are used during teamfights you can typically proc your heal every other autoattack.

His Q and W are good for peeling or catching a target since they provide a good amount of CC when combined on a low cooldown.

His E provides vision around it allowing you to safely scout objectives and providing a short duration "ward".

He does have issues against bruisers (i.e. Trundle, Mundo, Darius, Garen) since they will typically win most duels at all stages of the game.

EmittingXsDec 26, 20154 votes

i agree with you here. "team" is what sits at the core of maokai in comparison to other tanky champs. maokai can do little to NOTHING when alone but when he's with his team, his true potential shines.

i always pick him up in whatever featured game mode is available because he can do so much with little difficulty. he fits into almost every team composition too which is amazing. no one really expects him to kick so much ass but he can. for example, in the Poro King mode, everyones likes to pick champs they personally like or who can do straight up damage, but with maokai, he can ensure the safety of those squishies and still get some kills.

he's pretty solid in such situations, but he could use a buff or two to help him survive SR games by himself.

Valhalla RisingDec 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Maokai is one of those champions whose actual power isn't always obvious.

His passive's heal and his ultimate's damage reduction provide a lot of survivability for himself and his team during teams. This cannot be understated since 20% damage reduction in an AOE around you is huge and so many spells are used during teamfights you can typically proc your heal every other autoattack.

His Q and W are good for peeling or catching a target since they provide a good amount of CC when combined on a low cooldown.

His E provides vision around it allowing you to safely scout objectives and providing a short duration "ward".

He does have issues against bruisers (i.e. Trundle, Mundo, Darius, Garen) since they will typically win most duels at all stages of the game.

agreed his potential is strong but honestly hard to utilize, it's not always possible or the best idea to be in range of an allied maokai drawing aggro, plus there is the mana costs.

A Miss FortuneDec 26, 20153 votes

I think by lowering his mana costs it would be enough to make Maokai more appropriate in this meta. It wouldn't give Maokai anymore kill potential at all with his mediocre damage, but it would definitely allow him to stay safer early game; where he does tend to get demolished to the point of barely being relevant.

LordForrestDec 27, 20153 votes

Before this season my core build for Maokai was item 3174 item 3025 item 3065 and i literally had no mana issues besides maybe the first clear after my blue buff ended. Sadly, you can no longer do this because of that stupid change to sheen.

Edit- Why is this being downvoted? With just those 3 items i was a massive threat and was capable of winning 3 v 1 fights.

TurquoiseYoshiDec 27, 20152 votes

That Sheen change was absurd. Nobody was complaining about it, why did they decide to change it? It was so bad, they had to remake the AP jungle item because the Sheen one, which had worked okay for half a season, was made pretty crap by the Sheen changes. It's like they had an idea to make Sheen more available to every AP champion before realizing that that would be like adding armor/MR to Zeal to make it more available to tanks/bruisers.

GrReaper96Dec 27, 20151 votes

Cause item 3078 wanted to be more famous

High5Dec 27, 20151 votes

Squishy targets are highly susceptible though. They want to keep their distance and you have a point and click root into an interrupt with Mao.

Other tanks and juggernauts don't have the same great iniation, which makes Mao great in those situations.

terkmcDec 27, 20152 votes

He has like 3 cc, one of which is a targeted invulnerable dash root and another is a spammable aoe knock up/back. His CC is fine, one of the best even for picks and in fight cc (not initiation), but the problem lie in his damage/ult nerf

JbelsDec 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He has like 3 cc, one of which is a targeted invulnerable dash root and another is a spammable aoe knock up/back. His CC is fine, one of the best even for picks and in fight cc (not initiation), but the problem lie in his damage/ult nerf

When I say Minimal CC, I mean he more than often can't apply it to more than one person. The slow from E is very situational and doesn't really affect anyone who has a dash (as they can dash away from the sapling before it even arms) , His Q is very local, landing the knock-up on it seems only possible if you W'd to someone first. Getting multiple people into it is something I very rarely do. His W is amazing, however. Untargetable dash with hard CC and max health damage? Like, holy carp. His other CC's might be a bit lackluster for a tank, but that W is awesome

terkmcDec 27, 20153 votes

Like, holy carp

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc86/Hipuks/HolyCarp.jpg

JbelsDec 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc86/Hipuks/HolyCarp.jpg

and now I'm glad I went back to switch the r and the a

High5Dec 27, 20151 votes

Mao's always been an off tank when played properally. He does a surprising amount of damage with an AP item or two. Level q first and smash faces. His base damage isn't as high as someone like Naut, which makes laning harder though.

I've always found the passive to be unreliable, but maybe with Corruption Pot it's better?

LOL SpammerDec 26, 20159 votes

Galio : 1.7% pick rate eh? What can I do to get that popular?

