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A (sort of) Jhin mains thoughts on Jhins balance right now.

Skorch··9 votes·2,472 views

So before this turns into a Lethality thread: My thoughts on Lethality is either Lethality is too strong, or something else about Lethality items are too strong. I not only don't believe Lethality is as penetrating ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) as people beleive, and I also think that NO ONE build full pen (except MF) Lethality is definitely too strong somewhere though

Now that that's out of the way lets talk about Jhin: Jhin is Ezreal

What?

Yes Jhin is the new Ezreal. Outside of Pen patches Jhin has never been really (REALLY) strong. Ironically I consider him usually the 4th best (MMMMMMM) ADC in any NON PEN BASED Meta, as we have had one before. On pen based Metas Jhin becomes REALLY strong, but usually in Pen metas PEN IS TOO STRONG.

Now let me reitterate. Jhin has actually always been a good pick since his release (which lets be honest that is the way it should be, ANY champion should always be valid) But in Crit ADC metas Jhin gets outclassed. And even in Pen metas (while he is still strong) Jhin still has some people better than him. This is why I say he is the new Ezreal.

Jhin is always a good pick, but rarely the best pick. Almost every IF NOT every Pro-league player can pick Ezreal in any meta and do fine. There are just always better options. And I feel like Jhin is the same way.

I dont think Jhin directly needs nerfs, Lethality items right now need nerfs. And since hes sitting on a 51.5% winrate, We'll see where that leaves him AFTER lethality changes as those for certain are coming. Nerfing Jhin i feel may leave him in a bad place after Lethality gets nerfed and it would just be a short sighted reaction.

And before people start hitting me on "BUT MY PICK RATE" yes according to LeagueofGraphs Jhin is the #1 most picked champ in the game. But I think that is more based on his fun factor as well as his satisfaction factor as well as him being strong for lethality.

61 Comments

MissingKayo7 votes

People whine too much.

Yes Jhin is undoubtedly strong and one of the best ADCs in the game.

There also isn't much to compare to because just about every single ADC except like a handful are garbage.

They need buffs. Jhin doesn't need nerfs. He has clear strengths and weaknesses and ways to counterplay.

Also Lethality is cancer.

THE RlVER KlNG5 votes

He's sitting on a 52% winrate with a 35% playrate

yes, very balanced

Skorch7 votes

As i said, not to him being strong, but to lethality being overtuned as of right now. And yes his playrate is insane but there are other reasons people play champions than them being strong.

THE RlVER KlNG4 votes

Jesus the Jhin community are so blind

He has the highest playrate in the game by 8% and has been the #1 ADC for months, even when crit Vayne and Twitch were in meta.....

Just because you play him and think lethality is the only problem doesn't make it true

MissingKayo6 votes

And just because you whine and QQ about a champion you don't know how to play against doesn't make your whining true either.

And just because you fail to understand that champion X being good and almost every other champion in X's category being garbage doesn't make X broken.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

Big surprise some Jhin main mad because people are catching up to his main's bullshit would defend something that is obviously overtuned

You don't get these numbers on anyone else. He's pick-ban in the LCS and your ridiculous delusion that every other ADC is garbage is flat-out wrong.

MissingKayo6 votes

QQ more. Ignore every piece of data.

Stay bad.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

Stay an obnoxious apologist with Sona syndrome

MissingKayo6 votes

QQ more.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

Continue to use the same argument

'You're bad and every ADC except Jhin is garbage; that is the only reason why he is meta QQ more'

MissingKayo6 votes

Hi pot, I'm kettle.

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

continue to have no evidence whatsoever and rely on the whiny Jhin fanbase to buoy your unfounded claims

Spârky5 votes

Pick-ban in lcs that doesnt mean hes op even azir has gotten played in LCS and hes not even close to pick ban in lcs. How about varus who is always first rotation

Skorch8 votes

I agree that Jhins fanbase is very dedicated (although not as dedicated as say Kled and Morde) I like him for his thematic. BUT playrate doesnt determine strength. Vayne and Twitch were way stronger than jhin in that meta AND there has been 1 patch i can think of when he was THE BEST adc.

And lets be honest ANY pro-champion circlejerk (I also wouldnt call this a circlejerk post) is better than any ANTI-champion circlejerk. They can be annoying when they are convinced their champ is bad when its sitting on highest winrate Shaco But the Jhin circlejerk is just "no one complained before, why is he op now?"

