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Dear Riot, let's talk about Talon

Wukong Airlines··18 votes·5,046 views

First of all, this post is a copy past, credit goes to "Sealed Talon, EUW"

Hi,

Talon Talon got his rework and riot did great work in my opinion, even tough he lost much of his identity. He felt strong and fun to play. Its also a known fact that the Talon playerbase is almost complety made of one trick ponies ,the talon redditpage has more follower than zeds one even tough zeds playerbase is much larger , this dedicated playerbase grew under the new talon even more tough its playerwise still smaller than most other playerbases.

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This was almost 4 moths ago, the current talon in the new season is lackluster. Talons playrate is around 1.6-1.7 % (from 2,5~3%) and has a 47-48% (from around 52%) winrate that means even the hardcore mains that play him right now cant get a good winrate on him. Zeds playrate is aroumd 7,8-8% and his winrate is almost at 50%. Its not only a matter of the meta that makes talon weak, its talon himself. He is very predictable because of his slow E jumps , he can easily be countered by pretty much everything. Talon wasn't op or too weak before the rune changes he was allright, season 8 put talon in a very bad position (he lost many things like armorpen, stormraiders, dmg in general and pretty much everyone else that was on talons kill/avoid list got much better with the new runesystem). Also runes wont change much and items wont either to make him viable again, that means if talon doesnt get any love like rengar he will pretty much stay this weak all the time.

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so please riot give our boy talon a little bit of longsword love, he can be changed to the better in many ways:

-making his W faster -straight up improving his dmg -shortening the time he can output his dmg -giving his E some passive to make it easier to get in or out of fights -making his melee Q able to proc his passive -making his Q faster and or longer (scaling with movespeed) -buffing stormraiders since its also really bad right now and talon can use it to escape much better etc...

Im not alone with this feeling the whole Talon redditpage feels like this [https://www.reddit.com/r/Talonmains/]

It would also be awesome to get some infos about talons lore/splashart updateTalon item 1036item 1036item 1036 item 1036

Edit: on a side note, Talon's playrate disappeared from toplane after dropping to 44% winratio last week.

50 Comments

EA147 votes

Talon's damage is decent right now, but his ability to deal that damage is the main problem. His w almost never hits twice, and when it does, half the time he won't even have the chance to proc his passive. Stopwatch, cc's, shields, heals, "sustained damage" from adcs, etc. Assassins in s8 are lacking in so many forms. Zed Talon Ekko are just to name a few. A good chunk of their damage can be easily blocked, and the damage they are able to pull off can't even penetrate the shields and heals in this season. There should definitely be another assassin*[zombie-nunu-bummed]* rework.

LemonsIsGood1 votes

[deleted]

rip john shelby4 votes

Leblanc would like to have a word with you.

Evil Yasuo1 votes

{quoted}

Talon's damage is decent right now, but his ability to deal that damage is the main problem. His w almost never hits twice, and when it does, half the time he won't even have the chance to proc his passive. Stopwatch, cc's, shields, heals, "sustained damage" from adcs, etc. Assassins in s8 are lacking in so many forms. Zed Talon Ekko are just to name a few. A good chunk of their damage can be easily blocked, and the damage they are able to pull off can't even penetrate the shields and heals in this season. There should definitely be another assassin*[zombie-nunu-bummed]* rework.

I'm 100% down for this. Would LOVE another assassin rework and the lethality to go along with it. This time though, i'd prefer each champ to individually be worked on instead of thrown together like rengar was. Talon, Leblanc and Kat could all use vgu's btw. (please Riot, redo Renegade into another skin)

Modl Ryden l5 votes

They have made an adjustment to Talon so that he queue's an autoattack right after he uses Noxian Diplomacy to let players more reliably proc the bleed passive on Blade's End.

I will say, as a long time Talon main dating to his release, he doesn't feel as quick on his toes anymore. The feel of his playstyle really revolves around making his passive happen. As a player that has been playing since season 1, I really do miss his old E, Cutthroat. It made trades a lot more intuitive since you used it to evade a mage's cc, instantly dodge what could have been a fatal skill shot and allowed you to get in and unload your burst. Sadly I do understand the frustration of anyone facing old Talon and how quick his burst rotation was and for why the padding on his ability to execute was wanted. I wouldn't say it was needed since he is amongest the reworked assassins his method of getting in and out has been severely gimped. His damage is still there but being able to get to his target, from my experience, has been very difficult. His Q just moves too damn slow and is too short of a range. His E is too gimmicky and it has made me dislike playing him anymore. It's too much like Rengar where it is a skill the relies on the map you play to set up your kills. The roaming is good but having Mobi boots and Youmuu's alone already does the job for you.