RakvirDec 27, 20151 votes

But when you DO find the team that doesn't screw around long enough for his contribution to be meaningful...ohhhh BABY! :D

kaltenashesDec 26, 20158 votes

riot nerfed him cause they were tired of seeing him in lcs

LordForrestDec 27, 20155 votes

Lol, yet we continue to see other champs that are far more sickening all the damn time. cough LeeSin cough

kaltenashesDec 27, 20154 votes

cough Elise RekSai cough

SquarefighterDec 27, 20151 votes

Rek'Sai has been nerfed over and over again tho.

LordForrestDec 28, 20151 votes

Elise actually was actually useless for a season or two and rek sai is only really viable with teams with good communication after the nerf streak she went on.

kaltenashesDec 28, 20151 votes

that stun tough, her q in spider form

LordForrestDec 28, 20151 votes

Yeah, but for awhile all she was, was a stun, because she was just so mediocre that other champs were much better picks. Of course they fixed that and she became an unholy terror.

kaltenashesDec 28, 20151 votes

yeah, the time when she was buffed she was permaban in every high elo, i dont know what bout now, riot only nerfed her spiderlings

LordForrestDec 28, 20151 votes

Sometimes all it takes is a nerf, even if it doesn't actually fix anything because all of the FOTM players will drop them thinking they were dumpstered

LhostalisDec 26, 20156 votes

Yeah, he's kinda not viable AT ALL. REALLY high mana costs without much reward, tankyness is almost non-existent compared to other options, and overall he's just trash now. You done fucked up now riot.

SpecterVonBarenDec 27, 20156 votes

I hate that they made no considerations for jungle Maokai with the nerfs. Instead of tailoring his nerfs to top lane where he was too strong, they just nerfed him across the board, making him almost exclusively a top laner.

Why not give this buff to his passive to make it even more interesting?

Sap Magic

Maokai draws energy from spells cast in his vicinity, gaining a charge whenever a nearby champion, including himself, uses an ability, capping at 5. Upon reaching 5 charges, Maokai's next basic attack consumes all charges to heal him for 5 / 6 / 7% maximum health and 2/3/4% maximum mana

LordForrestDec 28, 20151 votes

If they did that i would be totally ok with having to drop item 3174 from my build so i don't over cap on cdr

TaoistMasterDec 26, 20154 votes

I miss his old ult and longer W range.

OwltearsDec 26, 20154 votes

Finally a Maokai post that talks about his ult! I only play him in ARAMS now because of how over nerfed he is. I like your idea for his ult cooldown, it sounds WAY better then some 40second wait to hear my teammates rage cause I can't stop damage for them.

TengrichanDec 26, 20154 votes

Also change his attack animation to the one where his passive is up.It would be so helpful.

The Bearded BardDec 26, 20152 votes

I dropped him a couple months after they changed his kit from ' can either dive heavy priority targets and lock them down/kill them or chill with the carry and peal for them while decreasing the entire team's damage' to 'can only stay with the carry and peal for them'. Because only Amumu DrMundo Garen LeeSin Malphite Nautilus Nasus Rammus Renekton RekSai Volibear TahmKench are allowed to be able to engage on squishies instead of being peal slaves.

Boring as fuck now.

BisaknospDec 26, 20152 votes

i agree with the ultimate part but they also overnerfed its damage he can store and deal with his ulti they cut it in half if i remember correctly? i think thats it he really doesnt need buffs for his other abilities

HorseProofBaconDec 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I doubt they wanted his pick rate to drop to 1.7%.. think about how many Maokai mains ditched their champion because his ult was gutted, on top of multiple smaller nerfs in previous patches.

I agree his ult cooldown was a bit too low but damn it's way too high now.

It was 40/30/20 seconds, and now is 60/50/40. to me the obvious correct cooldown should be 50/40/30.

That alone would definitely remove Maokai from the dumpster without placing him on the roof.

If not please buff him elsewhere.

Actually, it's probably EXACTLY what rito wanted. Rito has a history of gutting champions to trash status when they don't feel like actually dealing with them at the moment (see eve and countless others seasons). To them, it's better nobody plays them than actually dealing with the problem itself. Eventually they might get around to actually re-balancing him, in a year or so.

GankLordDec 27, 20152 votes

Well he can't jungle now it's just not viable anymore and that was my favorite place to play him in the jungle

UrPalAlDec 27, 20151 votes

He's doing fine: http://champion.gg/champion/Maokai

On top of that, it's important to remember that Maokai is a champion who's power often rests within his team, so his own power doesn't always seem apparent. It's kind of like Sejuani, remember how long it even took people to realize how strong she was, even after the cinderhulk changes?

Maokai is in a very balanced spot right now, let's not change that.

Sightless66Dec 27, 20151 votes

It's kind of like Sejuani, remember how long it even took people to realize how strong she was, even after the cinderhulk changes?

Uh... no. People already knew Sejuani was going to be broken before the cinderhulk changes released. Riot actually specifically mentioned her in the Cinderhulk patch notes and said that they knew people thought she would be broken but they wanted to give her a chance. She was being abused literally the day the patch released. She was already rather highly played before the cinderhulk patch hit as well.

