"You're an assassin, you don't build Maw wtf"

USG Failsawce·Jun 28, 2018·10 votes·5,371 views

Teammate told me this the other day I almost smashed my face through my own monitor...

Why would a pyke support ever build a maw vs a double AP bot lane with AP jungle? Funny part was our lane was 6-2 (me 4-1) when he said it and his (mid) was.. 1-5.

The worst part about this is, people really do have this mindset in silver elo, and it's REALLY concerning. "Don't ever build a defensive/damage-defense item vs champs that can 1 shot you and snowball, don't ever build for the lane, don't ever get merc scim, or tanky when behind, etc etc... just keep spamming damage, the same exact items and build order as ever"

Never seen a Zed or Talon build hexdrinker vs an ap burst mid too right?

It's even worse when the adc refuses to build hexdrinker vs say brand and vel'koz, and then hyper feeds their asses off and the response is "it's only cus I don't have enough damage!!"

50 Comments

HethaleanJun 28, 20183 votes

Why would someone on the internet with a different opinion than you make you so frustrated that you almost smashed your face through your own monitor?

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Why would someone on the internet with a different opinion than you make you so frustrated that you almost smashed your face through your own monitor?

guess you've never heard of figures of speech where ever you're from buddy, i didn't actually even come close to hitting my monitor with my face... or get frustrated.

did i really just need to explain that to you?

HethaleanJun 28, 20182 votes

Well, it is a figure of speech, and maybe a hyperbolic explanation of the situation. However, typically you model your genuine reactions reactions (hyperbolic as it may be). While you were being hyperbolic, I was also being over the top with actually accepting it. The tldr; is why would a differing opinion on the internet about how to play a game even phase you.. especially negatively. Why would you care?

Did i really just need to explain that to you?

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20182 votes

The irony of this response is actually beyond words on so many levels. you're clearly a troll. but ill take the bait once again and answer you directly.

because plain and simply, i have to play with them. it's not the difference of "opinion" - the fact alone that it's an opinion proves my point and is precisely why you're silver 4 - but rather the fact that literally hundreds of players with this same mindset, in games where the lane and/or match would have been easily one with a simple change of build and nothing else, blows my mind.

No sorry, not to the point where my mind is actually blown. nor am i losing sleep over it or flipping out in the match, or basing my reactions on anything genuine. it's an observation

HethaleanJun 28, 20181 votes

I'm not trolling you. I'm simply asking why you are even reacting to someone on the internet with a different opinion. You can ad hominem me all you want (saying I'm a troll / that I'm silver 4), but it's a logical fallacy for a reason and is not a good argument.

I just don't play ranked much. I don't know what rank to which I can climb, but I don't have the time to spend climbing sometimes and prefer normal. Maybe I should play ranked more... Who knows? I don't attain rank to impress others, and my rank doesn't necessarily impress or depress me. Thus my value of it is rather low.

It is an opinion. It's a game and how you play it... especially the stuff they said in your example. If it were fact, there would be one correct answer, and you could either be wrong or right. People who are wrong about facts typically it is their opinion (aka how they feel about something). Now opinions can be in line with facts btw. Now, low elo can definitely be painted as wrong in their build choices. I'm assuming that was sort of the hint of what you were getting at with stating my low ELO rank. That being that I don't know builds very well, and would probably not know how to build. That doesn't change that build choices are opinions. Just take a look at how all of a sudden a sleeper pick happens then all of a sudden it is meta. Meta is just a collective opinion in a game like LoL. Banner of Command was a good example. It was in it's form forever, but people's opinions on it changed and all of a sudden it's built all the time.

The differences between 'wrong/correct' and 'your opinion / their opinion' is negligible since it's still a matter of what you are stating vs what they are stating. It's a matter of you agree with your sentiments, and you disagree with theirs. Now you may not have stated them here in the post, but you hold them internally as you usually compare what you think vs what they say to know if you agree with it / are convinced.

It does seem like you're trying to pass it off as something minor, but I am assuming that is an attempt to be misleading for a couple of reasons. One of those reasons being the way in which you phrased the situation, and secondly, that you took the time and effort to come to the boards and wrote about it instead of just moving on with your games.