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

People have always complained about Jhin. HIs massive playerbase, just like Ahri's, silences them. People were too busy whining about Caitlyn and Vayne when they didn't see Jhin right before their noses.

Skorch7 votes

Because Caitlyn and Vayne ARE bigger threats THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THIS POST.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

Ummm.....no?

Both have less win and play rates. Vayne is not pick ban in the LCS and Cait, while still an option, has fallen out of favor. Neither have held the #1 ADC spot for months on end.

Skorch6 votes

You mean. Right now? Your saying people have been complaining about Vayne and Cait THIS patch, not on the previous patches when they were strong AND better than Jhin in terms of winrates?

Your arguing several half-unrelated things at once.

And you already know my stance on Pick-rate NO CORRELATION to strength

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

Pick-rate + winrate has a massive correlation to strength. When over a third of League's playerbase is picking this champion and winning over half the time, then something is wrong and it is indicative of an outlier of strength. Cut the bullshit.

I can't even understand what you are saying before that because it is complete gibberish marred by several grammatical mistakes.

Skorch5 votes

Okay listen here sonny jim, I am trying to keep up with several threads and comments right now, im typing quickly not perfectly. I find that a low blow insult that has no relevancy here.

Back on Topic Pick Rate and Winrate together have a correlation on balance yes, Winrate itself does not. People are too use to the idea of Yasuo and Lee where high pickrate =/= even winrate. However Jhin is VASTLY more simple than those champs so a high pickrate and AN EVEN WINRATE is perfectly within reason

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

Nice excuse, but so am I.

What the fuck are you even babbling about?

You're saying it's okay for Jhin to have both a higher playrate and winrate than Lee and Yasuo (his pickrate is higher than the both of theirs combined) because he is easy to play?

His winrate is not even, it's 52%. That is on the high end of the winrate scale.

Skorch7 votes

It depends on where you look for winrate i have seen it fluctuate. AND IF A CHAMPION IS LESS DIFFICULT PICKRATES CORRELATION TO WINRATE LESSENS, if a champ is easier people can pick them up easier

EDIT: AND YOUR GRAMMAR ISNT PERFECT TOO BUDDY

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

HEY LOOK I CAN TYPE IN ALL CAPS AND GIVE NO RELEVANT EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER TOO BUDDY

EASY CHAMPIONS WITH MASSIVE PICKRATES SHOULD HAVE HIGH WINRATES BECAUSE THEY ARE EASY AND FUN

THAT IN NO WAY BREAKS THE BALANCE OF LEAGUE OF LEGENDS

Boringpoem1321 votes

Guys, this guy is just trolling as all of you can probably tell. "A third of the community plays this champion". Thats actually like 3% considering there are 10 people who play in each ranked game. ~33% pickrate per GAME. Adc's are probably around 20% of the player base. There isnsome evidence for you rather than an fbomb which is probably what a troll like you was hoping for. Now let's be a big boy and stop spending all of your time trolling on a form riot isnt gonna look at, k?

Spârky4 votes

Im not gonna lie as an adc main i so agree with you even in this lethality meta he's still at best number 2 behind mf who is so good with lethality

MissingKayo2 votes

"Just walk out of her ultimate"

Yeah because it's not like our team got CC'd or trapped in a narrow space which is why she ulted in the first place.

Cresmont4 votes

jhin main, i feel like he is a bit too strong but he will always be a staple pick and like you said, is the new ezreal, just infinitely more fun which will only boost that. there are the spammers, and yes he's strong but hes not OVERly strong

look at any plat-challenger game. There's varus who is aids to play against, lethality mf, jhin twitch, ezreal, vayne. its honestly just whatever they feel like their team needs, but jhin is such a jack of all trades that he'll always be good enough for people to play him while never being bad enough that people won't play him. think similar to ekko how he has burst, consistent, mobility, waveclear, hard cc, outplay potential but isnt the best at any one of these except maybe outplay potential

masterdragon4813 votes

I agree, I think lethality is a bigger problem. That being said, what Riot wants to nerf is pretty fair; wave clear. They aren't really hitting how hard he is hitting. Due to his ad scaling, his Q and E do kinda get pretty nuts as the game goes later.

Skorch5 votes

To be honest i cant actually find his changes on surrender at 20. But at the same time i dont think 51.5% winrate is deserving of a nerf. usually any change will change AT LEAST 1%.

