wtf is is with the "shaco" shitposts, he has a 51-54% winrate... in EVERY ELO

SwiftKitten88·Feb 24, 2018·117 votes·5,836 views

pick a champ that donest have a 51-54% winrate in every elo to complain about

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/shaco/all

go to the top right corner... pick an elo.. doesn't go below 51% IN ANY OF THEM.

i have literally NEVER seen ANY group of champion mains that complained about wanting buffs at above 51% as much as shaco.

who ALREADY has hand down the most toxic kit in the game to deal with.. which is now ever WORSE because junglers can no longer get without COMPLETLY dropping thier ability to ward.

maybe there are some shaco mains, who arn't complete assholes. who arn't asking for buffs to a champ that is actually balanced. and even in his balanced state a nightmare for your opponent to deal with.. but those arn't the people i see on the forums.

177 Comments

Chembaron YamadaFeb 25, 201856 votes

Just seems that the Shaco playerbase is highly dedicated. Shaco deserves nerfs, actually. But they will never admit it.

KuraSeiFeb 25, 20189 votes

He needs changes not nerfs. Nerfing his damage would gut him. And if you want to nerf his invis then how bout eve and twitch too? Doesn't need nerfs lol.

Player3Th0masFeb 25, 201817 votes

Eve and twitch are cloaked, Shaco is actual invisibility.

CðulrophobiaFeb 26, 20182 votes

I mentioned it so many times that i'm sick of it already

Shaco deserves early game buffs, and late game nerfs. Also duskblade nerf already is gutting him for 200 damage.

FCJAAAAGOOOOFeb 25, 201844 votes

Bad players don't play Shaco.

Tails9016Feb 25, 20185 votes

The only champ where people realize they're bad at playing

~~Wait I can't play Shaco either~~

Tomoe GozenFeb 25, 20182 votes

Pink Ward is so good at Shaco that his playstyle can be called "online bullying".

Electro522Feb 25, 201834 votes

{quoted}

i have literally NEVER seen ANY group of champion mains that complained about wanting buffs at above 51% as much as shaco.

Ahri

T4underboltFeb 25, 201810 votes

Agriculture isn't bad in terms of power. She is bad in terms of carrying. Her kit has been reworked so she can't reliably carry. She is a good champion and you can outplay and win lanes but translating it into win is much harder as 5/0 agriculture than e.g. 5/0 syndra. She needs the previous changes reverted.number wise she is very good.

MogarlFeb 25, 20186 votes

Agriculture? Is this a meme, or auto-correct? Farmer Ahri skin where she's wearing a pair of overalls?

In the end though I agree as someone who has had several Ahris on my team that play well get a lead and then just can't actually do anything to carry later. Even if Riot wants to keep her as a kiting mage she needs to lose some safety and pick up some low-ish cooldown damage that can make her enough of a threat to be worth chasing. Otherwise her safety just makes her a nuisance in laning and her lack of damage makes her ignorable later.

T4underboltFeb 25, 20184 votes

Holy sht. This damn auto correct killing me everytime.

BlåbæretFeb 25, 201816 votes

Agriculture lmao, had a good laugh there buddy.

MogarlFeb 25, 201814 votes

She has large... tracks of land.

General Esdeath Feb 25, 201813 votes

I'd like to plow those fields

[sg-jinx]

Tomoe GozenFeb 25, 20187 votes

[sg-ahri-3]

Harden StepbackFeb 24, 201827 votes

just shaco mains defending freelo

GULAG 4 UFeb 25, 201818 votes

Ahri MY Janna CHAMPION Ahri IS Janna NOT Ahri BALANCED Janna UNLESS Ahri IT Janna HAS Ahri A WINRATE Janna ABOVE Ahri 53% Janna

SwiftKitten88Feb 25, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=GULAG 4 U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z7Ex4xin,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-02-25T00:13:52.014+0000)

MY CHAMPION IS NOT BALANCED UNLESS IT HAS A WINRATE ABOVE 53%

ahri is fine.. janna is not...

at least when ahri i see good plays like summoner 4 ulti own redirects... and shit... janna can do good things to but you dont need to and the stupdi speed boost she has now makes her impossible to hit with skillshots

GULAG 4 UFeb 25, 201815 votes

Yeah ahri is fine, this is a joke about the people who complain whenever these champions winrates fall below 52.