My motivation here was simple. I saw someone getting upset over disagreeing with someone in the web, and asked them about it when it is my opinion that they shouldn't get upset. Then to throw your sass right back at you. shrug

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20181 votes

I cannot... even believe... the level of irony in this post, on so very many levels... once again. And above all the fact that you still don't get that I was saying "smash my face through my monitor" for literally no other reason, than to be funny.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

At the very least, ask yourself bud, what was the point in this post you just made, and all of your posts in this thread? Stop being defensive about my replies and just give it a rest.

HethaleanJun 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

My motivation here was simple. I saw someone getting upset over disagreeing with someone in the web, and asked them about it when it is my opinion that they shouldn't get upset. Then to throw your sass right back at you. shrug

For one, I'm not really being defensive. You can go on and on about all of the irony, but if you want to constantly accuse those of 'irony', you're accusing someone of trying to have a discussion / help as being defensive and trolling. That and if you can't get how my latest response had very little to do with my original post. Not sure how to help you. Especially since my latest response moved on from your attempts at humor.

Then again, from the sounds of it, you didn't read all of it anyway (given that you asked me to ask myself what my point was... when I very much pointed it out at the end), so I can't really expect much. Then there's a bonus reason there for the last one. A discussion about the way you're responding to people and the faulty reasoning therein. If you want to wonder why I responded to your first comment, it had nothing to do with your post, but just a further elaboration on why I even commented to begin this conversation.

SwiftKitten88Jun 28, 20183 votes

{quoted}

The worst part about this is, people really do have this mindset in silver elo, and it's REALLY concerning. "Don't ever build a defensive/damage-defense item vs champs that can 1 shot you and snowball, don't ever build for the lane, don't ever get merc scim, or tanky when behind, etc etc... just keep spamming damage, the same exact items and build order as ever"

the people who HAVE this mindset are NOT silver.. they just were put in silver becuase riots system puts complete noobs in silver after they go 4/10 in promos. and have no concept on how to play.. and they haven't been demoted yet.

meanwhile they made it hard for the actaul players who want to climb nieght impossible to do so becuase riot keeps flooding silvers with players who have just started and play like they're bronze 4.. and belive me I have BEEN in bronze 4.. and i THAT is how bronze 4 people are.

no new player unless they are a smurf.. under ANY circumstance.. belongs in silver their first season playing..

and until riot fixes this.. matches in silver will continue to be decided before and during champ select and well before anyone enters the rift.

OtterlyLostJun 28, 20182 votes

To be fair, an ADC cant just buy a hexdrinker early on; they would do no damage and it would put off their relevant power spikes even more. I agree assassins should and can get a hexdrinker though.

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20182 votes

they absolutely can. i do it all the time when i play adc vs double ap as someone who plays adc the least... and magically.. i somehow carry the game with 15-20+ kills almost every single time.

when you're against champs that you can't trade with and can one shot you once they hit 6 (and some before it), is it better to get said power spikes that you can't even use because you're already dead, or died enough to snowball the enemy champion into being unbeatable by that point anyway? or would it be better to get a semi-defensive item and farm up as best as you can to survive the kill lane...

how is this actually not general logic

OtterlyLostJun 28, 20182 votes

You can get it but you're useless for even longer. I've player ADC for several seasons at this point and anytime I put off my build to get a defensive item, my damage and dps takes a nose dive. ADCs are the one class that cant build defensively out of the gate and are squishy enough that hexdrinker is going to do next to nothing.

Kats PajamasJun 28, 20182 votes

The short answer is you're both wrong. Null Magic Mantle is among one of the most efficient item rushes in the game, it provides 25 Magic resist for 450 gold. A typical adc starts the game with 30 Magic Resist, and they gain 9 Magic resist by the time they level to 18 for a value just under 40. If you have played URF, the Null Mantle is effectively giving you the equivalent of level 50 Magic Armor, at level 1, if you buy it as your first item. The cheapest Mpen is Sorcs at a cost of 1100 for 18, so for 450 you negate an item most AP mages and Assassins use, that cost them 1100, but then you also gain 7 Resist(150g) on top of that for free, so you effectively counter their whole item for 300g, putting them 800 gold behind you.

The problem is, why do you need to upgrade something that is already god-tier item? Upgrading it is a waste of gold for the reasons you put above. If you cannot farm with a 450 mantle pick up, that's not so great on your part, but purchasing a full Maw would be stupid.

