Junglers, if you're invading, it's YOUR responsibility to make sure your lane can support

ValyrianBlade·Apr 8, 2018·57 votes·8,562 views

Seriously getting so fucking tired of this.

Last game, Kayn jungle invades enemy blue at level 2. I'm as Ahri against a Zed in lane. I've been poking Zed down a bit, and he backs off to his tower (I think), but it turns out Cho is running towards mid from jungle and Kayn is chasing him straight between mid t1 and t2 towers.

Then he dies to Zed, gives him doubles, and blames me for not following.

A bit after spawn, he goes straight to their red side jg, and dies to their zed again. Again, starts cussing me out for not following. Like riiight.... you expect a level 5 Ahri to follow a level 6 Zed with double buffs into his own jg? Riiiight...

ALL game long cussing me out for losing lane to a Zed that he fed 2 kills to early. All because he invaded when I wasn't in position to help him.

If you're jungling, and you invade, you better damn well make sure your lane can help you. I'm not running through his tower to try to stop him getting to you. Seriously fuck off.

66 Comments

2Charmnot2CharmApr 8, 201819 votes

I instantly mute idiot junglers that don't know this thing called "lane priority".

Anything else they have to say after showing me their lack of understanding that laners can't miss gold/xp early can be said to the mute button cause i'm not listening to whatever bronze logic they use to justify having his laners screw themselves over to save his ass because he doesn't know what a mini map is.

Divine WindsApr 8, 201810 votes

Honestly just mute people like that. If they blaming people in chat, the stuff they say isn't going to be useful to the game at all. Mute them and if they spam ping mute that too

IfnethApr 8, 20182 votes

I don’t even fool around with that. I just mute their text, pings, and emotes right away. They’ll just use whatever they can to harass you.

VerxintApr 8, 201810 votes

People who die on an invade and immediately go to invade the other side after spawning baffle me

sir d wreckApr 9, 20182 votes

It especially drives me nuts when they do this and they have a full jungle of their own that they can safely take instead of making another risky play that already didn't work the first time.

Trias000Apr 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

People who die on an invade and immediately go to invade the other side after spawning baffle me

It's not bad on principle. The next situation might be completely different. Let's say you got caught and died, but then you see the enemy jungler on the other side of the map or you know their midlaner is dead, so it's perfectly safe to invade this time.

LordGeovanniApr 8, 20186 votes

While true, thats a super bad example if you pushing in zed you have a great position to help kayn and the roam will deny zed farm and exp while it resets the wave for you.

woodvsmurphApr 8, 20188 votes

Poking zed - not necessarily pushing him in. Also it's lvl 2 so the wave is only maybe beginning to push... not bouncing off tower. Leaving at that point would give zed a freeze and put you in massive danger... like lvl 2 ahri vs lvl 4 zed and the wave only beginning to push back towards you from right by his tower. NOT a good spot. Also, lvl 2 kayn shouldn't be CHASING an enemy jungler between tier 1 and tier 2 tower in the enemy's lane. In the jungle it's fine, but in lane... one good tower shot and the other guy kills you even if you win the 1v1 normally. Which at lvl 2, kayn doesn't really beat too many people. So all in all, very very dumb by kayn and nothing wrong with what ahri did.

Sylvester DyloneApr 9, 20182 votes

I've run into this a hundred times. If you don't have the wave crashed into the enemy's tower, you don't have full priority. If you leave and they don't, they will get a ton of exp from this because your minions will be slow pushing into the enemy's tower. If you both leave, it's still high risk, little reward.

LordGeovanniApr 10, 20181 votes

The reward is avoiding the feeding that you then go on to complain about that's throwing your games.

Sylvester DyloneApr 10, 20181 votes

Or the jungler could just not invade at dumb times?

LordGeovanniApr 10, 20181 votes

'Dumb times' But he was winning. The diffrence between him and the other jungler is that they got help when both arhi and Zed could come to help. Maybe think that the reason zed runs off to the direction of his tower is because he wants to help his jungler.