VoraciousXFeb 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

ahri is fine.. janna is not...

at least when ahri i see good plays like ulti own redirects... and shit... janna can do good things to but you dont need to and the stupdi speed boost she has now makes her impossible to hit with skillshots

You're complaining about Shaco mains complaining about nerfs while they're actually talking about looking at reverting Ahri's Q move speed buff because she's overperforming when behind and underperforming when ahead and saying she's "fine"? Guess the balance team is only right when it's convenient.

Jerry SeinfeIdFeb 25, 201811 votes

Shaco isn't fine. Sure ad shaco can burst thanks to item 3147 +electrocute/dark harvest. But shaco gets nerfed almost all the time, now riot is looking at nerfing ad shaco's main item and compensating everyone except for him.

That's all i'll say about ad shaco as i don't play him.

AP shaco is in the gutter, when i succesfully beat an opponent prerework i felt good. I felt like i outplayed someone by jumping around luring him into traps, dodging his abilites. No other champ has given me that feeling which is why i like shaco. After the rework ap shaco became stronger, great especially his new ult is nice. But AP shaco was dominating and got nerfed, so ad shaco was back but ap was still ok (imo). After that came nerf after nerf to ap shaco for no reason i could see, ad was dominating again yet ap got nerfed too. The change from magical dmg to physical dmg on two shiv poison didn't help either. I think looking into some adaptive damage changes might be nice for him.

His biggest problem is that he's an assassin without a ticket out. His disengage is his engage. He also suffers from the fact that traps aren't all that great these days, so much shit counters stealth traps. I don't think they feel like shaco is weak, it's the fact that riot is even thinking about nerfing him again that scares/angers them. Riot has shown little love to shacman, and he's just a sadboy now.

edit: as a matter of fact i think duskblade is so core on him i even build it as ap shacman. (haven't played him with the new ap items tho)

GettemCloneFeb 25, 201811 votes

look at most champs with low fukin pick rate .. they all got 51-55% win rate .. its because only OTP's are playing it .. fukin hell use ur brain..

ivern 53%, quinn 55%, aatrox 53%, kind 54%, olaf 53%, sol 55%, kayle 51%, draven 55%, udyr 55%,

now look at shaco when he had 2% pick rate .. he was at 55% win rate .. now he's at 3.20% pick rate .. and his win rate dropped to 52% !!

PyromaniacksFeb 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

look at most champs with low fukin pick rate .. they all got 51-55% win rate .. its because only OTP's are playing it .. fukin hell use ur brain..

ivern 53%, quinn 55%, aatrox 53%, kind 54%, olaf 53%, sol 55%, kayle 51%, draven 55%, udyr 55%,

now look at shaco when he had 2% pick rate .. he was at 55% win rate .. now he's at 3.20% pick rate .. and his win rate dropped to 52% !!

I don't see why one trick players should have higher win rates as their main champ if almost all their games are that one champ unless they are below their mmr.

Honestly hate this champ anyway. Stealth isn't a play and when shaco comes out of being invisible and instantly one shots you I'm sure no one thinks "damn I got outplayed." Stealth is just a cheesy mechanic and cheesy strategies mainly exist to beat opponents of greater skill level than you.

3TWarriorFeb 25, 20186 votes

rengar, khazix, twitch

you've also basically admitted that you don't ward bushes if shaco is getting this close to you that easily

I have seen good shaco players in the past (not sure about his current state) but he is never an easy champ to use

His mechanics are simple but his macro and micro managing are off the scale

think about it. He is completely melee ranged except for his E, His W has about a 3 second activation time, His Q shows that he used it even from bush

and I am sure there are several other things about his kit that I have forgotten or not kept up with

DurzakaFeb 25, 20187 votes

Thats a load of horse shit.

Of the champions right now with similar pick rate to Shaco (in plat+), 23 out of 36 of them have subpar win rates (45-48%), and only 5 of them have really high win rates (53-54%).

And guess what? What ones with really high win rates are not just because of OTP. Its because they are fucking strong still, but people dont play them. Like Draven, or Aurelion Sol.

NemeBroFeb 25, 201812 votes

{quoted}

look at most champs with low fukin pick rate .. they all got 51-55% win rate .. its because only OTP's are playing it .. fukin hell use ur brain..

ivern 53%, quinn 55%, aatrox 53%, kind 54%, olaf 53%, sol 55%, kayle 51%, draven 55%, udyr 55%,

now look at shaco when he had 2% pick rate .. he was at 55% win rate .. now he's at 3.20% pick rate .. and his win rate dropped to 52% !!

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Shaco/

Over 5% pick rate isn't low, 53%+ win rate in diamond+.

Stop shitposting.

