unless my champion can't use Trinity.
Trinity gives me everything better except tank killing (which Conqueror covers)
I can kill squishes faster thanks to Sheen, I can DPS better with AS, I can split push better because Sheen works on towers, I'm still getting good stats, and so on.
Black Cleaver is cheaper and that's really it. You only buy it if you're behind. I see more assassins buying it than bruisers.
It's kind of bothersome.
WeeWeeBojangles9 votesIt also has armor shread, meaning if you can get some stacks off then your adc is doing more damage. Then it also depends on the champion. Personally i prefer BC on Darius because one ability applies all stacks of the cleaver passive.
LTK KoRo15 votesNo one plays bruisers to support your ADCs damage output, even if it's beneficial for the team
WeeWeeBojangles6 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJqYZ24I,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-09T19:14:53.971+0000)
No one plays bruisers to support your ADCs damage output, even if it's beneficial for the team
Im not saying that people do or do not buy BC for this reason I'm just saying its a reason to consider when determining the two items.
Sir Saltarin2 votesWhy tho, it would be great
LTK KoRo5 votesBooooooo
no it wouldn't be great, bruisers exist only to deal damage and not support people like beta ivern mains, adcs are stealing our jobs :(((
Critmaster Garen12 votesIt also has armor shread, meaning if you can get some stacks off then your adc is doing more damage. Then it also depends on the champion. Personally i prefer BC on Darius because one ability applies all stacks of the cleaver passive.
one auto + w on darius with sheen wrecks squshies.
thats way more valuable than a little bit more damage against tanks. darius has enough sustained damage to kill tanks either way. no tank is really able to stand up to a 5 stacked darius, so there isnt really a reason for cleaver. what darius wants is the ability to instagib squishies for the short windows he has to dunk them.
not to mention the attack speed on triforce allows darius to stack faster and deal more sustained damage to tanks aswell.
cleaver just needs a straight buff.
Saevum3 votesBC needs to be melee only, so then, they can buff it back. Otherwise, we are stuck with current BC buildpath and gutted Armor shred passive.
YumaS2Astral3 votesBC needs to be melee only, so then, they can buff it back. Otherwise, we are stuck with current BC buildpath and gutted Armor shred passive.
The problem is that 
would be left without a core item for him. Black Cleaver is his core item and he can't use Trinity Force well. This would be a massive nerf to Urgot, and he is already hurt by the fact that he can't build 
would also be forced into building Trinity Force, since he currently builds The Black Cleaver most of time and he would be left with no other good options (although I am not really sure why Triforce Gnar isn't a thing already).
would also be affected, but not nearly as much, since he can use other items just as well and he has many other options for cooldown reduction.
SociaI Justice7 voteswait this would nerf 3 of the oppressive cancer top laners? how is that a bad thing?
Spaceman713 votes[{quoted}](name=SociaI Justice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJqYZ24I,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-10T19:05:02.397+0000)
wait this would nerf 3 of the oppressive cancer top laners? how is that a bad thing?
It wouldn't just nerf Urgot, it would literally gut him. Gnar would be left quite wanting, and Jayce would survive. Still, just because something is op does not mean it should be nerfed into the ground, it should be nerfed until it's balanced.
SociaI Justice2 votesnah ranged tops should be removed from the game.
AirKingNeo1 votesUrgot is hardly ranged.
Tychusfindlay9181 votes[{quoted}](name=SociaI Justice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJqYZ24I,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-10T19:05:02.397+0000)
wait this would nerf 3 of the oppressive cancer top laners? how is that a bad thing?
Urgot isn't all that oppressive after latest nerfs TBH, nor was he ever incredibly oppressive to begin with. Urgot's problem has been his insane lane safety combined with his relatively high scaling and teamfight utility with R. He has it all.
Making cleaver melee only however would absolutely murder him into uselessness unless riot coded for him to be a special case melee so he can still access it.
YumaS2Astral1 votes[{quoted}](name=SociaI Justice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJqYZ24I,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-10T19:05:02.397+0000)
wait this would nerf 3 of the oppressive cancer top laners? how is that a bad thing?
You really want Urgot to lose his core item?
