To me, the biggest mistake Riot made was removing the old runes/masteries, then adding keystones

HateDaddy··19 votes·3,487 views

And this highlights arguably Riot’s worst flaw as a company regarding balance, which I’ll address in a moment.

The original runes and mastery system was completely fine. Riot’s argument against it was that it didn’t feel impactful and it was bland, both of which honestly weren’t true. Try playing the game without runes or masteries on a new account or forgetting to save mastery changes and going in 0/0/0. They were definitely impactful, they simply didn’t break the game to ridiculous levels like keystones did.

This idea that they were bland was inaccurate as well. You know why Pantheon became a menace? Thunderlords and the inability to stack armor early. I used to run a total armor rune page, + cloth 5 and/or flask + potions. This actually gave you the ability to pick different options for out-sustaining bullies. Now, when everyone goes corrupting potion and you take any damage keystone, outsustaining isn’t an option, plus the additional damage from the keystone where damage like this never existed before in the early game (practically gave you an additional spell) and corruption burn damage. Obviously the keystones have changed this season, as have the items but it’s all still the same more or less.

Old runes and masteries were impactful but only subtly so. It wasn’t obnoxiously overpowered and it didn’t power creep the game. Sure, most setups were generic and the same thing but how is that really any different now? You merely replace a proven system that had years of repetitive success with a new, more broken and a much more impactful system that has contributed to the power creeping of this game and the absurd amount of damage output we have now, mostly because of keystones. This has single handily ruined the gameplay for most tanks and weak early game champions because baring a few exceptions, the keystones that have been the most broken and constant all reward and amplify damage while any sign or scent of a true defensive keystone simply doesn’t exist. And please, for the love of god, don’t create it.

It’s ironic, too. The old mastery system was way more diverse than this crap now. Anyone from season 3 remembers how many different setups you could have. 21/9/0, 21/0/9, 9/21/0, 0/21/9, 9/0/21 and 0/9/21 were all totally viable options that enabled a unique play style or variation of one for many champions. Anyone remember 9/0/21 perma kite vlad? Yeah his damage was weaker but that was the trade off you made for more spell vamp and movement speed. You could go 21/9 or 21/0/9 if you wanted more burst and sustained damage and you could go 9/21/0 for more tackiness in the early game. The realty is, that doesn’t exist now, or maybe it does but we haven’t yet found it out because you’ll just massively overhaul it again. Even if the former isn’t true, the ladder is and vice versa (I suspect the former is true though).

And that speaks, to what I believe, is Riot’s biggest flaw as a company. Too many times, they have changed things that were totally fine just for the sake of changing. What’s the old saying? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Yet, a system that ran successfully for 5+ years suddenly had to go just for the sake of satisfying someone’s curiosity most likely. There was hardly an outcry to overhaul the rune and mastery system. By season 5, you guys just made it so bland because you nerfed just about all the different rune/mastery setups or randomly changed them to be more bland when in reality, while they certainly broke the game at times, they were hardly a huge problem in the grand scheme of things. Sometimes simplicity and longevity is best, you don’t have to change everything to keep things fresh: plenty of things change in this game, it was nice that something remained so static over the years that allowed people to feel coming back to this game from a few months off didn’t require such an investment in time now. And now, it’s gotten to a point where even Riot really doesn’t have the resources or wisdom to balance this hideously broken game. The ultimate irony.

In my opinion, you should just scrap keystones and go back to the old runes/mastery system and keep the noob trap runes out of the game while allowing runes to be free and accessible at every summoner level, same for masteries. I actually believe that alone would fix so many problems. Of course, you still need to get rid of baron insta dying, towers melting so quickly, cheap damage items and a few other things that remove strategic gameplay, but hey, this would be a good start.

24 Comments

ChargeItDownMid6 votes

[deleted]

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

Lets not pretend the old rune system was any better. Clicking 30 runes to get 4 stats was an atrocious design. On top of that, even with 30 runes and masteries, there wasn't even any more diversity than with 6 runes. There are a ton of problems but most of them would just get worse under the old system. Season 7 was probably the worst season in terms of gameplay and we really should be running as far away from it as possible. Getting rid of the old rune system is one of the few things riot did right, there is no reason to go back to that.

Season 7 used keystones, so I’m not sure what you’re saying. Also, far more than 6 runes were viable.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

It also used the old 60 runes and mastery system which was horrible. The old system was only made to encourage people to buy ip boosts, there is no need for it anymore.