Fear the Kayn3 votes

Maybe give him a few buffs, but seriously, why the fuck can he jump over Azir wall. Remove that shit ASAP, please.

Handy Sandy 3 votes

Azir's wall does not stop dashes when it stops. This includes Fizz Ahri Diana and of course Talon

NineTailedMystic5 votes

I think he means "why can Talon E over it at all"

Handy Sandy 7 votes

it's just regular terrain, and talon can jump over terrain.

Anivia JarvanIV Trundle Yorick Taliyah

NineTailedMystic2 votes

I like how I got downvoted for clarifying. I have no stake in whether or not he should be able to jump it.

SteamBuster3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fear the Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z9k98sH7,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-29T00:08:33.391+0000)

Maybe give him a few buffs, but seriously, why the fuck can he jump over Azir wall. Remove that shit ASAP, please.

I never play Azir, but I thought it just bounced players off the wall. Is it like a Camille ult where they shouldn't be able to get over it no matter what?

Fear the Kayn1 votes

Nope, I was playing Azir a couple days ago and Talon all-in'd me, so I ulted him toward my tower thinking I made a sick play but nope, he just hopped over the wall and Q'd me.

nm10101 votes

They changed it with the mini rework. Only pushes back on cast now instead of during the whole duration

SteamBuster1 votes

{quoted}

They changed it with the mini rework. Only pushes back on cast now instead of during the whole duration

So that means that Talon should be able to jump over it then.

nm10101 votes

Yup along with all other wall interactions i imagine (Vayne condemn stun, poppy head butt, etc).

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fear the Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z9k98sH7,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-29T00:08:33.391+0000)

Maybe give him a few buffs, but seriously, why the fuck can he jump over Azir wall. Remove that shit ASAP, please.

He can't unless he has a Spellshield or spell immunity of some kind.

Ben SwoIo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fear the Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z9k98sH7,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-29T00:08:33.391+0000)

Maybe give him a few buffs, but seriously, why the fuck can he jump over Azir wall. Remove that shit ASAP, please.

Umm, no. Its already hard enough trying to gap close without eating some easy mode mage spells. He gets poked very easily, I don't even want to hear no mages crying. ESPECIALLY this season.

MuffledGarbage3 votes

Talon's attack speed would be the best buff for him so that after a QW he can proc his passive without being a SLOW AF boi and stop being useless when he DOES actually jump on someone!!!

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Talon's attack speed would be the best buff for him so that after a QW he can proc his passive without being a SLOW AF boi and stop being useless when he DOES actually jump on someone!!!

This. i even made a topic about it.

Get Ogre Here3 votes

God, I really wanna disagree with this whole thing, but as a Talon almost-one-trick, it would be a dream come true for him to be buffed.

YEA RITO TALON UNDERPOWERED PLS BUFF!

But there are some things that make him really clunky:

  • Auto reset on melee Q works about 50% of the time. It's a gamble whether or not it gets you a kill.

  • Sometimes when I use E I do this dumbass backflip thing that has lost me dozens of kills and has killed me dozens of times. Makes me wanna stop playing him sometimes.

  • Sometimes when the person is CLEARLY out of the melee range on Q, Talon extends his blade to the 4th dimension to hit the person, not allowing me to catch up to the person, which loses me the kill.

Tbh if Riot fixed these 3 things that's all I could ever want :)

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Get Ogre Here,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z9k98sH7,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-01-29T02:19:26.031+0000)

God, I really wanna disagree with this whole thing, but as a Talon almost-one-trick, it would be a dream come true for him to be buffed.

YEA RITO TALON UNDERPOWERED PLS BUFF!

But there are some things that make him really clunky:

  • Auto reset on melee Q works about 50% of the time. It's a gamble whether or not it gets you a kill.

  • Sometimes when I use E I do this dumbass backflip thing that has lost me dozens of kills and has killed me dozens of times. Makes me wanna stop playing him sometimes.

  • Sometimes when the person is CLEARLY out of the melee range on Q, Talon extends his blade to the 4th dimension to hit the person, not allowing me to catch up to the person, which loses me the kill.