Sylvester DyloneApr 12, 20181 votes

Okay, but the jungler was running between the mid t1 and t2 towers. How do I answer that if the jungler is going to run the wrong way anyway? If he wanted help, he should've run toward raptors and down toward the river. Maybe in this situation it wasn't enough map awareness, from the Ahri player to help. But their jungler obviously made a pathing mistake either way.

LordGeovanniApr 12, 20181 votes

that isnt what was stated it was stated their jungler invaded the enemy jungler at red won the fight but failed to secure the kill and the enemy zed came through and killed him I assume at the raptors bush because thats as far as people usually push next to mid when invading. It wasnt stated where their jungler died whether it was in the bush or under tower just that he got 2 v1'ed while the mid versus zed had lane control

Sylvester DyloneApr 13, 20181 votes

He literally says that the guy ran between the t1 and t2 towers... This is my last reply. Not going to debate with someone who isn't even going to read the post before they try to argue their point

LordGeovanniApr 14, 20181 votes

sorry i dont account for edits

TehNACHOApr 9, 20183 votes

I don't think so:

I've been poking Zed down a bit, and he backs off to his tower (I think), but it turns out Cho is running towards mid from jungle and Kayn is chasing him straight between mid t1 and t2 towers.

He doesn't necessarily shove Zed in. You could easily be at the center of the lane to poke Zed, this statement especially relevant having Zed "back off to his tower".

Furthermore from that position, Zed's simply going to be the first one to Cho'Gath, rather than Ahri getting past Zed to Kayn.

AezanthyaApr 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

While true, thats a super bad example if you pushing in zed you have a great position to help kayn and the roam will deny zed farm and exp while it resets the wave for you.

Sure let's follow Zed and go into an unwarded jungle with a zed lurking around as pre-level 6 Ahri, sounds like a bright idea.

LordGeovanniApr 10, 20181 votes

No lets not follow zed into unwarded jungle lets realize that according to Op's own words they were pushed up and thus could have moved toward the enemy jungle where they saw the jungler is getting chased so you could have moved to support your jungler before the enemy zed even left lane. the enemy zed was in lane the enemy jungler was close and their jungler was at least in a winning state until zed jumps arhi's jungler its early game so its safe to assume bot and top are in their lanes and not middle lane.

MorganFreemanBotApr 8, 20186 votes

This is a two way street.

As a jungler, there are absolutely times when I go exploring and my laners are not positioned to respond to the invade faster than their counter part. This is my own risk, and if the enemy mid reaches me before mine, that's my own fault.

More commonly though, I see laners who are unaware / unwilling to leave their lane even when it would behoove them. You may not be able to beat your mid to the invade conflict, but a lot of the time you can be RIGHT on their ass and snag an easy combination of two take downs + a possible buff. It's even worse when I'm in my own jungle, spot an invade, and my laner just jacks off in their lane while the enemy laner responds and assists his jungler in gang banging me.

TempistApr 9, 20182 votes

It really depends on who has priority in lane.

If your laner is ahead, they can support the invade. If they are behind, they can't. If they have a huge minion wave about to crash into tower, they also can't. And even if ahead, if it's something like a squishy mage against a Fizz, even if the mage is ahead trying to follow on the fizz's heels is pretty damn dangerous for them.

That being said, barring exceptional circumstances, you're right to blame your laners for not collapsing on the enemy jungler when they invade you.

ShinjusukeApr 9, 20185 votes

On the flip side, when you HAVE the ability to help, and still choose not to, there's still some excuse to not help.

There's always, and will always be, an excuse for a laner to completely ignore their jungler as a teammate, while simultaneously bitching if I don't gank their lane 10 times in 4 minutes.

You're right, the jungler fucked up. But if we wanna talk "ways laners fuck over their junglers" I could list ways for hours.