Null Mantle also sells for 315, so for the price of under 3~ potions, you can have level 50 Magic resist all game and never even consider upgrading it.

People bitch all the time about 'counterplay' to Assassins, but I've yet to fight one that can even lane past someone building armor.

AzadetheJun 28, 20182 votes

You get it for the shield.

Adc vs a Xerath or Velkoz or Ziggs metes out too much AP damage for any adc to sustain and in a linear lane, it's really hard to dodge them all on the spamlord mages with semiglobal range.

Vs short range mages it's not as much of a problem. Then you could just get the Null Magic Mantle.

Kats PajamasJun 28, 20181 votes

It's true mantle rush is weaker against mages in general than Assassins because of Burst vs DPS, but Mage abilities are able to be dodged generally. Pros buy MR verses things they cannot dodge, if you're just eating mage combos in lane you need to git gud or switch lanes.

It still does not change the math though that for less gold you can completely negate their pen. Magic Pen is a volatile stat that falls off just fighting .5MR level growth alone, it's legitimately never stupid to buy MR vs sorcs or an orb, Flat Pen is often a crutch all AP characters use to be able to deal their 'high damage' to squish for cheap, when in reality squish just don't block anything. Most Mages don't rush orb, they prefer Mana items like Ludens, so they are already going to have worse Sorcs optimization than Assassins will because pen is only good early anyways.

You also cannot start the game with a Maw, but you can extremely early get a Mantle, even first item. The Mantle at most points of the game is reducing damage by 10%, this overtime outvalues the shield easily, and it costs far less money to do this. Costing far less money is the main reason it's best. When you upgrade most items, you lose all kinds of money into things you don't want or need, Katarina for example could give a shit about the Cooldown Zhoyna provides, it just makes it 350 gold more expensive for nothing, and she would prefer a cheaper zhoyna with no cooldown instead. The same thing applies with Maw. Does Caitlyn really need 10% CDR and 10% spellvamp? No, but she will pay for that anyway, if she compromises trying to get the shield. That is the reason Mantle rush is just flat out superior. You are countering what you don't like, buying nothing extra, and paying the least possible gold to do so.

The flat shield is literally a pointless damage reduction compared to the reduction gained overtime by resistance. By level 6, the mantle will have negated more than 350, before you could even afford a maw, and proc your first shield.

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20181 votes

Wait.. nobody said anything about rushing a maw lol. I rushed a Maw on my SUPPORT (after targon's), but my suggestion for adcs was to rush hexdrinker and then move on from there...

Kats PajamasJun 28, 20181 votes

Hex drinker costs 1300 gold, and the flat shield is stupidly small, and based on level(meaning better to buy lategame).

You pay 850 more gold for 10 additional MR. With 1300 gold, you could have just buy 3 mantle and have +75MR instead.

You would be better off buying 2 Mantle, or a Negatron, and then continuing actual damage items that spike. The problem is spending 1300 gold to counter someone is too much time and effort you should be spending trying to snowball.

If you start Dorans blade, I'd never recommend hex drinker. You at the very least should start longsword, the point is to get that shit out of the way. 1300 gold is 92 caster minions of farm. That's too much to invest in a counter item. If you're 5/0? Sure build a hexdrinker then, whatever. 2 Mantles would result in 50 MR vs 35, or a Negatron would be 40, and you would get to use your swords on actual good items instead, and yet again, it costs way less to do this.

Just get a mantle. You lose 135 gold selling it. You lose 600 gold selling Hex drinker. It's 6x dumber to upgrade it, come lategame when it's time to sell it.

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20182 votes

this is so absolutely beyond backwards and gold inefficient i cant even believe my eyes right now.

first of all hexdrinker isn't 850 more gold JUST for 10 MR, it's for 20 AD, 10 MR, AND a shield that is literally almost the entire reason why you buy it, alone. Even by your own logic that is insanely gold efficient. You're essentially getting AD, MR, and HP all at once, and it's the combination of which in your first item, that allows you to now farm your lane. The entire idea was to buy it to save you from burst, as well as being poked out of lane.

And no one said you HAD to start dorans blade... starting longsword + 3, and then rushing hexdrinker would probably be the best option. why do you think mid laners do exactly that vs the exact same champions they build it against? that's the point here.