Jhin gets nerfed 51.5 > ~50% Lethality gets nerfed 50% > 49%

Albeit 49% isnt that bad. I just still find it unnecessary as we KNOW lethality is getting nerfed why preemptively nerf jhin too? Very few people were complaining about him before lethality so what makes him too strong now?

masterdragon4812 votes

Changes were mentioned in a red post; nothing on the PBE yet. Red mentioned nerfs to R (changes to the slow) and trap damage vs minions.

So it would appear that while Riot thinks Jhin is a little out of line, they don't think it has anything to do with his damage, just with the utility its bringing.

Lethality nerfs aren't going to affect any of the things riot is thinking of nerfing; so while its annoying that a "double nerf" is coming it isn't really as bad as that.

JavelinJoe2 votes

I think it more has to do with players not wanting to have to actively dodge Jhin's ults once slowed. 0.75s is nothing, so 0.5s is even worse. Why even give him that slow anyways then? he cant even fire the next shot in 0.5s.

Skorch2 votes

That actually is to make him have MORE utility as it slows them for your team

JavelinJoe2 votes

hmm. Well gl to us when trying to hit all 4 shots now on the intended target I guess.

Skorch2 votes

Well i think thats a fair things, hitting one then getting others for free is a LITTLE dumb.

JavelinJoe2 votes

I would not say it was free, enemy champions still had a lot of opportunity to dodge shots, especially when further away from Jhin. So 0.25s less might make every shot pure luck based which is not as fair to Jhin then. That is my only concern.

masterdragon4813 votes

Well the idea is that because he is hitting from so far away (usually) its unfair not really intended for him to have an easy time getting a kill with just ulti.

Catching someone on the wrong side of a turret, in a narrow choke in the jungle....thats good planning and will still be rewarded. But ulting up bot lane with no chance of relatiation and the ability to kill with the 4 shots is a little much.

The ultimate, aptly called "Curtain Call" isn't intended to 100-0 anyone its more of a finisher. Thats why it got shifted from base+% missing to less base more % missing a while back. Lethality has blown it a bit out of proportion for the moment.

I would actually prefer to remove the slow entirely, up the missile speed a little, and have the shot speed scale with Jhin's attack speed the way his normal autos do (I'm not entirely sure this isn't the case already).

50000000000000002 votes

I thought you were gonna say "he'll break every pen item in the game, like Ezreal breaks every on-hit item in the game" or something on that line.

Verdade2 votes

Ezreal doesn't break every on-hit item in game tho :/item 3091 item 3124 item 3115 item 1416 item 3087 {

Looknook2 votes

Yeah just every sheen item

50000000000000002 votes

Oops, my bad. That's what I meant.

Skorch2 votes

You know that is also true, then again mf does it better.

Into The Aether2 votes

It is odd that he has Crit and AS scaling in his passive, but it scales so much better with penetration.

It takes 100% crit for the crit scaling in his passive to match what he gets from leveling, and with his 4th shot being an autocrit and a 25% reduction in crit damage, he has 2 innate losses to the efficiency of the stat.

And he'd need 160% AS to get as much out of AS as he gets from leveling, 51% of which comes from leveling by level 18. And his other reduced interaction with AS is pretty obvious, he doesn't actually attack faster from it.

Whereas penetration scales his passive's damage from all sources. The execute, the damage from leveling, the damage from any crit or AS he gets. Also his AD caster type abilities, and then normal auto scaling besides.

Kinda reminds me of Draven, who also likes penetration stats due to his best steroid not having a multiplicative interaction with crit.

MaeDoSan1 votes

Never seen an ezreal doing a shit ton of damage. If riot turns jhin into another ez I would be more than happy

Skorch4 votes

Jhin is ez as in, an always good pick. But never the best pick.

MaeDoSan1 votes

If they nerf his execute damage by 5% at all ranks then I would say he is balanced

MissingKayo1 votes

It doesn't need nerfs.

Spârky4 votes

key word there execute damage. He doesnt have dps like other adc's and that is because he only has 4 shots. He only executes and if you play around his 4th shot you are fine in lane

MaeDoSan1 votes

Then lets say he gets nerfed , which part would you let get nerfed first ?

Spârky1 votes

I like what riot are doing next patch. Reducing his waveclear on his e dmg to minions and making his r slow last .5 seconds rather than .75 seconds. If they were to do further stuff i'd probably do some cd increases on his w/r

MaeDoSan1 votes

Then I guess Riot somehow got his weird damage scaling and movement speed buff numbers exactly right on release

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