Sometimes, some of us turn bitter. You get more abuse as a jungler than any other role. Hands down.

C9 Squeeky Apr 8, 20184 votes

Agreed. Jungler shouldn't be invading if his laners aren't pushing in. And no reason for a kayn to run in Zed like that. Should've been satisfied pushing Cho out of the jg and stealing his camps. Sounds like that Kayn doesn't look at where his laners are at or if they are 6.

warpenguin555Apr 8, 20184 votes

How the hell were you supposed to follow the Zed between 2 towers lol

RatpieApr 8, 20183 votes

I agree completely, but also on the other side, if your lane is invading jungle, rotate and help or you better be destroying their lane. Played a game today where top and jg invaded topside jungle on me, I have it warded so we see them coming mile away. Mid is pushed out, but they ignore, and top sits there afk farming.

Supreme Senpai69Apr 8, 20183 votes

That sounds tilting as hell. That sounds mostly just like him though. You should only invade if you know where the enemy jungler is or have mobility to get out, but sometimes things happen. Like, instead of clearing they backed and went to the other side of their jungle. Or their laners are randomly in their jungle. Stuff you can't predict. You should always go help em. Yeah you lose out on CS but if you don't the enemy will get 300G and that directly hurts everyone. I know you couldn't, and a lot of times you can't. Just in general s'all

Not to steal your thread of course. Just that Im on the other end of that a lot as a Kayn player. I can get out super easy with my E but sometimes things go south and my laner just.. stands there freezing the wave as their lane opponent comes to kill me lol. If you can't help that's cool too but puuuush that lane! Use my death to get something. Don't just last hit lol. I can lead them on a chase with my E and Q but if you're just standing under your own tower you're not helpin the team at all

ValyrianBladeApr 8, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Supreme Senpai69,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZsXaptEU,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-08T17:13:49.706+0000)

That sounds tilting as hell. That sounds mostly just like him though. You should only invade if you know where the enemy jungler is or have mobility to get out, but sometimes things happen. Like, instead of clearing they backed and went to the other side of their jungle. Or their laners are randomly in their jungle. Stuff you can't predict. You should always go help em. Yeah you lose out on CS but if you don't the enemy will get 300G and that directly hurts everyone. I know you couldn't, and a lot of times you can't. Just in general s'all

Not to steal your thread of course. Just that Im on the other end of that a lot as a Kayn player. I can get out super easy with my E but sometimes things go south and my laner just.. stands there freezing the wave as their lane opponent comes to kill me lol. If you can't help that's cool too but puuuush that lane! Use my death to get something. Don't just last hit lol. I can lead them on a chase with my E and Q but if you're just standing under your own tower you're not helpin the team at all

I agree with the sentiment, I generally push in, but that time was pure greed chasing between mid t1 and t2 (there's not even a gap there to avoid tanking tower shots). I was keeping zed busy that he couldn't just run up river to blue where the fight started (and Kayn was going to win the 1v1), but when he chased too far there was nothing I could do. Zed is always going to be closer to his tower than I am, and I can't follow even if I wanted to.

Supreme Senpai69Apr 9, 20181 votes

Yea that's pretty awful. Thankfully I don't have to deal with greedy junglers since I usually take the jungle slot lol

Ready 2 B BlamedApr 8, 20183 votes

I actually have to disagree. As Ahri, you push in against Zed. If you're presumably 'poking' him then I'd imagine you're doing so as you push in and rush level 2. If Kayn invaded blue (I assumed your team was red-side) then, if my memory of how this lane plays out rings true and also based on my assumption that Kayn did blue-wolf-invade Eblue then your second wave should just about be within Zed's turret range which means you have lane priority. Again, all assuming that everyone played how they should.

In this case, there's no reason you can't follow Zed on Kayn's level 2 invade. In fact, it'd be more optimal if you went before Zed and help secure blue while Zed tries to clear the wave. Not saying the flaming Kayn was right to 'flame'. Nobody ever has that right. I'd report him on sight. But it does sound to me that even if everyone didn't play optimally it is clear to me that you didn't either.

