ADC bot lane 99% of the time, APC mid like 50% of the time?

Valhalla Rising··22 votes·1,949 views

I think it's messed up that Mid laners are APC roughly 50% of the time, but Bot lane has an ADC 99% of the time.

When the mid lane goes AD, it's up to top or jg to be the APC, but sometimes they just don't care and lock it or have already locked in an AD champ or a tank.

Bot lane carry could and should go a mage but I've tried to get them to do that about 20 times before I gave up because none of them want to, they just go AD.

Support is usually AP based but can not reliably carry magic damage with a supports income/build.

And even if the Top or JG go APC that removes 1 potential tank/bruiser from the comp.

The only reliable solution I can think of is changing the general mentality of Bot Lane Carry to be less mandatory Marksmen and be more open to AP Bot Lane Carry's.

So can we draw some attention to this and stop antagonizing our own strategies?

Thanks for reading.

P.s. pick order should still be used to determine who can be more liberal with the damage types, e.g. If mid is first pick and goes AD, then It's up to TOP JG or Bot Carry to be the APC, depending on who's lower on the pick order if necessary.

Double P.s. ADC and "Bot" are not the same, just like APC and "Mid" are not the same, pass this info along.

30 Comments

TehNACHO11 votes

The problem is the support.

With them sitting there, they are draining valuable experience from the primary Bot Laner. It creates an environment where if you want to maximize your team's efficiency, the primary Bot Laner better be someone who operates on a high gold to experience ratio compared to other champions in the game. Because Auto Attacks gain a lot of firepower from items more so than levels, it greeeeaaatly biases the process towards gold based ADCs.

1000angrybees1 votes

I'd rather have them share it than have an ADC be the same level as or higher than the mid laner. That sounds like more snowball. Also, where are the supports gonna go? top? mid? Do you want 4 v 4?

Not sure what the intention behind saying this is anyway. It kind of just sounds like you dont want them.

Sightless661 votes

Not sure what the intention behind saying this is anyway.

The point he's making is that putting a mage bot lane hurts them because mages are highly experience reliant. If you have them lane with a support, they are hurt more than if you have an AD carry lane with a support.

Also, where are the supports gonna go?

Bot lane, without a mage. Exactly like how we do it now.

TehNACHO1 votes

I'd rather have them share it than have an ADC be the same level as or higher than the mid laner. That sounds like more snowball.

Well I mean top lane gets that mostly right.

Also, where are the supports gonna go? top? mid? Do you want 4 v 4?

With Rift Herald's new buff, Top is a legitimate candidate since the only reason why Supports went bot in the first place was for dragon. For example you can have the support babysit the top laner until a certain point (say they hit 6), get your Jungler to gank top, 3 man the Herald, and then let the Support roam while a super charged babysat top laner stays up top.

Mid is more of a roaming role, and interestingly enough that strategy was actually pretty viable before our current popular meta was established and later supported through stuff like the support items. If Riot goes 100% on supporting the Roaming Support play style like they did with the Bot Lane support play style, that could be a legitimate option.

4v4 turns Top and Bot into nearly identical lanes, which is cool in the fighting and maybe even champ diversity sense but kinda throws a wrench in how the game currently works in the strategic sense.

My intention is to point out what looks obvious to me that other people, like Sun Rhapsody, may not understand. Don't antagonize me and maybe you'll learn something out of this too.

1000angrybees2 votes

Well, it kind of carried a "supports are unnecessary" negative tone so it sounded antagonistic in itself, just saying.

But i do understand.

TruckFump20166 votes

I've seen so many bronze ass team comps that no one even thinks twice about.

I played against a yasuo top, zed mid, J4 jungle with voli support and cat adc. And this was in ranked.

People have no ability to think rationally in league. Average player would lose battle of wits with paper bag confirmed.

MetalGearTeemu5 votes

just put Graves in the Jungle, Quinn top, Corki in mid, Bottom Lucien...

Wait... is that a support Viegar? we better completely gut his stun because its not ok for mids to go bot and become anti-LC$ big play supports.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Penns4 votes

Apart from Zed and Yasuo there are only AP mid laners with meaningful pick rates lel

Alüe10 votes

Jayce Riven Gangplank Renekton Pantheon... strangely all mid laners i've seen that may not be common but have a higher chance of being picked than me seeing a ziggs or vel'koz mid...... keep in mind this is at a high plat elo.

Penns2 votes

Looking at plat+ stats those champs never get picked... GP has the highest pick rate with 1.8% but I dont consider that "meaningful".

Very Hard Engage7 votes

Corki Ezreal Pantheon Varus Urgot

and others would like a word with you.

cuz that Karthus and Galio AP mid lane is sooooo high.

Valhalla Rising1 votes

{quoted}

Apart from Zed and Yasuo there are only AP mid laners with meaningful pick rates lel

Lol that's a slight exaggeration with some truth to it but doesn't mean shit because of how damn strong and popular those are, and Talon get's picked a lot. plus theres always some Fotm like Riven/Varus/Wukong/J4 mid going around.

SoryInAdvance4 votes

forgetting someone? Talon

Penns1 votes

I said meaningful, not Vel Koz / Trundle support- level pick rate lel.

Quepha4 votes

There simply aren't APC kits that work well in bot lane. They either don't bully well in a 2v2 or too much of their scaling depends on levels for them to be willing to give up xp in a duo lane. The closest you have are Kog and Corki.

AngelFrost003 votes

There is no pickorder any more hello it S6.

Valhalla Rising4 votes

{quoted}

There is no pickorder any more hello it S6.

So if everyone intends to go AD, they should?

you got any better ideas to prevent that?

