Karma needs another rework

Death by Glamour·Nov 20, 2015·5 votes·677 views

Anyone else agree?

Sure she does alot of damage, no where near as much as any other midlaners.

Sure she has a utility, no where near as much as lulu nami or thresh. Even bard is arguably better.

Karma has no niche. She lacks damage to play solo lanes and lacks enough utility to be a succesful support.

Arguably on the current state of the game she may be quite good. She is afterall a strong early game duelist, up to lvl 4 she is arguably one of the strongest champions in the game and as we have seen games are often decided in the first 10 to 15 minutes. However this is preseason and things will change in these next two months and likely not in karmas favour.

As to how karma should be changed i am unsure, though i do believe she needs to bevome either a true utility support similar to lulu and nami or become a pure damage solo laner.

Please leave your thoughs guys

22 Comments

IxtaliKingNov 20, 20153 votes

I agree, she could do with a more defined niche.

Aeolian MelodiesNov 20, 20152 votes

Lol she does not lack damage. What she lacks is hard CC but considering she has 2 soft CC, self-sustain, shields, speed buffs, and decent AoE damage, it's not really an issue for her.

Death by GlamourNov 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zgq7eFhb,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-11-20T01:55:32.785+0000)

Lol she does not lack damage. What she lacks is hard CC but considering she has 2 soft CC, self-sustain, shields, speed buffs, and decent AoE damage, it's not really an issue for her.

Yes she does more damage than most supports early. Other pokey supports out scale her by a mile

Zyra more damage more cc good ult

Lulu similar damage more utility

Sona has heals poke a speed up not to mention her powercords and a gamewinning ult.

Full ap midlaner build is weaker than any other midlaner, she has two damaging abilities for a start that cripples her. Her ap ratios are bad.

Zair UmbrasNov 20, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ace 1n your hole,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zgq7eFhb,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-11-20T02:06:44.620+0000)

Yes she does more damage than most supports early. Other pokey supports out scale her by a mile

Zyra more damage more cc good ult

Lulu similar damage more utility

Sona has heals poke a speed up not to mention her powercords and a gamewinning ult.

Full ap midlaner build is weaker than any other midlaner, she has two damaging abilities for a start that cripples her. Her ap ratios are bad.

AP Ratios are bad... what..? Her Q is a 60%, going up to 90% on the first hit and if you have them CC'd with W, it can do the 60% from the detonation... Her W has a 90% scaling... In just a W+R'd Q, you can do 240% of your AP and 785 base from Q with 260 base from W. That's 1045 base damage... and 2.4x her AP...

I comparison to an actual AP mage, one that's always done well.. Lux. Lux's Q does 260+70%, E does 240+60%, R does 500+75%, and passive does a max of 154+20%. That's 225% Ratio and 1154 base. That's 109 more base for 15% less AP.

Karma ratios are incredibly high, her burst is high, her everything is good. Her only downside is her R's CD is a bit high even if it does go down. Given her reliance on her mantra Q, the best way to fix her isn't to give her more damage or rework her, it's to reduce the CD on her mantra or increase the range on her Q.

Death by GlamourNov 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zgq7eFhb,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-11-20T02:23:45.232+0000)

AP Ratios are bad... what..? Her Q is a 60%, going up to 90% on the first hit and if you have them CC'd with W, it can do the 60% from the detonation... Her W has a 90% scaling... In just a W+R'd Q, you can do 240% of your AP and 785 base from Q with 260 base from W. That's 1045 base damage... and 2.4x her AP...

I comparison to an actual AP mage, one that's always done well.. Lux. Lux's Q does 260+70%, E does 240+60%, R does 500+75%, and passive does a max of 154+20%. That's 225% Ratio and 1154 base. That's 109 more base for 15% less AP.

Karma ratios are incredibly high, her burst is high, her everything is good. Her only downside is her R's CD is a bit high even if it does go down. Given her reliance on her mantra Q, the best way to fix her isn't to give her more damage or rework her, it's to reduce the CD on her mantra or increase the range on her Q.

You are compairing a long range control mage to a mid range burst mage.

Lux can also hit multiple people with all her abilities and make good picks with q. She is also a fairly safe pic thanks to range and is good waveclear.

Karma has to get up close to do damage which wull open herself up to either getting bursted down or cced (unlessn ofc you want to use your cds on the tanks). And no the movement speed from e will not stop you from getting focused.

Two that fill a similar role to karma are viegar and annie. Both mid range bursters.

Annie has a flash tibbers in her pocket and can 100 to 0 any squishy.

Viegar does the smae but he can 100 to 0 a tank.