NaymlissFeb 25, 201821 votes

HOLD UP

Let's go ahead and take a look here. Shaco- 53.3% winrate, 2.71% pickrate(http://na.op.gg/champion/shaco/statistics/jungle) QUINN- 55.56% Winrate, 0.58% PICKRATE(http://na.op.gg/champion/quinn/statistics/top)

That's almost a 5x higher pickrate of shaco players over quinn players. Shaco's playrate isn't that small, it's a more average small.

Let's look at my favorite top laner, aatrox- 52.8% winrate, 1.35% pickrate(http://na.op.gg/champion/aatrox/statistics/top). Shaco, while having double the pickrate, also manages to have a higher winrate than him. Also, aatrox isn't even close to the least picked top laner, he's 38th/50. So, by your logic, since there are less people playing aatrox, there are more mains playing him, so his winrate should be higher than shaco's? Shouldn't Quinn's?

No. Quinn's winrate is more of an issue with sample size than anything. Her pickrate literally just got high enough to be registered in OP.GG, she's been sitting at a 50% for the whole season so far(mouse over to the trends tab on op.gg)

Mind you, i'm not saying buff aatrox or quinn, I think they're both fine right now, i'm just pointing out how shaco doesn't have a "low pick rate" when compared to others.

AkoyPinoyFeb 25, 20187 votes

I could make the same argument.

Kled - 54.56% wr, 2.72% pr http://na.op.gg/champion/kled/statistics/top

Udyr - 54.5% wr, 2.35% pr http://na.op.gg/champion/udyr/statistics/jungle

Rek' Sai - 55.4% wr, 4.33% pr http://na.op.gg/champion/reksai/statistics/jungle

These champions, with either the similar or higher pick rate, get win rates that are higher. I am not saying that these champions are broken, in fact they are fine, which further proves that win rate does not (always) correlate with champion strength.

Tomoe GozenFeb 25, 20189 votes

Shaco doesn't really have a fine kit. Shaco abuses his power as a stealth champion.

Andrey0345Feb 25, 201812 votes

No.

He abuses item 3147 . Nothing else.

AkoyPinoyFeb 25, 201810 votes

Most of us don't want buffs? Go look at the subreddit and see for yourself. People are complaining due to the fact that Riot implied all AD assassins are getting some sort of compensation from the Duskblade nerfs except for Shaco. Added on to this, Meddler himself even said that they are looking to nerf Shaco (on top of Duskblade). You yourself say that Shaco is in a balanced spot right now, so why not give him compensation for the incoming Duskblade nerf?

Also, winrate is not an entirely reliable argument considering Shaco has less players than Rek' Sai or Warwick yet they have a higher winrate. You could also look at the fact that Kha Zix (Who can run around invisible for half the map with enough movement speed, which is a part of his core build), who has a similar winrate and 8x Shaco's pickrate, is getting compensatory buffs.

A big problem with people on the forums are that they always complain about winrate, yet never look into the other factors that determine a champion's strength.

I would also like to remind you that a majority of this meta's junglers already get the sweeping lens (regardless if there is a Shaco or not) and it has been that way for the past season.

Source: http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics (filter winrate and jungle on the right hand side)

T4underboltFeb 25, 20182 votes

Problem with shaco is he has true invisibility on low cd. He comes out of nowhere and takes most of your hp with an auto attack and nothing can save you from it. Even pink ward.

AkoyPinoyFeb 25, 20186 votes

I agree, but to be fair, a lot of that damage comes from items. If you look at Shaco's scalings, the damage is not even from the champion itself. Even if shaco had 350 AD, he would backstab you and deal 420 raw damage (And this is without factoring in armor, such as ninja tabis or guardian angel, which ADCs build commonly). A lot of the damage that gets added on to that are from items like Duskblade, IE/Shiv combo, Titanic/Ravenous active, etc.

Shaco has received nerf after nerf on his abilities, forcing him to abuse certain items/combos in order to do well. Now that they are releasing the nerf for Duskblade, every aspect of this champion has been brought down. And not giving him anything to compensate for that loss is just unfair. A lot of people would argue that Shaco is quite balanced in his current state (OP said so himself) and indirectly nerfing Shaco just doesn't make sense while champions that can do the same job just as well or even better are compensated.

Also, Shaco's invisibility is so weak early on that it's pretty much just a blink. If you want more utility, you max Q yet lose all damage from your main damage ability. Meanwhile, maxing E makes Shaco's q a mere blink. Being conditioned to have both makes Shaco have a very strong late game but in a meta where games end before that, this hurts so much.