Gnar can at least survive because he can always build Triforce instead, and Jayce has many other options for armor penetration/shred and CDR.
Urgot has neither of those things, and would need to have his kit massively buffed to compensate, which would be frustrating for both Urgot players themselves, and their enemies. As I said, Urgot already suffers because he can't build Sterak's Gage (that is why he has such high base stats)
MessyStuff1 votesWhy not make it available to some champs(ik it never has been before) instead of melee/ranged?
YumaS2Astral1 votesWhy not make it available to some champs(ik it never has been before) instead of melee/ranged?
I think Riot wants to be consistent with the champions and not just make exceptions for certain cases, even though this would probably be the correct choice. Which is why they don't make Urgot be able to build Steraks (btw he would probably receive nerfs to his base stats if he was able to build Steraks) or other examples, such as not making Thresh count as a melee for the purposes of procing Relic Shield and its upgrades (he is ranged).
Rathar Dashing6 votesI don't think it should be melee only, but it should be given the Rageblade/Wit's End treatment, where it can be stacked more efficiently by melee champions without becoming broken on Graves, or other ranged abusers.
Saevum2 votesOr, set a different limit threshold according to the champion that is using it.
24% for ranged.
32% for melee.
That at least would attempt to tackle the passive problem. IF the item wants to be kept for Ranged champions.
That does not solve the buildpath tho.
Tychusfindlay9181 votesOr, set a different limit threshold according to the champion that is using it.
24% for ranged.
32% for melee.
That at least would attempt to tackle the passive problem. IF the item wants to be kept for Ranged champions.
That does not solve the buildpath tho.
Build path cannot be changed. Bringing the path back to caulfields would just make it cancerous on assassins and skirmishers again who shouldn't really be using it optimally in the first place.
ChiefDovahkin4 votesBC needs to be melee only, so then, they can buff it back. Otherwise, we are stuck with current BC buildpath and gutted Armor shred passive.
This ^ BC needs a buff, but lucian/mf abusing the heck out of it currently, more than Dar/Garen/Urgot ever did
Starcraft243ver1 votescleaver just needs a straight buff.
I think you meant to write : "Trinity just needs a straight nerf".
Rathar Dashing7 votesBC gives more health, and more AD, so for champions who don't auto attack constantly or who get large portions of their damage from abilities (Renekton, Riven, etc) those champions don't need the attack speed it gives. It also doesn't have mana, which can be wasteful on manaless champions. It's also cheaper (by over 700 gold), meaning you can get it faster as a powerspike. BC's version of Phage is also much better, it grants you movement speed for ANY physical damage you deal, instead of just basic attacks, and it allows you to gain the +60 movement for assists rather than just for kills. Then lastly, there's the armor shred, which massively buffs the damage you deal to an enemy, especially a tanky enemy, in an extended fight. Not only does it buff the damage you deal, but it also buffs the damage your allies deal to them, which can be a massive benefit in high AD comps, or if you have an assassin or ADC who's ahead. As a minor point, if you've got an Ornn on your team, then BC can be upgraded to only give HP+AD, instead of the more spread out and generalist HP+MP+AD+AS+MS. You can also stack BC and it's upgrade to shred armor twice as fast, if you so choose.
Finally, if you really wanted to, you could buy both, since every single stat from both items stacks, just not the Rage passive (though you'd get the Black Cleaver's improved version).
Tychusfindlay9181 votes[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJqYZ24I,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-09T18:59:37.956+0000)
BC gives more health, and more AD, so for champions who don't auto attack constantly or who get large portions of their damage from abilities (Renekton, Riven, etc) those champions don't need the attack speed it gives. It also doesn't have mana, which can be wasteful on manaless champions. It's also cheaper (by over 700 gold), meaning you can get it faster as a powerspike. BC's version of Phage is also much better, it grants you movement speed for ANY physical damage you deal, instead of just basic attacks, and it allows you to gain the +60 movement for assists rather than just for kills. Then lastly, there's the armor shred, which massively buffs the damage you deal to an enemy, especially a tanky enemy, in an extended fight. Not only does it buff the damage you deal, but it also buffs the damage your allies deal to them, which can be a massive benefit in high AD comps, or if you have an assassin or ADC who's ahead. As a minor point, if you've got an Ornn on your team, then BC can be upgraded to only give HP+AD, instead of the more spread out and generalist HP+MP+AD+AS+MS. You can also stack BC and it's upgrade to shred armor twice as fast, if you so choose.