And why in gods fucking name would an adc ever build 2 mantles or a negatron and THEN get AD, rather than building an AD/MR item... are you actually trolling me right now or what?? then they sell one mantle and a negatron and somehow THATS more gold efficient and lane efficient?? WHAT lol

wait, you're saying to sell the hexdrinker too??? WTF?!! you can build either merc scim or hexdrinker on so many ADs vs AP heavy/burst comps... why in the actual fuck would you sell it and not build the maw later vs 3-4 ap??... would a zed or talon or any ad top laner vs lots of AP do the same thing?? champs that are already less squishy than adcs.. lol

so many adcs in pro play (you can confirm on probuilds or any website of plat+ play) are building hexdrinker and maw right now its not even funny. because it's needed, especially with the nerfed crit items. when i said i didn't mean for them to upgrade to maw, i meant not immediately, as in, hexdrinker -> other items -> maw late game.

i really cant even believe my eyes...

Kats PajamasJun 28, 20182 votes

The hexdrinker is 2% more effecient than just buying plain items, you're completely wrong to consider this "insanely efficient" when you don't even want to finish the buildpath fully. It literally puts you behind just finishing the hexdrinker verses anyone completing a real item.

You can save your flames, I don't care how bad or wrong you are about this. The point is the null mantle does 80% of the job, so it's pointless to upgrade it past then and delay your damage spikes even longer.

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20181 votes

hexdrinker is literally one of if not the single most sat on item in this entire game... people buy it and sit on it all. the. fucking. time. and they finish it later, which is... once again... what i said. not sure why this part is so difficult for you.

null magic mantle alone isn't enough to compete with the burst of champions that would normally go mid, but now are not only bot lane.. but also x2 of said burst or artillery champs.

the fact that you can't understand why a bot laner would want to build an item that's normally built mid as a counter against the exact same damn champions, that are now being played bot, then we're done here.

Kats PajamasJun 28, 20181 votes

They sit on it, because it sucks to continue to purchase Magic Resist at the phase of the game Damage is best. The same reason they are sitting on it, is the reason it's a bad item. You LITERALLY gain 0 damage upgrading it. And the extra defense you gain is stupid compared to the first Null Mantle's reduction.

It's 102% efficient- literally garbage. The 2% efficiency you gain from upgrading it is nothing and does nothing for you but waste gold. Literally any other upgrade path you could have taken with the sword is better simply for not wasting time.

The total AD also does not rise from two longswords, to the hex drinker, the 2% efficiency you gain isn't even based on damage, you're paying out of your ass for magic resist and a shield and you gain literally 0 damage.(The total is 2% of 20 damage, this means you gain .4 total damage in the upgrade, the shit doesn't even round up to 1 point of gained damage until you get infernal drake. ITS SHIT. BF Sword BY ITSELF gives you 7.5 free damage, and IS THE EXACT SAME PRICE)

Null Magic Mantle for 450 gold is 100% effective, and you can sit on this too, it makes no difference sitting on Null Mantle verses a 102% efficient hex drinker, literally the only single case upgrading Hexdrinker would be appropriate would be to combine 2 items for inventory space, something that literally should not be a problem at the start of the game.

Explain to me how my statement of sitting on a 100% 450g item is worse than sitting on a 1300 102% item, and how you didn't actually waste 850 gold rushing garbage stats you don't need when 25 magic resist obliterates the mages hope of doing damage with the first item. The fact you even think hexdrinker is that much better than what I am suggesting proves you're incredibly boosted. They are extremely comparable strategies and you sit here and talk out your ass about how you know it all.

Kats PajamasJun 28, 20181 votes

"null magic mantle alone isn't enough to compete with the burst of champions that would normally go mid"

Nope, you're wrong. 1000% wrong. Even if it wasn't enough, and you wanted a Hexdrinker, the last thing you would do is rush it. You would sit on the Mantle first, the same way you sit on Hex Drinker. Duh. The Mantle scales, the Hex Drinker PER LEVEL scales with shield, the entire build path scales, and the upgrade sucks, you sit on every other step, you never rush it. Ever. Ever. Negatron rush would be a better option 8/10 times, because you can 'sit on it' until you blow up the nexus, and if you sell it for something else, you lose basically nothing.