It was an all-in-one mastery tree that gave you your keystone at the bottom. Even that had plenty of effective options, just not as various as previous seasons. And the runes/mastery system was introduced in season 6, so it’s not as if it was the only redeeming quality of season 7 when it remained more or less the same for two years.

Another question I pose is that let’s assume you’re right, runes and masteries are bland and generic. Is that really so bad? The game has plenty of variety in it between items, champions, constant change and the likes. Did we really need keystones? I really don’t think something that powerful needed to be implemented - be mindful though, I’m merely isolating keystones here so I acknowledge that this ignores some context regarding their implementation but my points still mostly remain true nonetheless.

Napoleon31 votes

horible if you realize that the game balance sucks ? there is no counterplay any more bro balance team failed to balance the game deals with it no more kayle vs zed counter from now one zed can kill champions who season 5 zed was losing for example tryndamere yi jax kayle and other like yasuo fiora vayne is that inuf for you to see that the balance sucks?

Shobek4 votes

The old rune system was WAYYYY BETTER.

Just bring it back and give the runes to everyone for free.

Make recommended pages for every champion for noobs. Let the vets tinker; optimize and theory craft.

Elkington VI1 votes

It was far better imo, as I could build custom pages to perfectly suit particular champions and matchups, without making any major sacrifices like with keystones.

For example, I had a general page specifically for Trundle, tailored to keep him strong at all phases of the game. It centered around early AD, MS, and HP/cdr per level. This would let me build in a way that made up for his early shortcomings, and capping cdr without building a bunch of cdr items. This setup allowed me to maximize his utility, make him less easy to kite, and helped him recover quickly from early game cheese strats.

The new keystones simply do not offer this level of flexibility. Since going with certain one comes woth hige tradeoffs, it forces me into specific build-paths or risk losing everything should even one mistake/misstep occurs. The keystone options are also very strict for champs like Trundle, that need a bunch of different stats to make up for a limited/situational. It's very limiting strategically, which goes against what got me into the game to begin with.

The new keystones only benefit straight damage dealers and/or generalist champions with bloated kits. The ones that actually need a balanced mix of stats or limited/situatuonal tookits are the ones that suffer the most, since you can't optimize to make up for their shortcomings with how limited the keystones are.

HateDaddy3 votes

Look at that, someone downvoted without even replying and now my thread dies! Yay! Wonderful system. Sorry I didn’t join the current circlejerk, riot!

ZephyrDrake3 votes

old runes and masteries were bland and boring and really weren't impactful. Yes they were impactful in the sense that "I beat people who don't use them!" which were a very minority of people... old runes and masteries were literally "copy paste the same thing for each champion depending on whether you are a tank, support, AD champion or AP champion" you could literally do that and that is what the VAST majority of people did and they ALL were more successful than those ones who went "let me try my pure mana regen page" or other pages that were just pure novelty for the sake of novelty. Not to mention that previous runes + masteries only a really small amount of them were even viable in any way while the rest were just completely ignored.

You can disagree with me all you want, but I can at least go into each game and be "do I want a more defensive page or a more offensive focused one? what do I want to use as my keystone for this matchup?" even if the result is almost the same, I can very easily tweak what I want vs "welp I am using an AD champion let's use this very specific page that is still about 80% of every other page with only really a very small change done to make it 'the AD champion page'"

Is the current system perfect? no! far from it but it's still miles ahead and way better than the tired and repetitive thing we had before

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

old runes and masteries were bland and boring and really weren't impactful. Yes they were impactful in the sense that "I beat people who don't use them!" which were a very minority of people... old runes and masteries were literally "copy paste the same thing for each champion depending on whether you are a tank, support, AD champion or AP champion" you could literally do that and that is what the VAST majority of people did and they ALL were more successful than those ones who went "let me try my pure mana regen page" or other pages that were just pure novelty for the sake of novelty. Not to mention that previous runes + masteries only a really small amount of them were even viable in any way while the rest were just completely ignored.

You can disagree with me all you want, but I can at least go into each game and be "do I want a more defensive page or a more offensive focused one? what do I want to use as my keystone for this matchup?" even if the result is almost the same, I can very easily tweak what I want vs "welp I am using an AD champion let's use this very specific page that is still about 80% of every other page with only really a very small change done to make it 'the AD champion page'"

Is the current system perfect? no! far from it but it's still miles ahead and way better than the tired and repetitive thing we had before