Alüe18 votes

he's referring to the team composition. Depending on where you are placed in the selection screen, there is a pick order that occurs off team composition. If my team picks all ad and i'm the adc in the last position then you have a pure ad team, when the op is proposing that adc should go as a mage.

Valhalla Rising4 votes

{quoted}

he's referring to the team composition. Depending on where you are placed in the selection screen, there is a pick order that occurs off team composition. If my team picks all ad and i'm the adc in the last position then you have a pure ad team, when the op is proposing that adc should go as a mage.

nailed it

IcyPepper1 votes

If my team picks all ad and i'm the adc in the last position

I think OP is trying to change the current mentality that ADC=bot, because you just called "bot" ADC....

NinjaFifer3 votes

Meta is the meta for a reason. It's not like the pros one day just decide that bot was going to be an ADC and that was that. They found out that putting someone with very heavy sustained damage in the bot lane, near the dragon, provides the best control of that objective. Mid lane, then, often plays a bursty character that can roam bot and get a gank usually leading to a dragon. Everything else pretty much revolves around the balance of the month, and the rest of the "lanes" fill out the comp as needed.

Basically, the meta as it stands focuses around dragon control, with gank potential from mid lane setting up the powerful sustained damage from bot lane for a dragon attempt.

As Riot becomes more focused on creating objectives, I am looking forward to seeing the meta shift around. Hell, why don't you start it? Go grab two friends and run a lane swap. Take your duo top and send a safe "top laner" bot, and get an early herald so you can let one guy stomp around on his own while you push other objectives. Get creative!

EMeta1 votes

This. Teams without a marksman adc generally do poorly taking turrets, sieging, and putting out damage in late-game teamfights. You certainly can go for a kill-lane bot instead, but if you don't get way ahead early, you'll probably lose. As others have said, marksmen generally do better in duo lanes than other classes, since their damage scales better with peel, and gold is more important than xp.

Furthermore, the OP misses the point of the meta. It's not just to get someone to play certain champs or whatnot. Primarily, the meta functions as a kind of template that strangers use to figure out how to work together. You may have lots of great ideas for different team comps, but you have four other teammates you need to work with. If the rest of the team is positioning itself to have a marksman bot and you do something completely different without consulting them, how do they know how to play. How come you get to decide the different team comp for your whole team? If I see a Nasus top with TP, I expect him to use it to get back to lane. If I see a Maokai there, I expect him to use it to gank. There are dozens of these little expectations that are built into the meta, far more than you could ever try to explain to your team in champ select + the first minute of the game. But we still gotta work with a bunch of strangers, so we have the meta framework to let us do that.

If you want to kill the meta, that's great. But discuss it with your team and get them on board. Solwolf goes to a lot of effort to do this, and generally it works out for his team.


But hey, armor pen is out of this world right now. 45% off everything they build for the adc item, and BC for most ad bruisers. A bunch of marksmen do a lot--if not mostly magic damage (Corki, Kog) or even true (Vayne). If the rest of your team picks ad, of course you should consider one of these marksmen.

L0ve Is Blue2 votes

ADCs are just supperior in every way to mages now, even more with those preaseason changes.

Sustain:

Mages don't have that lol ADCs: only need item 3072 item 3508 and mana/health regen will never be a problem again!

Damage:

Mages can deal like 700 damage per ability (probably less lol) then have to wait on cooldown. ADCs: more than 1000K. More than once a second.

Yeaaah well at least cc is still a mage thing right?

Caitlyn Kalista Vayne Varus Ashe

Well... At least they still need mages for magic damage right? Or else the enemy just goes full armor and... oh wait

Corki Ezreal Vayne KogMaw

Well uhm... Mages can burst people!

Lucian Tristana Corki

Well... Why should I play a mage again? OH Mages have utility and they can save their allies and

Kindred Kalista Sivir

OK I'm done

Joman7671 votes

support/jg carries mid game apc carries mid game adc carries late game

tanks can help but generally not fully carry any one part of the game

Wofye1 votes

I've been testing Sona apc bot lane with a support. It works really well actually. I'd like to try it when an ADC is somewhere else (Like in the JG , Top or Mid).

I can definitely see other APCs going bot if we have an ADC elsewhere, why not?

Maple Crusader1 votes

I've went APC bot with a support before. Works okay, it's just a bit more difficult because the enemy team will likely have an ADC who does sustained DPS with their autos.

StoryDuck1 votes

If you can find me a dedicated mid laner ADC (or jungler) I'd gladly support a mage bot. The problem is that there needs to be an ADC on the team for that late game super damage. Crit + Armor Pen + 300 AD = dead champions. you would give up early game pressure that midlaners can apply with roaming but you could really mess up the bot lane in early game too as CC + mage burst = dead champions as well.

Tentacle Love1 votes

Riot tried giving us a viable AP alternative for the bottom lane carry in Mordekaiser and the entire playerbase revolted.

Which is ironic, because...

Riot. <-- [zombie-brand-mindblown]

I mean, really.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

I'm still a Morde ADC main; Right now, he's painful to play in soloque, but is still VERY strong with a support who knows how to play with him.

Narvuntien1 votes

In the past, many years ago. Veigar bot lane was a thing. he is the only APC i'd send bot.

Most mages are very reliant on their ultimate and the mid season patch seems to have made that worse. putting them bot lanes means it takes longer from them to get to 6 and have a big impact on the game.

Playing something like Corki or KogMaw or Ezreal as adc when your team is all ad is a good option.

there are some high damage dealing supports like Bard ,Morgana, Karma, etc. that can output a lot of magic damage in teamfights.

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