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Assassins VS ADC's and Supports

Zerenza··9 votes·766 views

It should come to no surprise that Assassin are definitely not meta right now, the Support itemization really messed them up and made their class update virtually useless for most of the champions involved.

An assassins burst is easy to counter now, and that's perfectly fine, the main issue is Support's being able to almost triple their ADC's health bar with massive shields and heals.

Now what really bugs me is that the Support and ADC player's will constantly say "But, it's the supports job to save the ADC, why don't you catch the ADC alone?" and there lies the problem. The point of an assassin is more than just to catch a lone ADC, it's to MAKE the ADC alone, an assassins job is to remove a squishy carry from the fight but how can an assassin remove something if it already removed itself by being alone in the first place.

In addition, many of the Meta ADC's for quite awhile now are really bursty, and any ADC with a lick of sense can easily burst an assassin who's not fed. Here lies another issue, an assassins job isn't to be so far ahead that nothing can do anything to them, that was the entire point of the reworks, to remove this feast or famine issue. And here is another issue, getting fed as a Mid Lane assassin is extraordinarily difficult due to the ranged difference in mid lane. Any mage with a brain will simply auto attack from levels 1-3 and an assassin can't do anything about it.

In terms of fixing this, there are several ways but if riot continues to ignore this issue they'll just end up having to rework the assassins again and to be honest with you i love the reworks design wise because it brought them up to date so i DO NOT want that. It's just that the gap between what an assassin is designed to do and how effective they are at doing it is too great. They need ways of stopping an ADC from getting massive shields and they need ways to stop them from healing their whole health bar. They need ways to survive laning phase without having to rely on a jungler's assistance because it isn't a jungler's job to baby sit a lane. They need ways to stop an ADC from bursting them.

15 Comments

MunchCrunchLunch4 votes

this is a great thread that will most likely go ignored instead lets complain about certain champions that are the symptom and lets ignore the cause of all the meta problems

InTheory3 votes

[deleted]

Zerenza2 votes

That's kind of pointless though, if they aren't in the fight in the first place there's no reason to try and remove them anyway. Although, if the enemy team starts grouping for a fight or the ADC is little behind her team while grouping, an assassin should be able to take them out. Not necessarily right in the middle of a fight but an ADC should have to be careful about how far back from their front line they need to be.

Dêcoy2 votes

I was about to kinda agree with you up untill this:

" And here is another issue, getting fed as a Mid Lane assassin is extraordinarily difficult due to the ranged difference in mid lane. Any mage with a brain will simply auto attack from levels 1-3 and an assassin can't do anything about it. "

Ok, do you know why Ahri has such a high mobillity? Do you know why Talon can wall jump now? Do you know why Zed can blink over stuff? Why LeBlanc can dash over stuff? Assasins are NEVER meant to get fed in lane, unless you play bronze/silver/gold and your enemy is just braindead. Assasins were supposed to roam and get fed off of sidelanes. That's why they are played in midlane - because from there they have easy access to other lanes and jungle if needed. That was biggest thing with Talon - who was always supposed to be this top roaming assasin, that's why they gave him the parkour stuff.

Good Zed player will get 5/0 with enemy mid being 0/0, because Zed will just roam and kill botlane/toplane in 2v1 or 3v2 situation. Assasins were never meant for open face-to-face 1v1 combat.

"They need ways to survive laning phase without having to rely on a jungler's assistance because it isn't a jungler's job to baby sit a lane."

Again, if your mentality while playing assasins is "Ow, I have to survive lane somehow" then you are doing it wrong. Assasin player is only in his own lane for short time, needed to clear minions and push it back into enemy side of the map, then he should roam. Im not surprised that someone may not do well on assasin player, if he sits in lane whole time. You should be the one assisting your jungler with ganks in top/bot, not the other way around.

And to the point of ADCs bursting them - we are back to the fact that Assasins have clearly designed combinations and rotations of spells/slills. And if you can use them right, you can avoid a lot of damage. Jhin has his 4th shot and you are Zed? Just ult him when his 4th shot is mid-air. You deny him a lot of damage. Enemy ADC is Ashe? Wait for her ult, dodge with your ult and just blast her. Im not saying those are easy things to do - but those are things that give assasins advantages over ADCs - most of the time they either have a way to keep ADC in one place, or to dodge critical abillity.