Lissandra is another similar mage but she is used to shut down mobile assasins.

Zair UmbrasNov 20, 20151 votes

Then I'll show you Annie's abilities...

Annie's Q, 220+80%. W, 250+85%. R, 425+80%. That's 895+245%. Karma does 145 more base for 5% less AP ratio. For 5% to equal 145 means Annie would need 2.8k AP before she did more than Karma... >>

This is on top of the fact that Karma is a poke-based mage with powerful all-in ability. Can she be CC'd and killed? Yeah. So can EVERY mage EVER. Annie is also considered a short range mage where-as Veigar is considered an anti-Mage. Not a certain-range burster. No. Veigar is an anti-mage, though he's more of an anti-squishy since his ratios, while not the highest in the game (60% on Q, 100% on W, 100% on R, totaling 260% which is high, but LB does much, much more surprisingly.), it's still enough to murder most squishies, especially with the AP boost he has as his Q's passive.

Aeolian MelodiesNov 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ace 1n your hole,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zgq7eFhb,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-11-20T02:06:44.620+0000)

Yes she does more damage than most supports early. Other pokey supports out scale her by a mile

Zyra more damage more cc good ult

Lulu similar damage more utility

Sona has heals poke a speed up not to mention her powercords and a gamewinning ult.

Full ap midlaner build is weaker than any other midlaner, she has two damaging abilities for a start that cripples her. Her ap ratios are bad.

Zyra has more damage via plants, harder CC, Karma has speed buffs and shields (and Zyra is also significantly squishier).

Karma has better damage than Lulu.

Sona's dmg falls FLAT after the laning phase unless you built her with item 3100 , her heal is weaker than Karma's shield, her speed buff is weaker than the one tied to Karma's shield, Staccato has no impact outside of the laning phase, Diminuendo no one really sees what it does, and Temp you need to get in to AA whereas Karma spams slows from safe range. I'll give you the ult though.

Skinny LatteNov 20, 20151 votes

i think shes fine, but her tether needs to not break so easily.

Death by GlamourNov 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

i think shes fine, but her tether needs to not break so easily.

Thats why you q then w or e then w... but as you point out ahe has no hard cc at all, a weakness for a support.

Also small ap scalings a weakness for midlaners

So i cant see why you think she is fine

DrNovaNov 20, 20151 votes

I love karma. I can take her main vs a pretty good range of enemy champs just fine.

She actually has great damage, its just loaded all in her RQ . but its mean, and because she has all that utility she can make some mean outplays imo

I just think you may not be proficient enough in using her

Death by GlamourNov 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I love karma. I can take her main vs a pretty good range of enemy champs just fine.

She actually has great damage, its just loaded all in her RQ . but its mean, and because she has all that utility she can make some mean outplays imo

I just think you may not be proficient enough in using her

Compare her damage to other ap mages, its far far lower.

DrNovaNov 20, 20151 votes

Outright damage only means so more much. There is more to a match then just getting kills vs your lane.

Her utility combined with her damage which you seem to undervalue, can make or break team fights. She can steal drag and baron with Q very easily. Great siege and siege defence. Lock down people going after your carries. Team wide shield. A powerful speed boost for engages or to help someone flee.

Like I said I think you just need to play her more to figure out how good she can be.

Death by GlamourNov 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Outright damage only means so more much. There is more to a match then just getting kills vs your lane.

Her utility combined with her damage which you seem to undervalue, can make or break team fights. She can steal drag and baron with Q very easily. Great siege and siege defence. Lock down people going after your carries. Team wide shield. A powerful speed boost for engages or to help someone flee.

Like I said I think you just need to play her more to figure out how good she can be.

She cant steal a dragon vs a 1k smite + an elise or nunu q.... wtf are you talking about.

Dude she lacks utility compaired to every other support dear god what dont you understand....

She can peel a bit i give you that but it is root not a stun. Even taric with an iceborne gauntlet can peel better than karma

You yourself have a negative win ratio on her... so i suggest you take your own advice.

You still cant grasp the fact that she sits inbetween ap midlaner and support. Excells at neither and is a jack of all trades master of none.

Lulu is perhaps the closest of all the supports to her but is a far greater pick in both support and solo roles.

Similar damage which is easier to land and is far more usefull to a team.

DrNovaNov 20, 20151 votes

Lol whatever you say. I honestly don't care if you like her.

Death by GlamourNov 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lol whatever you say. I honestly don't care if you like her.

I do like her, wouldnt have made this if i didnt

KarbuncleNov 20, 20151 votes

I'm glad you're sensible,all the other people posting just don't get it.