PhDs NutsApr 9, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jester Monocle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZsXaptEU,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-04-08T20:04:07.241+0000)

I actually have to disagree. As Ahri, you push in against Zed. If you're presumably 'poking' him then I'd imagine you're doing so as you push in and rush level 2. If Kayn invaded blue (I assumed your team was red-side) then, if my memory of how this lane plays out rings true and also based on my assumption that Kayn did blue-wolf-invade Eblue then your second wave should just about be within Zed's turret range which means you have lane priority. Again, all assuming that everyone played how they should.

Did you miss the "between T1 and T2 mid towers" part?

Ready 2 B BlamedApr 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Did you miss the "between T1 and T2 mid towers" part?

The natural assumption is that Kayn chased into between t1 and t2 towers after the invade...

DaizumiApr 9, 20183 votes

Ok so as a jungler main I agree with you 100%. They should know what lane priority is and usually if I invade and I get cucked because my opponents had lane priority than it's my fault and I'm sorry when I do that.

However, My only pet peeve is when it I invade when my lane does have priority and they don't at least ping mia. If you even ping mia then usually I'll back out if it's too late to get a kill or jungle creep ( smart jungler usually only invade when they have flash unless if they're massively ahead). It's when my winning lane stays quiet and let's me get suprise cucked that tilts me.

SancreApr 9, 20181 votes

This happened so often that right now me, as the jungler, is the one that usually pings mia in all lanes. You can't leave the ss's to anyone in solo q if you want to be able to even be in the river without being destroyed by enemy jungler, mid and bot/top, not even talking about invading

heroikcApr 8, 20182 votes

Yeah, I had a Jinx jungle (I was solo queue) who got all mad that top lane malphite didn't ward blue and it got stolen by the enemy Kayn. What did she do? Got all mad and tried to steal Kayn's red...and died. And proceeded to blame the Malphite for not warding....and then began to feed everyone in the game and make us miserable.

Personally, it's her own (and every likeminded junglers like your Kayn) fault for not staying cool, getting so tunnel-visioned for kills, and then losing their own mind.

MarothennanApr 8, 20182 votes

Well that's true as long as the laner actually can't do it, if it's because of lack of map awareness then it's the laner that shit the bed

PhantomPranksterApr 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Seriously getting so fucking tired of this.

Last game, Kayn jungle

i already knew where this was going the moment i read kayn LuL

Spacesuit SpiffApr 9, 20182 votes

Yup. Also, 90% of the time your laner cant/wont help. Theyre pushed in? Would lose an absurd ampunt of cs. They're pushing? Doable but the enemy laner can follow considerably faster. Especially blue side. Wave in the middle? Make sure your laner wont just straight up die to their opponent when they leave the safety of their wave. And the other laner can still get there faster.

TeCoolMageApr 9, 20182 votes

LANE PRIORITY JUNGLERS

Learn it

Your life will immediately get better

(well at least mine will)

Trias000Apr 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

LANE PRIORITY JUNGLERS

Learn it

ShablagooApr 9, 20182 votes

If you are pushing him in then you should be aware that you should go and help kayn, you basically give up the advantage that kayn was providing. I hate this when the enemy mid laner reacts faster then mine especially when i ping them. You should figure out and know where you laner is at all times thats the point of missing pings. Obviously the kayn was dumb though and wasnt paying attention to the mini map.

LordBrascaApr 9, 20182 votes

It happened to me 3 games ago.

"Wtf why is the enemy midlaner here? Follow up maybe?" I was veigar lvl 3 Vs Talon lvl 3, and talon can literally jump every single wall... and he's surprised that he's already there. Like, what should i even reply to something like this? lol.

BestPudgeNAApr 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Seriously getting so fucking tired of this.