Finally, if you really wanted to, you could buy both, since every single stat from both items stacks, just not the Rage passive (though you'd get the Black Cleaver's improved version).
Stop overhyping cleaver when darius, the historical #1 prime synergizing champion doesn't even use it anymore in either solo queue OR pro play.
Cleaver died with both the nerf to its armor shred and the introduction of conquerer.
Seenan3 votesStop overhyping cleaver when darius, the historical #1 prime synergizing champion doesn't even use it anymore in either solo queue OR pro play.
Cleaver died with both the nerf to its armor shred and the introduction of conquerer.
Tf are you talking about? I'll dump on you with BC Darius lmao.
Tobykachu3 votesThat's because there really isn't any benefits. Tanks are so out of place in the solo queue meta that usually the tankiest champions in the game are just stacking health like battle mages and bruisers.
FCJAAAAGOOOO3 votesAnd on the flip side, if you aren't being a degen and running Conqueror until the day it dies (which will be soon, thank goodness), you don't want BC first because you aren't gaining a bunch of free damage to abuse with the arpen anyway.
Darius is straight-up broken with BC regardless, by the way, and always will be so long as his passive stacks BC's armor shred. Consider him Flashing and doing nothing but a Q that hits an entire team, and that's his contribution to the teamfight because his DoT physical passive (let that sink in) will also reduce everyone's armor by 24% for 10 seconds.
Deliberate Inter2 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJqYZ24I,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-09T16:37:32.946+0000)
unless my champion can't use Trinity.
Trinity gives me everything better except tank killing (which Conqueror covers)
I can kill squishes faster thanks to Sheen, I can DPS better with AS, I can split push better because Sheen works on towers, I'm still getting good stats, and so on.
Black Cleaver is cheaper and that's really it. You only buy it if you're behind. I see more assassins buying it than bruisers.
It's kind of bothersome.
Uh faster power spike and smoother power curve. 400 hp. lol what?
Sir Saltarin1 votesWell I dont have a reason to buy Trinity because MF has a terrible base AD and I have to go BlackCleaver can I complain aswell ?
Moody P13 votesIt's not like a marksman won't complain anyway
JackMcSnipeyz4 votesMoody P's latest discussion:
^ Complains about marksmen complaining
Warlord Rhinark6 votesMoody P's latest discussion:
- Complain about klepto top
- Complain about conquerer not being made to fit every juggernaut ability
- Complain about marksmen
- Complain about BC being useless
- in the same time complain about sejuani being a better lane bully than darius (lol)
^ Complains about marksmen complaining
He's right though.
JackMcSnipeyz4 votesNo, he's really not, just extreamly biased.
Tychusfindlay9181 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJqYZ24I,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2019-02-10T11:23:47.817+0000)
He's right though.
Right on most things. Sejuani being a better lane bully than darius is incredibly questionable though.
Moody P1 voteshave you tried it out? It really is a lot stronger than you would expect; her W's base damage ramps up hard by rank 3 and with a Liandry's rush (a very strong first item if you arent counter picked or losing lane, but full tank still works great) you can whittle down and then all in anyone not to mention fantastic gank assist. You play relatively passive on early levels unless you can get a full combo (passive before level 5 will be the only way you win a trade) and then you can start getting aggressive.
I play it and win quite a lot right now and the only lanes I consistently find trouble in are Poppy and Teemo.
There's also more than one Korean top laner playing her as a Trinity bruiser, make of that what you will I haven't tried the build yet.
Tychusfindlay9181 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJqYZ24I,comment-id=000300000001000000010000,timestamp=2019-02-12T16:45:23.024+0000)
have you tried it out? It really is a lot stronger than you would expect; her W's base damage ramps up hard by rank 3 and with a Liandry's rush (a very strong first item if you arent counter picked or losing lane, but full tank still works great) you can whittle down and then all in anyone not to mention fantastic gank assist. You play relatively passive on early levels unless you can get a full combo (passive before level 5 will be the only way you win a trade) and then you can start getting aggressive.
