Claiming that marksman have been played in all positions is a correct statement,

Marshbouy··4 votes·835 views

but an incredibly misleading one. We have graves top, largely in part due to him being flat out busted from the marksman update, but Jayce is less of a marksman and more of a skirmisher/artillery. We have the various jungle marksman, most of whom are gone now except for graves. We have the incredibly niche varus mid and corki mid (can't remember if Quinn was picked mid or not). Varus is mostly played as an AP hybrid artillery and corki was in the mid lane because he was too powerful to pass up post marksman update. OFC marksman in the ADC role. And finally, the one that pisses me off the most, Miss fortune support who was picked as a direct counter to zyra and purposefully set up to synergize with ashe.

As you can see most of the marksman champions playing other positions are either from

  1. A champion being too powerful due to the marksman update
  2. A counterpick
  3. As a hybrid artillery (basically a mage but with more autos)

The day that there is a 5 man marksman team we can officially say that they are too strong, but that day has not happened yet. 4 marksman comps have not happened for a long time either, so just put that issue to rest.

So please, don't go around spreading technically correct BS. If you have anything to add or change, just tell me.

35 Comments

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Marshbouy2 votes

The problem with marksmen isn't specifically that they can fill other positions, it is that they are so strong right now that no other archetype can fill the bot lane farming position

where have you been the past, what, 4 seasons? That's just how the game is now. The last time they tried to make a melee bot we got this abomination of a rework Mordekaiser

The fact that marksmen can be used in other positions is used more to highlight this disparity.

See my entire post. Vlad is a battlemage, he can play top and mid, brand is a mage who can play bot and support,

The fact that mages can be used in other positions is used more to highlight this disparity.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Marshbouy1 votes

Magically come up with a way to force marksmen out of the bot lane without

  1. overbuffing melees
  2. overnerfing marksman
ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Marshbouy1 votes

So basically nerf them until they are irrelevant enough to not be picked part of the time?

2. overnerfing marksman

you had one job.

ChargeItDownMid3 votes

[deleted]

Marshbouy1 votes

Pardon my terrible phrasing. I meant it as "weak enough to not be picked"

I like how marksmen mains are so delusional that they think the only way for marksmen to be balanced is if they are picked in every game.

Are you claiming i'm a marksman main? I play almost exclusively tanks and mages.

Look dude, being able to apply constant DPS at range is too good. You have two options

  1. Woonstrucks idea about changing the game.
  2. Nerfing them so hard that they can no longer reliably apply DPS at range.

You are opting for the ham fisted, second route. In order to make them no longer viable by just nerfs you will either need them to require a team comp just to protect them, or make them useless enough to be passed up. I can assure you riot will not make 14 ish champions useless enough to be passed up.

WoonStruck1 votes

I would say that making ranged ADCs relatively unviable for a season would be a great experiment for Riot to attempt, honestly.

See what happens, change back to old meta next season, and try to move forward with the new information in-hand.

Marshbouy2 votes

Believe me when i say this, I really really want a change in the meta. I do. But i don't see it happening. You know how whiny this community get about champions getting nerfed, now imagine that over a whole class.

I'd like to see a season long alternate gamemode with 0 marksman. That would be a fun time.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Marshbouy1 votes

Lemme do something pretty cheesy, but what's exactly what you just did.

Siege marksman can be passed up Hypercarry marksman can be passed up Utility marksman can be passed up

See what happens when you split up a wide subgroup into a smaller subgroups?

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Marshbouy1 votes

Champions with utility have been picked for almost the entirety of league. What's your point again? Oh right, you are just bitching for change when change isn't possible unless you want terrible balance for the next 2 seasons or for the community to shit itself over 22 champions no longer being worth picking.

That is the most BS shit i have ever seen. That fails to take into account

  1. the meta
  2. the strength of supporting champions
  3. Lane matchups
  4. The strength of AP/AD/Tank itemization and many more factors.

Doesn't matter anyway, you don't understand how balancing works. Marksman will either be viable or not viable depending on the champion. Marksman are nerfed until they are only picked 80% of the time. What's making picking them 20% of the time a good idea? Team comp? Lane matchups? AD itemization being really good? Well if they are good 20% of the time why not 80%?

What you are lobbying for is an entire shift of the game and the games meta. This conversation is an absolute waste of my time.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Marshbouy1 votes

I utterly refuse to continue to discuss with someone as stupid and stubborn as you. You have no sound reasoning, i have already debunked what you are using as your arguments multiple times.