Your hexdrinker is garbage to lategame mage voidstaffs. Upgrade the hexdrinker? Why not? Hmmmm Voidstaff? Negatron is barely reasonable at that point, but your shit doesn't even exist. As a Katarina main, my favorite people to fight are ones that rush hexdrinker, because then I immediately build early game voidstaff and collect their body for the rest of the game for poor early game itemization of late game items first. I lose pretty much nothing rushing voidstaff into Maw. If they bought a mantle, for 450, it screws me because they invested nothing, that I now basically need a voidstaff to counter, but I cannot afford to buy that as early against so little, and so it forces me to wait. It also changes my sorcs path to 'uncomfortable' mode. Pretty much everything about early MR screws all mages and assassins early game that are AP. For countless seasons the three 'best' rune sets were All MR, or Scaling MR blues or Flat MR blues with (whatever the hell else you want) on almost every champion. Why?

"we're done here."

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20181 votes

because it fucking sucks to continue to purchase Magic Resist at the phase of the game Damage is best.

it's a bad item

lol yep we're done here, i stopped reading after that.

you lost this argument the immediate second you said maw was a bad item.

Kats PajamasJun 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

lol yep we're done here, i stopped reading after that.

you lost this argument the immediate second you said maw was a bad item.

It's not a bad item, I said if you go 5/0 get one. It's a bad buildpath for a competitive situation. If you just get it first item without any sort of lead, you are throwing. The fact you outplayed some dude in whatever-elo with it one time isn't evidence it's good to rush hexdrinker. It's good to rush a mantle and you just cannot tell the spikes apart.

SaezioJun 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It's not a bad item, I said if you go 5/0 get one. It's a bad buildpath for a competitive situation. If you just get it first item without any sort of lead, you are throwing. The fact you outplayed some dude in whatever-elo with it one time isn't evidence it's good to rush hexdrinker. It's good to rush a mantle and you just cannot tell the spikes apart.

Mate, this guy doesn't get it. Some souls are not to be helped, they are guided astray by the fancy purple glowing shields and forever lost. I guess mantle+pickaxe just looks ugly to some people.

SaezioJun 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

this is so absolutely beyond backwards and gold inefficient i cant even believe my eyes right now.

first of all hexdrinker isn't 850 more gold JUST for 10 MR, it's for 20 AD, 10 MR, AND a shield that is literally almost the entire reason why you buy it, alone. Even by your own logic that is insanely gold efficient. You're essentially getting AD, MR, and HP all at once, and it's the combination of which in your first item, that allows you to now farm your lane. The entire idea was to buy it to save you from burst, as well as being poked out of lane.

And no one said you HAD to start dorans blade... starting longsword + 3, and then rushing hexdrinker would probably be the best option. why do you think mid laners do exactly that vs the exact same champions they build it against? that's the point here.

And why in gods fucking name would an adc ever build 2 mantles or a negatron and THEN get AD, rather than building an AD/MR item... are you actually trolling me right now or what?? then they sell one mantle and a negatron and somehow THATS more gold efficient and lane efficient?? WHAT lol

wait, you're saying to sell the hexdrinker too??? WTF?!! you can build either merc scim or hexdrinker on so many ADs vs AP heavy/burst comps... why in the actual fuck would you sell it and not build the maw later vs 3-4 ap??... would a zed or talon or any ad top laner vs lots of AP do the same thing?? champs that are already less squishy than adcs.. lol

so many adcs in pro play (you can confirm on probuilds or any website of plat+ play) are building hexdrinker and maw right now its not even funny. because it's needed, especially with the nerfed crit items. when i said i didn't mean for them to upgrade to maw, i meant not immediately, as in, hexdrinker -> other items -> maw late game.

i really cant even believe my eyes...

Show me 1 proplay game where someone finished hexdrinker before getting atleast 1,5-2 other full items. Kalista doesn't count and neither do caster adcs like lucian. oh and adcs in other lanes don't count either. It is about what an adc needs to do in the game. which is way different than an assassin or a quinn top. If you don't get why assassins are better with a 0 attspeed 0 crit item than adcs then i'm out.

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20181 votes

"show me an example of this, but none of the champs that are considered adcs are actually adcs, according to me, so those don't count"

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

"then i'm out"

do us all a favor.

Kats PajamasJun 28, 20181 votes

The same reason Graves doesn't count. He's not an adc. ADC builds up auto damage and punishes with positioning, graves dashes in and combos you. Marksman is not what adc stands for.