Death by GlamourNov 20, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inquisitor Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zgq7eFhb,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-11-20T09:21:45.283+0000)

I'm glad you're sensible,all the other people posting just don't get it.

Glad to see a karma main agreeing with me

The Bearded BardNov 20, 20151 votes

Probably because she's not a mid laner, she's a top laner.

Come on, you've got to be blind not to see it. She was made to destroy top laners.

Juggernauts? Darius Nasus TahmKench Garen Never gonna get anywhere near her. She's gonna hammer them from afar with mantra'd Q's, snare them with ease when they charge in, shield away in the event that those two fail.

Top lane mages? Vladimir Lissandra Kennen Ryze Rumble Swain All have too little range to deal with Karma.

Tanks? DrMundo Gnar Maokai Renekton Taric Volibear Her disengage and sustain is too strong for them to kill her.

As a top laner, she excels at dueling during lane phase and being very near ungankable if played well. Late game she's fantastic at keeping her teammates alive, setting up fights, catching out lone enemies, poking, disengaging, engaging, and providing damage. She's also great at locking down stealth champs and mobile champs with W.

Personally, I think she's a fine champions, very versatile and fun to play. Easily one of my best and favorite champions in this game.

Death by GlamourNov 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zgq7eFhb,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-11-20T10:23:57.137+0000)

Probably because she's not a mid laner, she's a top laner.

Come on, you've got to be blind not to see it. She was made to destroy top laners.

Juggernauts? Never gonna get anywhere near her. She's gonna hammer them from afar with mantra'd Q's, snare them with ease when they charge in, shield away in the event that those two fail.

Top lane mages? All have too little range to deal with Karma.

Tanks? Her disengage and sustain is too strong for them to kill her.

As a top laner, she excels at dueling during lane phase and being very near ungankable if played well. Late game she's fantastic at keeping her teammates alive, setting up fights, catching out lone enemies, poking, disengaging, engaging, and providing damage. She's also great at locking down stealth champs and mobile champs with W.

Personally, I think she's a fine champions, very versatile and fun to play. Easily one of my best and favorite champions in this game.

Thats how i play her

KarbuncleNov 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zgq7eFhb,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-11-20T10:23:57.137+0000)

Probably because she's not a mid laner, she's a top laner.

Come on, you've got to be blind not to see it. She was made to destroy top laners.

Juggernauts? Never gonna get anywhere near her. She's gonna hammer them from afar with mantra'd Q's, snare them with ease when they charge in, shield away in the event that those two fail.

Top lane mages? All have too little range to deal with Karma.

Tanks? Her disengage and sustain is too strong for them to kill her.

As a top laner, she excels at dueling during lane phase and being very near ungankable if played well. Late game she's fantastic at keeping her teammates alive, setting up fights, catching out lone enemies, poking, disengaging, engaging, and providing damage. She's also great at locking down stealth champs and mobile champs with W.

Personally, I think she's a fine champions, very versatile and fun to play. Easily one of my best and favorite champions in this game.

Those juggernauts you listed never even have to chase you,they really don't need to interact with you at all because of their sustain

If you're actually played against any of those mages you'd know they do way more damage and she doesn't have a chance in hell at killing the mages with sustain

Again these Tanks that can't kill her REALLY do not need to Karma has no chance in killing them either while they scale into the game while Karma falls off because her mid range isn't usable late game not to mention she wont have any kills

She's always been a good laner,but that's literally it PLENTY of champions have a good laning phase AND Late game while Karma lacks any as she's reduced to an AOE shield bot which contrary to popular belief is one of the WORST speed buffs in the game and is really oversold by people that don't know what they're talking about.

Not to mention you yourself are negative with Karma

The Bearded BardNov 20, 20151 votes

Lane phase isn't about killing your opponent, it's about gaining gold while keeping your opponent from gaining gold. You sit between the minions and the tank/juggernaut, forcing them to either miss farm or engage on you and lose the trade. Darius has no sustain if he can't hit you with Q, Garen has no sustain if you keep him from using his passive, Nasus has no sustain unless he can hit something, the list goes on. As for the mages, Karma is easily one of Vlad's biggest counters. Vlad's never going to get near her, will continue to take damage and be snared while in pool, and Karma's core items are morellos and liandrys.

But enough of that, obviously you're too fixed on my personal w/l with karma top to listen to reason. A true Karma main wouldn't want changes to her.

Subject 5Nov 20, 20151 votes

I play her well, buffing her damage would be incredibly impossible to deal with. Neither is buffing her cool downs. Considering she has a Q every 2.75 seconds with max cdr now.