Last game, Kayn jungle invades enemy blue at level 2. I'm as Ahri against a Zed in lane. I've been poking Zed down a bit, and he backs off to his tower (I think), but it turns out Cho is running towards mid from jungle and Kayn is chasing him straight between mid t1 and t2 towers.

Then he dies to Zed, gives him doubles, and blames me for not following.

First off i would like to say HHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHh AHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH

This is the experience you get almost every game as a jungler. At least 90% of games you will have 1 lane blaming you for everything all game. Even if you're popping off and hardcarrying the game. Annoying isn't it.

Secondly, Hard to say for sure since i don't have a video to watch of it. But the first one sounds like you genuinely fucked your jungler very very hard.

So you had lane priority, a HP lead and maybe even a level lead. You likely had vision otherwise they Zed wouldn't have had vision. Your lane MIAs directly towards the vision of a fight in the jungle, but because you aren't paying attention you think he is just what afking at turret? recalling? So you didn't follow, you didn't ping and instead you turned a perfectly fine invade into a tilting death for your Jungler.

You will have to describe the second situation in more detail although it sounds like this is a genuinely bad invade. That said 0 chance Zed had double buffs at 6, first buffs would've timed out by then and second set wouldn't have spawned yet.

ValyrianBladeApr 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

First off i would like to say HHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHh AHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH

This is the experience you get almost every game as a jungler. At least 90% of games you will have 1 lane blaming you for everything all game. Even if you're popping off and hardcarrying the game. Annoying isn't it.

Secondly, Hard to say for sure since i don't have a video to watch of it. But the first one sounds like you genuinely fucked your jungler very very hard.

So you had lane priority, a HP lead and maybe even a level lead. You likely had vision otherwise they Zed wouldn't have had vision. Your lane MIAs directly towards the vision of a fight in the jungle, but because you aren't paying attention you think he is just what afking at turret? recalling? So you didn't follow, you didn't ping and instead you turned a perfectly fine invade into a tilting death for your Jungler.

You will have to describe the second situation in more detail although it sounds like this is a genuinely bad invade. That said 0 chance Zed had double buffs at 6, first buffs would've timed out by then and second set wouldn't have spawned yet.

I mean, he came out between enemy blue side mid tier 1 and tier 2 towers. I could have pinged MIA, but why in the world would I expect my Kayn to chase in that direction? Any rational player would have backed off. He wasn't even close to catching Cho anyways.

Yes, I should have seen that Kayn was there. I was busy trying to win my lane, and it made sense when Zed started backing off after blowing his abilities that he just needed to back off. Then I look up and there's a Kayn running to him.

BestPudgeNAApr 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean, he came out between enemy blue side mid tier 1 and tier 2 towers. I could have pinged MIA, but why in the world would I expect my Kayn to chase in that direction? Any rational player would have backed off. He wasn't even close to catching Cho anyways.

Yes, I should have seen that Kayn was there. I was busy trying to win my lane, and it made sense when Zed started backing off after blowing his abilities that he just needed to back off. Then I look up and there's a Kayn running to him.

First if you were poking Zed out and your jungler was invading blue you should already be pushed up to Zed's caster minions on blue side. This would allow you to be in the best position to help your Jungler at the Blue buff fight that is gonna happen 100% of the time and btw you can get there quickly if you position like this, simply take the path past river to the blast cone near wolves/blue . It also puts you in the correct position to run towards your jungler should cho come mid via red side(never gonna happen, but in theory it could) and it also allows you to deny Zed some CS.

A kill here on Cho would be massive, he has a shit early clear and dying he would lose most of his red buff time, get his blue stolen and force an awful buy which would basically render him irrelevant for the entire lane phase

KetiApr 9, 20181 votes

My favorite is when my lanes have priority and I eat a 3 man rotation anyways.

BigBellBruteApr 9, 20181 votes

Those junglers, they don't understand the rules.

It's always the support's fault
Jungler is just another support.