Zerenza3 votes

"Here lies another issue, an assassins job isn't to be so far ahead that nothing can do anything to them, that was the entire point of the reworks, to remove this feast or famine issue." equal fed, i already know that's not the point of an assassin. I'm just saying that laning in mid lane against so many ranged champions is extremely difficult. One reason why which you brought up is that an assassin is supposed to push in their lane, they aren't supposed to stay in it constantly all game like a mage( pretty damn sure i know that pretentious prick). This is true BUT, did you ever consider how difficult it is to push in a lane when an enemy will poke you down to 25% health, you'll miss large amounts of EXP and Gold? It's impossible to roam in situations like that and it's so easy to put an assassin into that situation. There is no point in roaming if you can't push in your wave and if you don't have enough health to not die in said roam.

That's like telling the jungler to gank when he has half health, no mana and the ally laner isn't there. It's stupid and a waste of time, it will only make you further behind to Roam in that situation, if anything you'll only be trying to keep yourself relevant and even then you can't always do that.

Edit: like seriously i understand everything your saying, it's like you assume i have no idea what i'm talking about at all and am not an assassin player. I main assassins in mid lane XD Like, your telling me everything i already know and trying to use it against me.

Dêcoy1 votes

Well, poor you, you are greedy and instead of letting a few CS go, you go for some gold and get into enemy poke range.

What you say is quite is to do with proper wave management and movement in lane to avoid getting hit by abillities. You can easily set up a gank from your jungler at lvl 3 with most assasins - especially someone like Ahri or LB who have acces to CC level 3 - get a kill, shove the wave and either recall-roam, or roam if your HP is high enough.

But yeah, its impossible to shove wave against mages. There is absolutely nothing you can do and simply picking mage Vs Assasins wins you the lane in Pick/Ban phase, right?

Rozzeta1 votes

To make the ADC alone is the job of the engage tank. You are not supposed to show up in the battle until after someone on it can be assassinated.

MissingKayo2 votes

Incorrect.

If the enemy team or carry positions badly or the assassin is good enough to outplay multiple enemy members, they should delete the carry.

Rozzeta2 votes

Go ahead and outplay your opponents with your superior wit and cunning. Be my guest.

MissingKayo1 votes

Not possible anymore without being multiple divisions ahead of the enemy or the enemy team being complete idiots or them being AFK.

Rozzeta1 votes

Then, with outplay, you meant overpowered offensive power.

MissingKayo1 votes

What...?

The assassins are extremely weak. If an assassin player is still amazingly skilled enough to be able to outplay even just the ADC who could kill them faster than an assassin could kill an ADC, let alone multiple enemy team members, they deserve to delete the ADC.

Rozzeta1 votes

"What...?" to you too. Not sure what "amazing skill" and "outplay" you refer to if what you're stating is that the assassin should attack the ADC while not being seen/outside the range of attack, and burn all the cooldowns for a kill. Specially so when your idea of assassination always seem to involve fighting an enemy less skilled than you., that is bound to make mistakes. It's not impossible for a skilled player to make a position mistake, though, if they have to deal with a tanky engage unit. You entering the battle late is the best way to capitalize, which lead us back to first post. Not sure if you were expecting the ADC wandering the jungle alone or something.

If the burst potential of an ADC is higher than that of an assassin, then that's an issue with the ADC class.

MissingKayo2 votes

Right now, assassins are in a terrible spot and can't even meaningfully burst because of how delayed it is.

Hence, they suck at assassinating.

If they were actually decent at it, groupwork would still hard counter them.

I meant in that theoretical situation where they're actually in a decent spot, if the assassin player is skilled enough to dodge/outplay multiple enemy team players' spells and abilities, they deserve the kill on the ADC.

If they can do that NOW when assassins are horrendously weak, they by all means absolutely deserve the kill.

And yes, it's fun when an ADC has better burst on a sustained DPS level than an assassin.

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