As for Maokai.... what are you citing to say he is "doing fine"? None of his champion.gg stats look good. He has a mediocre winrate despite being rarely picked, his overall placement is one of the worst, and he's one of the least popular champions in the game. None of those are good things. At the very least, that speaks to pretty significant design problems, and I'd say that balance issues are present as well.

UrPalAlDec 28, 20151 votes

Look specifically at the "Win-Rate % by Games Played", and then look ONLY at 125+ games. This represents Maokai mains, and is essentially the only stat that really matters, these are the people who have mastered Maokai and play him at his full potential. If this number is over 52-55%, you have a solid champion.

Not only that, but his base win-rate is also solid at almost exactly 50%, again, for a base win-rate of all players, this is solid.

Unless a champion is under 48%, there is no point of saying they are weak, and even then there are exceptions, for example, Azir (before he got nerfed) had a low base win-rate, but a super high 125+ game win-rate. Why? Because he's hard to play.

One more thing, Sejuani was broken even before Cinderhulk, it just became completely apparent as soon as Cinderhulk was released, however she was always very strong, she just wasn't picked very much.

Sightless66Dec 28, 20151 votes

Look specifically at the "Win-Rate % by Games Played", and then look ONLY at 125+ games. This represents Maokai mains, and is essentially the only stat that really matters, these are the people who have mastered Maokai and play him at his full potential.

That's oversimplifying a lot. Champions that are rarely played systematically have much, much higher numbers in this category, even if they are weak. Just saying "only this number matters" without analyzing any further would have us labeling Yorick, Galio and top-lane--Mordekaiser-top among the strongest champions in the game, and that fails even the most basic sanity check.

Azir (before he got nerfed) had a low base win-rate, but a super high 125+ game win-rate

Funnnily enough, that has never actually been true. His 125+ winrate has always been only slightly higher than the winrate for 0-5 games, and none of his winrates ever broke 50%.

Unless a champion is under 48%, there is no point of saying they are weak, and even then there are exceptions,

Exceptions work in both directions. Just as there are factors that can deflate a champion's winrate (such as them being hard), there are also tons of factors that can inflate winrates. Just saying that a 50% winrate = not weak is missing a ton of possible conditions that can influence winrate.

One more thing, Sejuani was broken even before Cinderhulk,

I know. That was exactly the point I was making. Riot and players were perfectly aware that she was very strong. I was making that point in response to you saying " remember how long it even took people to realize how strong she was, even after the cinderhulk changes?", which was inaccurate because people already knew it well before the Cinderhulk changes.

UrPalAlDec 28, 20152 votes

That's true, I dd oversimplify things. For the Yorick win-rates, it's probably due to people not knowing how to play against them, or possibly that people only use him to counterpick someone else, like say, Jayce.
Also true, my bad there, looked into his history. However, I do remember Riot stating they had some sort of data stating this.
True, it's difficult to always tell, but I'm still sure that Maokai isn't in need of any urgent buffs.
Aight.

Sightless66Dec 28, 20152 votes

True, it's difficult to always tell, but I'm still sure that Maokai isn't in need of any urgent buffs.

Fair enough. "Urgent" definitely wouldn't be the right word for anything he needs. He's not in a terrible spot, but I'd describe him as pretty firmly in the "below-average" category, and that should be addressed at some point.

UrPalAlDec 28, 20151 votes

Yeah, and right typically avoids making changes to champions in that spot because their win-rate can fluctuate easily depending on meta changes. But again, he's not in a TERRIBLE spot, just a bit below average.

Gregor GysiDec 27, 20151 votes

Maokai is pretty strong right now and synergizes well with the masteries.. He is not in the dumpster, he is simply underplayed. Also, Maokai is my most played champion in ranked (and my best one aswell)..

SammystormDec 27, 20151 votes

I stoped playing him when he went top lane. I enjoyed jungling him.

TwinkieProDec 27, 20151 votes

And yet blitz walks around with an AOE silence at 25 seconds, with some of the best single person lockdown cc combos in the game and some impressive base damage and 100% ap scaling, not to mention a passive that scales with mana, yet doesnt use mana, all while still being a decent tank. but y'know, fuck the tree, he has to dive a team.

FatTacoDec 27, 20151 votes

He should get Magic Resist per level like most other champions, his W range should be a tiny bit bigger before it got nerfed many many patches ago. Right now he is okay and if they buffed his damage then he'd be nerfed hard again.

SolusInCadereDec 28, 20151 votes

Maokai is not a traditional tank, and that is because of his ulti. His CC is lack luster, with only a root and a small displacement, but his CC is potent, since the snare is point and click AND tack onto mobility. His real power comes in the ability to truly TANK, in terms of damage mitigation. His ulti 20% mitigation combined with items like item 3143 and item 3190 mean he can tank for his entire team at once, whether he was blocking skill shots or not.

His sticking potential is superb, and if he can latch onto the ADC, he will sit on top of them for the entire fight. His healing is also superb in team fights because spells are getting thrown everywhere.

He's not a tank in the same way CC bots like Leona are, he is more about turning your entire team into tanks.