I play it and win quite a lot right now and the only lanes I consistently find trouble in are Poppy and Teemo.
There's also more than one Korean top laner playing her as a Trinity bruiser, make of that what you will I haven't tried the build yet.
My assumption is that she's better into certain matchups than darius is. But overall, I wouldn't call her a better lane bully.
For example, she probably can bully riven way easier than darius can for obvious reasons (her dash is far more reliable than decimate).
But if the enemy laner were say nasus or sion, I'd take darius any day over sejuani. His all-in capability is far superior post level 3 against many immobile matchups Seems like an apples to oranges comparison.
DunkProphet6 votesBut hes right though?
Sir Saltarin4 votesCan I complain about you complaining about adcs always complaining ?
Moody P1 votesSure, I never said you couldn't
Just seems like a dumb comparison to make when MF has the entirety of crit AND lethality at her disposal, a fighter doesn't have that choice in variety right now because TF/BC is "the" bigger choice you have to make in core items and one is just clearly superior
Sir Saltarin1 votesHonestly my comments on this chain were half joking.
And yeah, MF has the most diverse builds out of all adcs, that's a good reason to play her on almost any meta. It's a shame that new ER is bad cuz she cant rush crit.
Tychusfindlay9181 votesCleaver needs to be given back its 30% shred max. What riot can do is instead of increasing the % of each stack, increase the total stack number by 1. This allows long-fight oriented bruisers to benefit, while assassins who won't have the opportunity to stay too long to get full stacks won't be able to benefit nearly as much.
The phage kindlegem build path change from a while ago already hurts assasins a lot, so I think cleaver is close to being made decent again.
Moody P1 votestbh I think it needs to a better selfish pick. Even without factoring in the "abuse" of not fighters they still benefit from you picking it up because of the shred and that takes away power budget that should be allotted to the fighter as a carry champion.
should be armor shred imo
Ackelope1 votesthe only thing I'd be concerned with involving cleaver buffs at that point is how it's going to affect lucian, since he's been sticking cleaver as a second item into his build for a decent while now. lucian is plenty strong as-is, so some sort of specific change to provide a negative incentive for lucian/ranged champions to buy it would probably have to go along with it as well. Considering lucian is basically the only ranged champion that buys it anyway, maybe a melee-only switch wouldn't be entirely awful, or perhaps a specific nerf to the way it interacts with his kit. maybe his ult doesn't apply stacks past the first, or his 2nd auto from his passive doesn't apply stacks.
Serika Zero1 votesLet's say I play talon. W - 1 proc. R - 1 proc Q - 1 proc Automatic aa after q 1 - proc R recall triggered by Q - 1 proc Passive damage - 1 proc Second part if W - might not hit, maybe 1 proc.
Total 6-7 procs in under a second.
EyasHawk1 votesTalon OTP here. That's basically you puting your entire burst combo on cd and the total armor shred only procs for the passive. Talon isnt an aa champ, once you have blown your load you have to disengage or else you get popped. Hardely abusable. especially since the build path is so bad, you have to sit on 15 ad till you finish the full item.
Serika Zero1 votesmy point was: talon can still insta proc the full damage reduction from black cleaver even if you do as the other guy said, increase its stacks by 1. Right now it is 6 stacks for max.
And yes, BC is sometimes build for talon even right now with its nerfed stats. Why wouldn't you build it with buffed stats?
Jofeyy1 votesGet 
and build the REAL TriForce :^)
BrightWîngs1 votesThere's not normally enough tanks in one game for it to even matter if there were say 3 tanky champions on the enemy team BC would be the most efficient but since not many people playing tanks as of right now tri force is simply just better for oneshotting / catching squishes shredding a percentage of some ones 60 70 armor is pretty pointless
FioraWillCarry1 votesI buy Black Cleaver a lot more on Fiora than I do Trinity. No other item gives you a nice chunk of AD, an insane 400 HP with 20% CDR. I found it's an excellent item for when you're behind. 400 HP is nothing to scoff at. Trinity is too squishy.