That’s not really true at all. I had several different rune pages. I would run scaling HP Yellows and flat armor quints for easier match-ups, or flat armor yellows + quinta for harder match-ups. If I needed sustain, I’d run lifesteal quints. If I needed more AS, I’d run AS reds. The rune pages had quite a bit of diversity and you are honestly totally underselling it on a grand scale. Mastery trees, especially in season 3, were super unique and riot dumbed them down really for no real reason. And the type of tweaks you’re mentioning making now are still many of the same tweaks you’d make to masteries depending on match-ups, the only difference is you’re taking a keystone that’s going to give you some random boost of damage somewhere. Call me crazy, but I don’t find that interesting. I find that to be a bit overkill.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

That’s not really true at all. I had several different rune pages. I would run scaling HP Yellows and flat armor quints for easier match-ups, or flat armor yellows + quinta for harder match-ups. If I needed sustain, I’d run lifesteal quints. If I needed more AS, I’d run AS reds. The rune pages had quite a bit of diversity and you are honestly totally underselling it on a grand scale. Mastery trees, especially in season 3, were super unique and riot dumbed them down really for no real reason. And the type of tweaks you’re mentioning making now are still many of the same tweaks you’d make to masteries depending on match-ups, the only difference is you’re taking a keystone that’s going to give you some random boost of damage somewhere. Call me crazy, but I don’t find that interesting. I find that to be a bit overkill.

congrats you were in the MINOROITY. Like I said you can disagree all you want. People had the same cookie cutter pages for pretty much every single champion. All it would change is yellow runes with "do I want scaling HP or flat armor" every single other thing was terrible. I am not underselling it, that it literally how it was. Mastery trees in season 3 was the exact same thing. I am sorry to say this but you can complain all you want about the current system I would take it anytime over the bore and blandness that the previous one was

Linna Excel3 votes

HateDaddy, since you bring up sustain I would riot has become more and more anti-sustain in recent years. I'm wondering if it is partly because sustain slows things down and makes pro-play a little harder to watch because pros are great at disengaging and people don't want to watch fights end without a kill. Getting rid of sustain means a trade now will make a kill in the near future more likely.

A great example of sustain issues are all the "sustain" runes that the new system offers. You get a tiny bit infrequently. The most reliable form of sustain is legends: bloodline and that's a complete joke for the first 10 minutes of the game and is useless outside of autoattackers. Now add in all the damage to the lack of sustain and we get the bloodbaths we are seeing. Even going to the fountain to heal up takes forever these days.

So riot has weakened sustain but with all these keystones they've made burst more frequent and more potent and they've nerfed tanks "because pros are too good with tanks". They clearly want games to be bloodbaths.

What’s the old saying? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Yet, a system that ran successfully for 5+ years suddenly had to go just for the sake of satisfying someone’s curiosity most likely.

This is why I hate the reworks of late. It seems like riot is trying to tweak things that were fine and people loved.

Take frostbutt irelia. There was nothing wrong with that skin and a ton of people loved it, but riot deleted it anyways because some derpy reject of an artist didn't like the theme. One of Irelia's 2 best skins was deleted completely on a whim. Then you get all the lore changes and retcons that have made me stop caring about the lore because I couldn't be bothered to relearn everything and the reworked stuff is crap.

It's not just the balance team that has an issue. I think this goes straight to the top because all departments are infected with this nonsense.

So when did all this BS start, people might ask

The Karma rework. Rito started on the path to the darkside on the Karma rework.

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZrlPAdPf,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-07-28T05:53:37.684+0000)

HateDaddy, since you bring up sustain I would riot has become more and more anti-sustain in recent years. I'm wondering if it is partly because sustain slows things down and makes pro-play a little harder to watch because pros are great at disengaging and people don't want to watch fights end without a kill. Getting rid of sustain means a trade now will make a kill in the near future more likely.

A great example of sustain issues are all the "sustain" runes that the new system offers. You get a tiny bit infrequently. The most reliable form of sustain is legends: bloodline and that's a complete joke for the first 10 minutes of the game and is useless outside of autoattackers. Now add in all the damage to the lack of sustain and we get the bloodbaths we are seeing. Even going to the fountain to heal up takes forever these days.

So riot has weakened sustain but with all these keystones they've made burst more frequent and more potent and they've nerfed tanks "because pros are too good with tanks". They clearly want games to be bloodbaths.

This is why I hate the reworks of late. It seems like riot is trying to tweak things that were fine and people loved.

Take frostbutt irelia. There was nothing wrong with that skin and a ton of people loved it, but riot deleted it anyways because some derpy reject of an artist didn't like the theme. One of Irelia's 2 best skins was deleted completely on a whim. Then you get all the lore changes and retcons that have made me stop caring about the lore because I couldn't be bothered to relearn everything and the reworked stuff is crap.