AzadetheJun 29, 20181 votes

Maw also gives 10% life steal, and the spell vamp would apply on Cait's E and Q..... so it's not entirely useless. The 10% CDR is VERY useful.

Try a 40% CDR adc vs a 0% CDR adc and you'll find several are actually MUCH stronger.

Kats PajamasJun 29, 20181 votes

You are correct, the problem is paying for stats you don't need.

The idea of this game is, if you need magic resist, you get magic resist. You don't get magic resist, 20 ad, and 10cdr. Marksmen Class have some of the most broken base stats, often considered 'squishes' when having more armor than a huge chunk of mid laners and supports at base. They also have super high mana regen, their cooldowns are just naturally low, they have high mobility, damage, range, movementspeed, for the most part, they ONLY lack magic resistance.

There are many circumstances of noobtraps in the items. This is just another example.

I also play Ashe, and Maw is pretty crappy on Ashe. Cait is very well rounded between "AD caster" and "ADC". But Ashe doesn't even need to CS well to do her job correctly and so she's perfect for a non-adc main because she is so basic. Cooldown and Spellvamp will do nothing really for Ashe, the most fundamental example of an ADC. Graves on the other hand, I think Maw is a core item. Because he is not an ADC. So while Cait is a great ADC, her synergy with Maw is still slanted towards being an AD caster.

10% might not seem 'entirely useless' but when comparing it to Taste of Blood or an actual champion that uses spellvamp, like Cassiopia or Katarina, then comparing 10% to how much they prefer for it to be effective (15%-30%) there just become less reasons to build it. The Gunblade itself is supposed to be attractive because the activation of it procs spellvamp again, if you don't need spell vamp that much, you don't need spellvamp really at all. ADC is supposed to heal with lifesteal, but AD caster has more room to argue spellvamp, but because their class is so auto based, lifesteal is just normally better.

Getting Maw on Jinx so your traps and your E heal you, is spreading yourself too thin.

AzadetheJun 29, 20181 votes

I get Maw on Jinx because champs like Xerath more or less wither to it when you take into account Jinx's Q range. Also increases the frequency of R, which I can nail 7 out of 10 times from across the map. The life steal is just a bonus once a mage actually gets you low. Can turn around those last second skirmishes.

I mentioned I've 10/0/8'd this. I did it by basically being the team's tank.

I went Grasp + Maw + item 3071 and just soaked all the damage both my lane and their jungler were giving. And when I was low, I would just back up. I took over 19k damage that game while my team's average damage taken was only like 10k, and they were more deaths than me.

I believe the lane itself was Draven Bard , and since I had Grasp I could heal more than if I was FF, and more than Draven could heal. Once I had BC, I could just dismantle them without ganks etc, because they couldn't run and I was shredding any armor they had.

I know it's nontraditional, and it's definitely harder to CS with. But I generally know how to last hit etc and get good farm.

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20181 votes

I agree with you to an extent. the original point I was making was that defenses are worth buying based on the situation, rather than just spamming the same exact build and build order as always and getting shit on by kill lanes...

but hexdrinker can absolutely be worthwhile to upgrade to, and in most cases you're going to eventually even if not right away, or even build a qss/merc scim... which has been a core late game item (or mid game item vs certain champs) for a long time now, rather than selling the mantle.

the bubble can save you from one shots far better than a null mantle can, AD with easier build path than straight BF sword, can help you farm appropriately (especially under turret), and overall extra survivability helps you survive the lane better as a whole - which is the true aim in dealing with kill lanes, a much different beast entirely from normal lanes. the point is that if you survive it without snowballing the enemy, then they generally tend to fall off - due to lack of gold needed for most of said champions to remain viable in their more demanding builds, as well as less substaintial support effectiveness at mid-late game, among other things.

and lets face it, almost every single lane right now in this "meta" is a kill lane.

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20181 votes

you wanna know what's useless? when you go 0-6 vs the kill lane by the 10 minute mark, and whatever "power spike" you've gotten by that point, the enemy's is 3x greater, and now you cannot do a single thing vs them no matter how you built.

what good is hitting your spikes if you so behind you can't even use them. if you can't even survive the lane and give up turret at 7 minutes? even if you didn't die and you sat under turret, you're poked out of lane underneath it and they get first turret easy. that's really good to get you ahead right?

