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What should Kayle be when reworked?

PhantomGG··4 votes·2,542 views

So thematically Kayle has a pretty good identity that has much room to grow in both lore and game play. She's an angel flame swords woman. She has the power to shoot power balls at enemy, heal herself or allies, throw flames of fire from her sword, and defend allies with heavenly shields.

So this is where I feel Kayle fails as a champion. What I just said is a HUGEEEE mouth full. Let's get this straight.

Shes..a battle mage...healing..swordsman of fire who can also fly because she is an angel..

So when reworking her. Should Riot completely remove 1 or 2 abilities from her toolkit to bring more focus onto a certain theme she has? For example remove her healing ability to bring room for her fighting abilities. Or perhaps it could be the oppisite, remove her Power balls/slow to make room for her supportive abilities?

This is not me saying "Kayle should be ____" this is me asking the fans what they think Kayle should be? For at the moment, she just has way to many themes/goals in one toolkit. personally I feel she would shine more as a champion if riot stuck to a flame swords woman theme.

Everyone else?

27 Comments

Forbidden Siren3 votes

Her E and R are definitely what makes Kayle... Kayle. She's a melee champ who can turn into a range champ for a short period of time with a click of a button and her ult is a lifesaver for many battles and herself. I feel as long as they keep these two intact, her Q and W could be somewhat change.

Paquay1 votes

Wait, Kayle has a Q and a W?? I didn't even realize those were there. Lol

Totally agree, her E makes her Kayle, her R is very nice. Her Q and W are there to bring a minimal amount of utility to her kit.

PhantomGG1 votes

{quoted}

Wait, Kayle has a Q and a W?? I didn't even realize those were there. Lol

Totally agree, her E makes her Kayle, her R is very nice. Her Q and W are there to bring a minimal amount of utility to her kit.

If you are playing her on Urf you forget she even has any other buttons lol, but to be fair most the champions are like that on urf.

Twitch Magus2 votes

In my opinion, Kayle E and R are core to her identity; therefore, those abilities should only be tweaked, not reworked. Her W and Q are old and I wouldn't mind changes to them. Her Q especially is outdated and feels really lackluster, being a point click damage/slow that feels bad to use out of the laning phase.

I think Q needs to become a skillshot like Soraka's silence (But more difficult to land), but instead it just roots if it lands. This would give Kayle definite windows where she can land reliable E damage if she lands a difficult skillshot.

woodvsmurph1 votes

I actually like the idea of making q a stun/root skillshot. They could call it the "weight of justice" or something. Make it a skill shot root and they could make w either pure healing OR something like jayce acceleration gate that buffs her and her teammates movespeed when walked over.

Big Lincoln2 votes

she should stay a hypercarry. We've lost too many

Anonagon2 votes

We haven't lost particularly many hypercarries, nor are point-and-click hypercarries like Kayle worth having in the game at all

Big Lincoln1 votes

Poppy Sion

she doesn't need to stay point and click but she should absolutely retain her late game curve

Anonagon1 votes

We gained more in their place, ones that are actually dynamic and interactive, and are allowed to be actually usable in the earlygame because of it.

Gangplank Graves

As for Kayle, I certainly wouldn't mind her power leaning towards the lategame, but I do not think that she should be a primary carry with her theme and ult (which I would be surprised if it didn't stay).

I think that the most interesting route they could go with Kayle (and this is something they've mentioned before) is the idea of her being a support-carry. That is, she starts off as a relatively weak laning support but can transition into a strong secondary damage threat.

woodvsmurph2 votes

Dynamic and interactive? GP is the dumbest "melee" champ out there. He is less interactive than teemo or jayce. He sits at max range farming with barrels. You get a kill advantage? He ults bot from across the map and picks up 2 kills or assists and is back to even. You actually manage to catch him and lock him down? He oranges and runs away. You chase? You have no more gapclosers off cd and he just barrels to take 1/4 your hp while also slowing you. So you set up a giant wave to shove in and tower dive. Except, he's eaten more oranges without apparent affect on his mana bar and is now full hp. 2 barrels later, he's cleared the whole wave. Yeah he's totally interactive and well-designed.