This is a waste of my time.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Marshbouy1 votes

Lol you haven't done anything but show a blatant lack of understanding in how to balance a moba.

hilarious. Now you are claiming it's me who doesn't understand how to balance a moba when you think that you can just magically make a type of champion viable a perfect 80% of the time.

I'm amazed at your self righteousness.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

So basically nerf them until they are irrelevant enough to not be picked part of the time?

you had one job.

Forums auto-format in cases like that. I even went to 'edit' and it still had 3 listed, despite it displaying as 1 in the post.

WoonStruck1 votes
  1. Changing expectations of the roles, especially early on and in team-fights, and how they accomplish it.

That's how you fix the discrepancy. That's how other games did it. That's how League needs to do it.

Let's face it. The design and balance team for LoL are lazy. They show it with reworks and new champs, forcing gimmicks that are often too powerful in order to guarantee a champion is used. Said champion is either too strong and must be nerfed until they are unviable, or too general to the point where they don't get picked over other options.

Marshbouy1 votes

That would theoretically work but it would be a massive undertaking. It really would work, and it's the only real way without just nerf hammering the entire role, but i imagine the amount of changes that would have to pass through could result in a season of just horrendous balance.

I don't think riot cares enough about marksman being meta for 6 seasons enough. Maybe in the future.

Ratbert2 votes

Add turn rate. EZ PZ.

Buff dorans shield and gut graves.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

the reason marksmen aka adcs exist in the meta and always have is cuz the game is based around taking out turrets to siege and take nexus to win the game... they are the best at doing so and always have been due to their range being able to attack it and be out of range of majority of the damage the other team can inflict on them to stop them. if they change the concept of the game then you would see marksmen disappear... also they are strong cuz then riot buffed other roles to kinda suppress them people cried that tanks are broken, that mages have to much burst, that juggernauts are too strong and tanky... and so on...

now riot is coming out with the assassin update which is a counter to the adc /marksmen and we will see a rise in tanks and control mages to counter the assassins and every one is already flooding the boards with post after post about how broken edge of the night is and how broken all the assassins will be

just one be circle jerk of tears

WoonStruck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZsGNPNcM,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-10-25T01:16:58.882+0000)

the reason marksmen aka adcs exist in the meta and always have is cuz the game is based around taking out turrets to siege and take nexus to win the game...

Meanwhile every other MOBA in existence has the very viable option of trade-offs with hard-carries, pretty much all of whom are melees, over ranged carries.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

fair enough and i dont disagree .. however league isnt those other MOBAs they are league... they do things how they want and so far it has worked for them the biggest game in the world

WoonStruck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZsGNPNcM,comment-id=0001000100010000,timestamp=2016-10-25T01:22:27.747+0000)

fair enough and i dont disagree .. however league isnt those other MOBAs they are league... they do things how they want and so far it has worked for them the biggest game in the world

And they became big due to the snappy, quick gameplay, unlike most other MOBAs. This made laning extremely satisfying for most players.

Removing ranged ADCs as a constant factor would not change what League is.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

but why be a copy of every other game out there ? league tries to be different on purpose to set its self apart with good and bad qualities by doing so

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

well riot tried to remedy that in the past with the 1st version of relic shield kinda nudging the meta to support bruiser bot lane. but it was abused and op so they nerfed it ... and then they tried with the mord rework and he was broken and people cried cuz they had to over buff him and give him an EXP bonus

one of two things have to happen... either get rid of all range champs/get rid of all melee champs or change the way league is won by changing the map and the turret siege base concept

WoonStruck2 votes

Sorry OP, most everything being discussed in the thread is only related by slant lol.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

actually marksmen have only been played as marksmen used in different ways. the role of marksmen is still that .. a marksmen

regardless of the position on the map that they are filling they still do one thing... provide damage from ranged attacks typically with auto attacks

hence making them marksmen

MF support still is getting ad damage to enhance her damage on her abilities and attacks and still doing nothing more then providing another damage sorce

vayne top still is there to do damage ...

varus/ corki/ jihn /ez mid are still doing damage

none of them are there for being cc bots. having shields, or heals. enhancing their teammates in any way

no matter how tanky you build vayne top she is still a marksmen just a less effective one and a squishy that is harder to kill more to the tune of a bruiser but with out the def stats to back it up...

Marshbouy1 votes

I'll make the edit to have it be positions

More from Gameplay

More by Marshbouy