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20181 votes

let me put it into perspective for you... by the time you have the gold to get your BF sword, you may have died once or twice already, but you're also sitting at 120-130 AD or so, with said BF (maybe higher depending on how far you're set back in farm/deaths). You would only lose 20 AD from that total 130, which is only a 15% drop. And that isn't including base damage on abilities, which would make your overall output drop even lower than that.

What you gain from that though, is a laning safety, a bubble shield that is equal to a reasonable amount of hp, 35 MR which is insanely cost effective and directly effective vs BOTH enemy players, and a short duration of lifesteal/vamp. All of which can save you from being 1 shot if you make a mistake, or being poked out of lane and losing more farm or turret. Not to mention the fact that it's build path is easier so you actually get more out of it earlier.

this is different from say a normal bot lane, adc and support whether its an ap support or tanky support, where you CAN build normally and survive the lane/trade normally, etc. in those cases it's (most of the time) more effective to build normally, because it's not a kill lane that's literally designed to shut you down at level 3.

Why do you think that AD champs often build hexdrinker first mid? why is bot lane any different when you're against the exact same type of burst champs. hexdrinker offers these mid laners no benefits other than survivability vs burst... they have to delay their own powerspikes to get it. it's the exact same concept, and practiced a lot more in high elo.

the age old saying in video games since long before league is "whats the point in dealing lots damage if you're dead before you can deal it". gotta spam that crit that was just recently gutted though, ASAP, amirite

SaezioJun 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

they absolutely can. i do it all the time when i play adc vs double ap as someone who plays adc the least... and magically.. i somehow carry the game with 15-20+ kills almost every single time.

when you're against champs that you can't trade with and can one shot you once they hit 6 (and some before it), is it better to get said power spikes that you can't even use because you're already dead, or died enough to snowball the enemy champion into being unbeatable by that point anyway? or would it be better to get a semi-defensive item and farm up as best as you can to survive the kill lane...

how is this actually not general logic

Well it might work in lower elos. when you get past plat 5 or even gold 1-2 you simply can't build Hexdrinker on an adc before you finish your 2 first items because you might as well be afk with the amounts of damage you are not dealing and with how fast games are ending. Better to get a BF and tell your JG to camp bot till you are relevant again. The enemy will just get all the towers before you get any semblance of a powerspike. It is the reason none ever builds that in all the streamer/lcs games you can watch.

AzadetheJun 28, 20181 votes

Yes they can, and should in many cases. I've gone 10/0/8 on Jinx building Hexdrinker.

1RiceBowl1xJun 28, 20182 votes

"You're an assassin, wtf defend the nexus from nasus. just one shot him ez"

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20181 votes

this made me lol a bit irl, not gonna lie

cus that feeling when top lane has actually said something to this effect... more than once.

AzadetheJun 28, 20182 votes

He wasn't trying to say your build was wrong. He was projecting in a fit (probably in response to criticism) with the best fit argument (in his mind) why YOU aren't carrying as much as you SHOULD be (again in his mind)

Silver: Everyone's perfect players. Cannot accept blame for poor decision making like pushing out mid. So blame everyone else.

Don't take it personally.

P.S. Pros are building item 3110 item 3065 Pyke as support.

zZ KanKuro ZzJun 28, 20182 votes

"people really do have this mindset in silver elo"

if it was just in silver, i already saw plat and dia players saying that i am trolling when i tell them to build item 3156 or item 3139 (he was an adc against a full ap comp that had a malzahar, akali, fizz maokai and some adc that was the only ad) because and I quote "that things are tank items I am an adc i need damage" then they go 0/10 spamming "useless team they dont protect me" in all chat (fun fact in this particular case this adc was the one who did less damage in the intire game despite going "full damage", I wonder why).

LacerationJun 28, 20182 votes

The thing about MAW is if you are snowballing, raw damage is better because you already have level advantage to make you tankier. When you are behind getting early maw removes any chances you will get to recover without help from teammates, however it does make you hard to burst. There's also matchups where even if you fall behind getting hexdrinker doesn't help at all. Champions who either do so much the mr and shield wont matter, like fizz. Or champions that can easily proc the shield and wait for their next rotation of spells, like LB. Getting hex in those matchups is usually pointless with afew exceptions so it's better to just sit on a nullmagic.