Anonagon1 votes

bruh, it doesn't matter if you think GP is annoying or too strong, or even badly designed

GP is simply less binary and stupid than the hypercarries of old (Old Poppy, Old Sion, Yi, Kayle, etc). With those champions, they right-clicked you and you either had enough CC (or burst if they aren't Kayle or Old Poppy) to stop them or you died. Even if its difficult or not all that practical, GP has a massive amount of counterplay in comparison.

woodvsmurph1 votes

old kayle? old kayle wasn't resigned to be a right click champ. She was a sheen god combining burst, sustain, and sustained damage. She'd e, auto, q, auto, w, auto, and you died cuz her burst combined with sheen was that good at one point. She could be build ad, ap, or hybrid. She was more interactive than gp in laning phase, more easily solo punished, and still required risk (you could catch her with hard cc and blow her up even at 6 items) late game to deal damage. Hardly the chicken gp sitting outside cait auto range to deal 3/4 people's hp with one barrel chain and then ulting from anywhere on map to finish people off while being able to instantly cleanse out of any cc. Only people who have no clue what they are talking about or a blind gp fanboy would claim otherwise.

Old sion? He was an ap burst champ in most cases. You COULD build him ad, but then he only had 2 abilities in his kit that had meaningful scaling and synergy with ad build. And again - required stacking (like nasus q) and much more interaction with lane opponent and enemy team in teamfights than gp.

Poppy? Poppy had one of the worst laning phases and only got through it while staying even if the other person really messed up or just sat back lazily and farmed. Gp has 10x easier laning phase than old poppy while having at least equally strong late game - arguably stronger because poppy could only delete one person and could be kited while gp can dish out same damage as she could except he can do it to 5 enemies at once.

Furthermore, why are you comparing him to champ kits that have either been reworked or restatted so that the comparison is not even valid? Having to resort to comparing to broken kits/stats that were removed for those exact reasons just shows how stupidly unpunishing gp's laning phase is while his late game remains broken strong.[zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-mindblown]

chipndip11 votes

Graves isn't a hyper-carry. GP is though.

woodvsmurph2 votes

Kayle's kit used to have enough ap scaling that you could build her as a caster or caster/aa hybrid. Her q had meaningful damage, her w heal was much stronger. Now her q is only good for a slow, her w is more for movespeed than offering decent sustain/healing, and she still requires 30%+ cdr just to keep her e up; she's worthless when her e is down. She HAS TO go aa build. She needs the option of going caster/aa with meaningful damage from q and better healing on w. If you are going to keep her as an aa champ, she needs better base and scaling attack speed because she straight up gets outstatted in that category by champs like jax - even neglecting jax's attack speed from his passive. Preferably, she keeps her ability to build ad, ap, or hybrid. Without more meaningful base and/or scaling on her q, you quickly end up doing less damage to someone by hitting them with q than if you had just kept auto attacking. Her w had more of it's strength changed into it's movespeed rather than it's healing. This I feel was done to help support kayle and to give her more utility, but the lost healing really hurt. She needs: a better or reworked q, more healing on w - perhaps base healing and not any buff to ap scaling on w, a lower cd on e if she's going to be an aa champ.

chipndip12 votes

If she has a defensive ult, make her an enchanter primary champion, suited for supporting. Probs keep the heal/speed up too.

If they focus her around her E instead, make her into an ap marksman and change the ult and heal/shield. Maybe keep the Q.

We CAN NOT have both.

Sioxor1 votes

I played against a Kayle a few days ago and I could not believe the amount of damage that she dished out. I think they should get rid of her heal and make that ability to be something like Vi's W I think it is. Where every three attacks her third does extra damage/ more penetration. That is what I would do to solidify her identity but I honestly rather them not touch Kayle so people don't give her attention. That champion does more damage in such a small amount of time than you can even imagine late game.

Shaydrox1 votes

We have so many of those three hit effects already, not to mention her DPS is insane and guaranteed, adding a three hit effect to it will only make her more of a stat-check champion.

woodvsmurph1 votes

kayle already has bonus armor pen via her passive - 15% armor AND mr shred. That's part of what makes her so strong along with her hybrid damage.