Tbh if Riot fixed these 3 things that's all I could ever want :)

These so much.

Evil Yasuo3 votes

Live and die by the long sword, brother.<3 I haven't quit playing Talon btw, he's still my boi. It's just stopwatch meta has kinda angered me lately... anyways, you always make extremely good points Cloud.

I reallyyyyyy want them to change his passive to either be proced in a more reliable way like 'dealing damage equal to X within 3 seconds causes target to bleed' or just change it something different entirely and maybe add a weaker bleed on his rake/ult. Which btw I wish they revert his rake/ult.

Talon mains are very dedicated to this champ riot.

Teridax683 votes

Changes I've wanted to see in Talon for some time:

  • Allowing him to vault over enemies, either with his Q or by letting him use E on champions on a much shorter cooldown.
  • Making his Q an autoattack modifier once more, and thereby allowing him to proc on-hit effects and his innate.
  • Removing his W slow but shortening its delay to 0.5 seconds.
  • Having his ult converge on him at all times, in conjunction with him being able to vault over targets in-combat.

Adding to this, however, I think one major current problem affecting him, along with many other assassins, is Stopwatch: because the item is so common, and messes up his burst so much, while also consequently impacting on his early snowballing, he and other assassins aren't doing so great even when their kits are alright. In Talon's case, I think he could probably use some love even beyond that, though, and there's likely some potential for making his combat feel better without straight-up giving him more damage. While I do think assassins should be capable of great burst, obviously, I think it is also important that they retain counterplay against their opponents at all times. Because of this, while shortening his delays might buff his damage indirectly, I think those kinds of buffs should be secondary to changes that would take away less interactivity from his opponents.

Souji2 votes

One change I would love would be for his auto after Q to be fixed. I've missed out on so many bleed procs due to my auto not going off.

Wukong Airlines3 votes

The close-ranged Q , yea. It's frustrating he doens't AA after you do it. The thing is, a lot of people got used to that combo but Riot changed it all of a sudden and now he lost the proc power.

Evil Yasuo1 votes

{quoted}

One change I would love would be for his auto after Q to be fixed. I've missed out on so many bleed procs due to my auto not going off.

This is the definition of why I wish it could be something like 'dealing 30% of target's health within 3 seconds causes target to bleed' RELIABILITY

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Because that's really easy to accomplish. Especially if you walk up to them in stealth for the Q crit.

Evil Yasuo2 votes

{quoted}

Because that's really easy to accomplish. Especially if you walk up to them in stealth for the Q crit.

How do you walk up to them in stealth?.... Does like the bush come with you? And who is going to stand there and just take a close range Q?

NineTailedMystic2 votes

idk, your R button?

Evil Yasuo1 votes

{quoted}

idk, your R button?

So you don't think Talon's ult + aa range Q should deal 30% of someone's health?.......... I do 60% of people's healthbar at lvl 2 dude.

Wimbledofy2 votes

He didn't say that? How do you not know what he's saying? He's saying that the version of the passive you made up would be way too easy to proc since you can do what he said.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

That's not what I said or meant at all. I'm saying that it would be way too easy to do 30% of someone's health making his passive too easy to proc.

MrPhamtom2 votes

So his Passive, Q, W, R are all delayed burst and have high potential damage and he generally looks good on paper. But in a real situation he never actually pulls off his full combo in teamfights. So Talon is just a really paper theorycrafting hero.

then he has his E which is just so out of place and is nonsensical with his kit, with it being the only ability that works in "real" situations.

Evil Yasuo2 votes

Fuck it, I want a Talon update completely now. I'm talking VGU where they redo him with artwork and everything. Will it happen? Probably not but damn can I dream. I wish they would rework Renegade into another skin. I wish he had interaction between champions like these new champs get. I wish they made him the shadowblade he truly is.

Talon needs some love!!

People give "underground" champions like Aatrox and Nunu tons of attention and riot gives them buffs frequently, Talon always sits under the radar.

KennysDreamGirl2 votes

how did he lose much of his identity? his kit is basically the same as it was before from what i remember besides his e

Wimbledofy2 votes

His E was a big part of his identity though. Went from a mobile assassin with the ability to dodge skillshots to an assassin that is only mobile when he wants to run away.

KennysDreamGirl2 votes

that makes no sense really. how can a champions identity only be one dumb ability? i know i never picked talon only because he had an instant blink on his e.