It's not just the balance team that has an issue. I think this goes straight to the top because all departments are infected with this nonsense.

So when did all this BS start, people might ask

The Karma rework. Rito started on the path to the darkside on the Karma rework.

They’ve always been rather anti-sustain because typically sustain was the premire stat for bruisers in the past, and riot hated(-d, +s) bruisers.

BobaFlautist2 votes

The only mistake they made was not just giving everyone the like 9 flat armor and 12 flat Mr or whatever that everyone used to have.

"Everyone basically starts the game with 10 free flat pen as well as damage amps and the appropriate/ad they would have otherwise. Hmm, damage seems a bit high, weird."

Shobek2 votes

The old runes were super cool; I really miss them.

Smite used to work with spell vamp so i would run it in lane as Akali with 6% spell vamp quints and scaling ad reds for spell vamp heal.

Then i'd run scaling Armor and MR so that i could build more offensive items. The smite heal would get you through the early game and then mid / late game the scaling mr / ad would kick in strong and give you a mid game power spike where you could pop off if you farmed really well.

With enough foresight the runes would let you customize your build depending on the enemy team makeup.

Its fun having MANY different builds with champions because you are able to customize with runes. This system needs to come back and everyone should get all the runes for FREE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fah0DO5BFsM

In the above video smite healed for about 400-500 at that point in the game. It secured that by getting me fed on farm early and healing me then. I I used to play this game and target power spikes at different points of the game pretty deep time wise and it got me into diamond 7 + times.

Now it seems that if you're not a juggernaut or the flavor of the month dominating the early game you lose; and there is not the ability to innovate and make strong strategies.

The flow of the game is extremely difficult to grasp right now.

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

Nah, the biggest mistake by far is the forced Dynamic que during the entirety of Season 6, along with the blatant lying that went along with it. Promising solo que after a few weeks, then delaying it, and then zero communication during the months afterwards. It was a total scumbag move that will always be the worst mistake Riot ever made.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

oh em gee it's HateDaddy +1

Napoleon31 votes

i agree with you bro also some reworks are destroying the balance of the game i mean old champions where with 50% power and 50% weakness not full powerfull like for example zed vladimir wukong and other suffer in weakness for example tf he got the weakest early game and you can counter him late game with only 1 qss and some hp items

Napoleon31 votes

new runes and items champions are destoying the fun of this game and i really think riot dosnt care about if the most people agree with that they are ok but the most people will just play the following champions waiting to win the most games zed quinn vladimir yasuo darius draven and other but riot still dosnt care they buff draven and vayne when they where powerful at all league seasons and let adcs like sivir uselles with 0 buffs when actually draven and vayne dosnt even deserve buff they deserve nerfs

Napoleon31 votes

new runes sucks and gives the game cancer with fun to play with and disaster and nightmare to play against

Napoleon31 votes

just deal with it riot failed and you should agree too riot is lying us and they dont care to balance the game from the fiora rework the balance started being shit who cares if you need skills if you are skilled that dosnt mean you will kill all your enemys no mather what he is is unfair this game suposend to be a teamplay game and fair not making champions duelist can 1vs5 or 1vs2 or 1vs3 and buff them more and let other champions suffer and anyway another example of the worst balance that riot have ever done is vladimir no skills needed or brain with full retarded meta items even with those can be monster and heals all hes hp and can kill squishis or one shot very fast and being tanky at the same time can escape ganks yes that what i call no counterplay and can even fight tanks fighter mages assasins and marksmans is that a proof to see how weak is the balance right now? and for how long it will be like that vladimir even nerfs are doing nothing to balance him he is still op riot do something the game balance is shit but you still dont care

Iręlía1 votes

The keystones of the current mastery system are the only things that made my main Skarner remotely viable a few months ago during the strong adc meta. Now that MS in the runes are kinda nerfed along with summoners spell book and that fighters and tanky sustain mages are carrying, hes trash again cause you dont flash ult those kind fo people right where they want to be, in the center of your team.

It covered up the fact that his kit is just very unhealthy in general and need to be reverted and his ult needs to be replaced. it would make him a balanced fighter he was intended to be again instead of a half-assed support tank.

I have a new idea for his ult in the thread below if you wanna check it out, its really cool and enforces the scorpion crystal venom theme better than the current ult.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/a56AYcub-riot-im-pouring-my-heart-out-for-skarner-on-this-one

mack91121 votes

Old system was very linear.

I personally enjoy the new system and feel it added a new layer to the game. Yes it has created far more explosive games but it is pretty equal opportunity.

More from Gameplay

More by HateDaddy