Lunar LunacyApr 10, 20181 votes

As a Diana mid main I can't stress this enough. Early levels there is not a lot I can contribute to a fight and if I leave lane to try and help my jungler it almost always sets me behind in lane because of missed experience/cs. I usually don't even level up my E until level 4 and I have no way to even get in auto range without flashing onto them. My jungler will almost always rage at me if I didn't come to help in the first couple minutes, but when I do, nothing good ever comes of it.

Little PadawanApr 10, 20181 votes

Even when I have lane pressure they don't really communicate they just go ape shit into enemy jungle and die and give enemy top laner double buffs. Don't worry tho, next thing you will read in chat is "Have fun top now. Won't be coming top ever again".

Like yea dude... I'm glad you won't, you're making it easier for him lul

MorissApr 13, 20181 votes

I think it's also your responsibility to be able-minded to seize those windows of aggression. As a most of the time jungler I really hate it when people can't see a golden opportunity. Whether that means kill secured or a buff stolen it's great to be able to translate that into a 1 level and eventually 2-3 level advantage for your teams jungler vs theirs. One of the best jungle routes that really screws with low elo players is red blue enemy red wait in bush kill em dead. An Udyr Classic. So yea go figure if we want you to play a little more aggressively. It's because we're trying to create an opportunity for the team. I'm not using this as a justification to be aggro 100% of the time but one of the reasons low elo players stay low elo is not seeing snowball opportunities. Give your jungler a chance sometimes mang they might just know what they're doing. Also disclaimer I'm only here to spout a little bit of gameplay theory your way. Most players seem resiliant to this kind of hyperaggression but it's a great way to dictate the pace of the game.

Your jungler arguably has the most high impact role in the game seeing as he can swing any particular lane and pool resources your way. It's all about power and control. If you can shut down the enemy jungler you can shut down their cross map impact and make it way easier for the rest of the team to know that your junglers global presence is greater than the enemy's.

Also if you want easier games. Try banning Warwick, Swain, Irelia, Kaisa every game. GG and have a nice day.

ValyrianBladeApr 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think it's also your responsibility to be able-minded to seize those windows of aggression. As a most of the time jungler I really hate it when people can't see a golden opportunity. Whether that means kill secured or a buff stolen it's great to be able to translate that into a 1 level and eventually 2-3 level advantage for your teams jungler vs theirs. One of the best jungle routes that really screws with low elo players is red blue enemy red wait in bush kill em dead. An Udyr Classic. So yea go figure if we want you to play a little more aggressively. It's because we're trying to create an opportunity for the team. I'm not using this as a justification to be aggro 100% of the time but one of the reasons low elo players stay low elo is not seeing snowball opportunities. Give your jungler a chance sometimes mang they might just know what they're doing. Also disclaimer I'm only here to spout a little bit of gameplay theory your way. Most players seem resiliant to this kind of hyperaggression but it's a great way to dictate the pace of the game.

Your jungler arguably has the most high impact role in the game seeing as he can swing any particular lane and pool resources your way. It's all about power and control. If you can shut down the enemy jungler you can shut down their cross map impact and make it way easier for the rest of the team to know that your junglers global presence is greater than the enemy's.

Also if you want easier games. Try banning Warwick, Swain, Irelia, Kaisa every game. GG and have a nice day.

I'm okay with the strategy, but why not tell your laners you're going to play that way if you already know?

I can't read your mind. I check the map less often in the super-early game because those early CS are incredibly important for an AP champion (Doran's Ring mana refund, meaning every CS I miss leads to less spell casts in early lane, which leads to less lane pressure - meanwhile I have weaker basic attacks to actually secure them with), especially in a matchup against a resourceless AD champion. Meanwhile, almost no junglers gank pre level 3. So I focus nearly 100% on dodging skillshots and last hitting in the early game.

Give me a heads up you're planning to invade? I'll pay some more attention. Otherwise, I intend to focus on my lane when I don't anticipate the enemy jungler to be doing anything...