Mega Noob1 votes

{quoted}

I played against a Kayle a few days ago and I could not believe the amount of damage that she dished out. I think they should get rid of her heal and make that ability to be something like Vi's W I think it is. Where every three attacks her third does extra damage/ more penetration. That is what I would do to solidify her identity but I honestly rather them not touch Kayle so people don't give her attention. That champion does more damage in such a small amount of time than you can even imagine late game.

The you realize, she has 60 on hit and 260 base damage on her 1 ability. "tons of damage", in late game ad carries does more damage.

lilpokfluf1 votes

I think they should make her actually have a flame sword that looks like a flame sword attack not little fireballs that show up when she shakes around. Riot seems to like reworking into unique champs. Make her a have a very long melee sword attack when E is up. She also needs some kind of outplay mechanic or ability.

Her current R is lame, she's basically a ranged tryndamere who just runs at enemies mindlessly and hopes she out stat checks them. Keeping her current E and R are the reason she's boring and only gets nerfs.

PhantomGG1 votes

{quoted}

I think they should make her actually have a flame sword that looks like a flame sword attack not little fireballs that show up when she shakes around. Riot seems to like reworking into unique champs. Make her a have a very long melee sword attack when E is up. She also needs some kind of outplay mechanic or ability.

Her current R is lame, she's basically a ranged tryndamere who just runs at enemies mindlessly and hopes she out stat checks them. Keeping her current E and R are the reason she's boring and only gets nerfs.

Glad to see i'm not the only one who is interested in the idea of a flame sword maiden being focused on for her.

Titanium701 votes

I fell in love with Kayle the first time I saw her on the Rift and with her AetherWing Skin things got even better - sadly I was never able to really play her because since eternity Kayle is just the Champ who wins by abusing the SHIT out of Items. And I dont like such abusive playstyles.

She is a Champion with Infinite potential who gets gimped by her own Kit. Sadly.

For a possible Rework I'd hope for something like this:

  • Make her a AP-Caster with AA Interactions.
  • Give her fixed AS that scales well into late! (Translate Bonus-AS into something else)
  • Make the E mean something! High-CD High Impact! (And obviously design the rest of her Kit in a way she's not completely useless once down forcing her into 36%CDR builds! #meaningfull "windows of power")
  • Q is a pathetic excuse for Spell - get rid of it completely and give something new.
  • W is quite good, although I'd like something more Teamoriented - maybe a restoring zone? (Angel, blessed ground, opposite to Morgana - you know) Maybe increase the zones duration each time you hit an AA?
  • Passive: Old - unintreactive - outdated - Complete Rework!
  • For her Ult I want something big, something worth being called INTERVENTION. Instead of unconditional invulnerability that eats 60%of her powerbudget I'd make it a little more specific. I.E: Grant one Teammate or your selfe Zhonyas for X seconds summoning a Blade from the Sky at the end of the duration dealing massive AoE-DMG around the target as well as in line you point at.

Ok, but what's with OnHit - that is her major buildpath for a few years now and somewhat part of her identity - I guess. Kayle mains? opinions?

  • IF I'd want to keep the onhit aspect - I'd let her scale with it over E and Ult maybe Passive. E gets additional effects based on the Onhit effect you stacked. R deals AP-Scaling magic DMG in the cricle and applys all the onhit DMG you would have dealt during the Zhonyas-Time at once in the line I spoke of.

This all from NOT a Kayle main. Just a guy who loves the Champion.

[One last thing: With a Kayle-Rework a Morgana-Rework is kinda mandatory - if not - I'm sad]

PhantomGG1 votes

{quoted}

I fell in love with Kayle the first time I saw her on the Rift and with her AetherWing Skin things got even better - sadly I was never able to really play her because since eternity Kayle is just the Champ who wins by abusing the SHIT out of Items. And I dont like such abusive playstyles.

She is a Champion with Infinite potential who gets gimped by her own Kit. Sadly.