That's just my opinion on it though, the recent buffs to maw have made it a lot better but it makes more sense to me to just sit on a nullmagic, get my dusk+ghost core, then get a cleaver.

Radiant WukongJun 28, 20181 votes

In their defense, the current damage state of the game will still get you 100-0 in 3 seconds when building defensively from behind with the exception of item 3157 item 3812 item 3156 item 3053

BestPudgeNAJun 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radiant Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZH9i6F1G,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-06-28T14:50:06.660+0000)

In their defense, the current damage state of the game will still get you 100-0 in 3 seconds when building defensively from behind with the exception of

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Critmaster GarenJun 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

a maw vs a double AP bot lane with AP jungle?

you just answered your own question.

the guy wasnt wrong imo. if you want to secure your lead and make it less likely to feed like 600 shutdown gold to the enemy, then maw aint a bad idea. especially on an assassin. pyke support or not support doesnt matter, since hes still going to be a squishy assassin, no matter what he builds.

maw would not only provide him with more damage to snowball, but also give him effective hp through its shield passive, that he cant gain otherwise.

i wouldnt say that its a reason to flip his shit, that you didnt build it, but its still not a bad idea given the situation you described.

USG FailsawceJun 28, 20181 votes

uhhh are people really misreading my post this bad?

lol, cus this is like the 4th time already on this subject... maybe it's just THAT ingrained into people to think this completely ass backwards, and not build intelligently, but IM the one who DID build it and went 4-1 vs said double ap/ap jg, AS A RESULT, of it lol

the mid laner was the one questioning why the fuck i would bother ever building a maw on "an assassin support"

Kats PajamasJun 28, 20181 votes

Pyke is literally the tankiest Assassin in the game. His 'secondary' role is 'tank'.

He has 7th highest base HP(600 vs 625) 4th highest HP/level(100 vs 112) 2nd highest base Armor(45 vs 47) 1st highest Armor per level(5) 3rd highest base MR(32) 1st highest MR growth(2 per level) 4th highest base hp at level 18.

He cannot build additional HP, but this hardly phases him, or anyone else in League of Legends, because most champions are HP heavy for effective health, not armor, so it never hurts to build armor on him. With 2300 base level 18 hp, this leaves room for almost 100 additional armor, and 160 Magic resist before he's over-capping his effective hp. Couple this with the fact he gets free damage on the HP from the tank items, and he is essentially dishing out damage, while having tank stats, and insanely high mobility. He has the #4 highest hp, not building hp isn't a problem, his base stats are literally tankier than Galio and Alistar. His least tanky stat is HP/5, and he has that ridiculous passive to massively compensate for it and building full damage improves it.

Radiant WukongJun 29, 20181 votes

What about level 18? I'm too lazy to look.

Kats PajamasJun 29, 20182 votes

He's first highest in MR growth, Armor growth, and Level 18 MR, and base Armor, and level 18 armor. His Base MR is really only second to Talon, so it's in a pretty large tie for '1st'. So he's literally 'first' in all armor stats. Other than Talon, who has more base MR, Pyke still passes Talons total MR at level 18(1st).

In HP, he is 7th, but his growth is fourth best, bringing him to the 4th highest hp at level 18. Galio, who is 1st, has 166 more hp than Pyke, but looking at Pykes armor and magic resistance verses that 166 hp, it's pretty clear Pyke is not only the tankiest Assassin, but the single tankiest character in the game, from a base stats perspective.

Radiant WukongJun 29, 20181 votes

First, thanks. Second... DAMN!

I knew assassins in general have high base resistances to compensate for their lack of itemization defenses but damn. I guess it has to be that way since he can't opt into bonus hp.

taleofsonataJun 28, 20181 votes

Why don't you build defensively against 2 ap? Hexdrinker is a hella good item, I mean why would you go full offensive build if the Brand is already outplaying you?

Kats PajamasJun 29, 20181 votes

the effectiveness of building defense is a luxury you can normally only afford from ahead. If you do it too early, you can choke out your own kill potential through itemization, and not enemy skill level. If you are losing lane, building defense is alright because you are freezing a lane you lost, but if you start freezing the lane first, you could have frozen a lane you would have just won.