Wimbledofy2 votes

Lots of champs have 1 ability as a big part of their identity. And I didn't say their identity was only 1 ability I said a big part. Ezreal Q is a big part of his identity, Yas Q, Morgana Q, Thresh Q, Blitz Q, Leblanc W. You may not have picked talon because of his E, but I did before his rework and other people likely did as well. Vaporadark was a big talon main before his rework, and because his E was taken away he stopped playing him. How is losing most of a champs mobility (especially and assassin) not considered losing a big bart of their identity?

KennysDreamGirl1 votes

I guess that's where we are different. I don't view abilities as a champs identity most of the time(example is tibburs for Annie, she isn't anni without him) I look more to the themes and visuals for a champs identity. Take aatrox, when I see him I see a demon( I know he isn't a demon in lore but he looks like he could be one to me) looking warrior fueled by battle. I could care less what his abilities are as long as they fit that theme, and that's how I view a champs identity.

AS I LAY FEEDING2 votes

Tbh Talons rework for me looks like one of the slackiest reworks i have ever seen. His Q looks like meh and dont apply on hit effects when i clearly looks like a aa.

Edit: Old Talon was faster and better. His Q is a clunky gap closer imo. I dont really care about his E because most fights are in lane. They should done a Katarina dash or something, because if you face a adc with 80% crit you die mid air.

GGLineaR1 votes

Tweak him so people play him jungle only, then sure positive changes would be rad.

But don't make Talon mid viable again.

I'm glad Talon mid isn't a thing anymore. Made the game unbearable.

woof doggo bark1 votes

Too bad it's still a thing! I only ever play him mid.

Longtowel1 votes

How do you feel about reducing the size of the ring of his ult?

It might lower his AoE capacity in say a teamfight, but it might make him a tiny bit more stealthy.

If you are about to ult, jump over all and murder someone, sometimes ulting gives you away since they can see some of the blades since the ring is so large.

Also, we could make his Q dash go behind the enemy, or rather dash through the enemy champion, so that if you Q and second-cast ult, its much easier to hit. Sometimes Q from dash and casting ult could result in you missing the second part of ult if they move even a little bit.

Talon has some glaring weakness other assassins don't have, because he goes in hard, and has a hard time getting away if hes not fighting next to a wall. With the new rune system, I feel like he's a bit more vulnerable, as he can't take his armor/MR runes anymore.

Just some thoughts.

DorkunedAuras3 votes

Talon doesn't use the ult stealth to enter a fight, he uses it for the burst+escape

reducing the size is a straight nerf

ChaddyFantome2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wrecked Wrecker,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z9k98sH7,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-01-29T01:05:57.965+0000)

How do you feel about reducing the size of the ring of his ult?

It might lower his AoE capacity in say a teamfight, but it might make him a tiny bit more stealthy.

If you are about to ult, jump over all and murder someone, sometimes ulting gives you away since they can see some of the blades since the ring is so large.

Also, we could make his Q dash go behind the enemy, or rather dash through the enemy champion, so that if you Q and second-cast ult, its much easier to hit. Sometimes Q from dash and casting ult could result in you missing the second part of ult if they move even a little bit.

Talon has some glaring weakness other assassins don't have, because he goes in hard, and has a hard time getting away if hes not fighting next to a wall. With the new rune system, I feel like he's a bit more vulnerable, as he can't take his armor/MR runes anymore.

Just some thoughts.

Talon's ult is not for engaging. he isn't Rengar. I'll never understand why people think that is what it is meant to be used for.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Honestly, i just want Stormraiders back more than anything. I just feel so damn slow on the rift right now.

Triple3T1 votes

I don't believe Talon's problem is damage, it's his counterplay. Before lv 6, the only reasonable way to proc his passive is to hit both sides of his w and a q. Considering the fact that his passive is a large chunk of his damage (like 100~ at early) people avoid it like the plague.

My suggestion is either increase the slow on his w so that the 1 time that you actually hit it, you can capitalize on it easier or make the w return faster so that he gets more windows of opportunity.

SymbolicFear1 votes

Lol, talon mains crying cause their champ isn't downright dominating non stop XD

Well unfortunately for you guys, Talon should be an assassin, and an assassin should rely on his team to do their part after he ASSASSINATES a priority target, and if the team does not, then its a lose. Its a fair thing.

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