For a possible Rework I'd hope for something like this:

  • Make her a AP-Caster with AA Interactions.
  • Give her fixed AS that scales well into late! (Translate Bonus-AS into something else)
  • Make the E mean something! High-CD High Impact! (And obviously design the rest of her Kit in a way she's not completely useless once down forcing her into 36%CDR builds! #meaningfull "windows of power")
  • Q is a pathetic excuse for Spell - get rid of it completely and give something new.
  • W is quite good, although I'd like something more Teamoriented - maybe a restoring zone? (Angel, blessed ground, opposite to Morgana - you know) Maybe increase the zones duration each time you hit an AA?
  • Passive: Old - unintreactive - outdated - Complete Rework!
  • For her Ult I want something big, something worth being called INTERVENTION. Instead of unconditional invulnerability that eats 60%of her powerbudget I'd make it a little more specific. I.E: Grant one Teammate or your selfe Zhonyas for X seconds summoning a Blade from the Sky at the end of the duration dealing massive AoE-DMG around the target as well as in line you point at.

Ok, but what's with OnHit - that is her major buildpath for a few years now and somewhat part of her identity - I guess. Kayle mains? opinions?

  • IF I'd want to keep the onhit aspect - I'd let her scale with it over E and Ult maybe Passive. E gets additional effects based on the Onhit effect you stacked. R deals AP-Scaling magic DMG in the cricle and applys all the onhit DMG you would have dealt during the Zhonyas-Time at once in the line I spoke of.

This all from NOT a Kayle main. Just a guy who loves the Champion.

[One last thing: With a Kayle-Rework a Morgana-Rework is kinda mandatory - if not - I'm sad]

On what you said at the end Riot has said they plan to do the morgana/kayle rework at the same time, which is why when people saw rakan/xayah they thought it was going to be the sisters, cause you know wings. But this was quickly confirmed to not be the case.

Titanium701 votes

Ah - good to hear. ^^ Thx. But who exactly mistaken Rakan and Xayah with the two angels? x'D

MuffledGarbage1 votes

Kayle's E needs to still be a flaming sword basic attack enhancer steroid for sure, R can stay the same and be balanced.

The Q and W need to go, however.

The Q only helps Kayle's Passive to have another stack and is mostly useless outside of lanephase.

Kayle's W has been nerfed to such a degree that the only reason to level it is for the movement speed.

The heal is so negligible, even when building full AP(which is a bad/dumb idea anyway). The movement speed buff becomes an insane steroid of speed.

I'd say make the Q a giant skillshot that pokes out from her sword... like [insert justice and stab in a pun here] Q: Kayle stabs forward with flames, dealing X/X/X/X/X + Y% AP in a line and Slowing those hit by her (I think I'd go with 90% because that's her current slow but might be less or go up with level, idk really)

that's my guess on a reworked Q.

For W It'd have to be a sustain type passive thing like: [insert justice and sustain pun here] W: Kayle heals for X/X/X/X/X% of the magic damage she deals for Y+(Y for every Z% of AP ) seconds.

idk

Erockandroll1 votes

I'm a bit surprised that people are pointing to the finer details, (abilities) and not so much the larger purpose of the champion. Which I consider important, as I've have played her at least 3 different ways in the past. (Burst mage, skirmisher, heck even as a support)

But based of of peoples responses, they favor the Skirmisher style build, that relys on high AS. Mostly in the sense that her E should be preserved. A slight challenge to that, you can rework how the ability is presented. At the moment, CDR gives her a have and have not window with that ability, Which impacts her window of weakness for her opponents to exploit. This might mean that CDR isn't a good limiter to that ability. But say, if we gave that ability a Fishbones styled mana cost. It would have a much more significant mana gate. (it would also likely shape her build path.)

Other than that, I'm not sure. You could replace her magier abilities, with other abilities that help her skirmish. But as it is, her skirmishing split push style, is kinda the reason why she keeps getting nerfed into the ground. In part because of the amount of DPS she gets from the AP/AS build, and because of the AS scaling making her mana cost kinda moot.

LadyRenly1 votes

I like her being an AS on hit monster like kog shrug

Whatever they rework her to, she'll probably be completely different

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