BigBonedCartmanFeb 24, 20189 votes

if shaco is a toxic champion what janna is?

SwiftKitten88Feb 24, 201814 votes

{quoted}

if shaco is a toxic champion what janna is?

i said he is the MOST toxic.. not the ONLY toxic...

there are a hell of a lot of other toxic kits.

Janna and TahmKench are worse to face than Lulu or Thresh are.

the thing is toxic kits dont stop being toxic because they have counterplay... shaco for example HAS counterplay.

a toxic kit is toxic as long as they keep the kit toxic.. other champ are are a pain to face because they are op or lack counterplay.

for example a champ that is toxic because they LACK proper counter-play would be Yasuo but take something as simple as the knockup on his dash OR increase of letting him dash through enemy minions make his dash though his own.. and he would be MUCH easier to deal with.

RainbowIceeFeb 25, 20184 votes

{quoted}

i said he is the MOST toxic.. not the ONLY toxic...

there are a hell of a lot of other toxic kits.

and are worse to face than or are.

the thing is toxic kits dont stop being toxic because they have counterplay... shaco for example HAS counterplay.

a toxic kit is toxic as long as they keep the kit toxic.. other champ are are a pain to face because they are op or lack counterplay.

for example a champ that is toxic because they LACK proper counter-play would be but take something as simple as the knockup on his dash OR increase of letting him dash through enemy minions make his dash though his own.. and he would be MUCH easier to deal with.

you underestimate the shitfest that is Lulu to deal with, but yea those champions are all cancer. Janna is only felt worse because she is very easy to pull off without putting her in effective danger. At least lulu has to get in danger range to polymorph but then her whole kit is a truck load of peels and condemn to an enemy

Hextech OwIFeb 25, 201810 votes

I'd rather deal with Janna than with Lulu tbh

TerozuFeb 25, 20186 votes

Yeah Janna may be able to knock me up with a highly telegraphed q occasionally, but that point and click squirrelly thing, no thanks.

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 25, 201825 votes

{quoted}

if shaco is a toxic champion what janna is?

Literally who mentioned Janna? What does Janna even have to do with Shaco?

Their kits are so independently different lmao.

Zed geniusFeb 25, 20188 votes

I don't think people want shaco buffs, they want him to stay as he is because meddler said that they are nerfing duskblade which is core on him and he wants to nerf him even more for w/e reason. Yes the winrate is really good but he has a low playrate so it doesn't mean as much as people make it seem. It's just that a rioter lost a game to a shaco and wants him nerfed prolly

TormentulaFeb 25, 20187 votes

I don't think anybody wants shaco to be buffed..

Most players just want him changed or reverted to pre-preseason 7 update. A lot of shaco players dislike the way he feels in comparison to old shaco, much like how rengar mains disliked the Q change. Not because it was bad, it just felt bad.

SpaghettiVaseFeb 25, 20184 votes

I really don't think that the complaints about shaco are stemming from him being "weak." It's not that shaco sucks and can't win games, its that shaco is an assassin and is reliant and so many things like duskblade and shiv for actually being able to assassinate people. With duskblade seeing nerfs coming, if shaco gets no compensation buffs he's no longer an assassin, he'll just be a very squishy nuisance with his invisibility and his boxes.

TeCoolMageFeb 25, 20184 votes

Well there are always the sona mains...

GrReaper96Feb 25, 20184 votes

I only see poeple asking for his clone to be able to emote.....

Ready 2 B BlamedFeb 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I only see poeple asking for his clone to be able to emote.....

This is also pretty damn high on the bucket list, yes. I'd love that very much.

Pika FoxFeb 25, 20183 votes

Clealy you werent around for the first major support nerf and the cries of the janna and sona mains....

LUXANNA HOSHIDOFeb 25, 20182 votes

i miss my sona freelo :/

Daedric EtwahlFeb 25, 201810 votes

I miss having an actual lane phase, really. Like the game plan as Sona half the time is just don't interact, which is super unfun. I wouldnt mind taking a small bit of scaling taken away in exchange for something in lane phase.

Zach xDFeb 25, 20183 votes

Winrate is a comprehensive reflection on how balanced a champion is.

Ryze is a highly contested pick in pro play.

Pick one.

ProfirixFeb 26, 20183 votes

Actually, I think Shaco suffers from a similar skew as Aurelion Sol. They have an extremely small but dedicated player base, which in turn are VERY, VERY masterful with the champion. The only reason their win rate is so high is because the sample size is far too small for statistics to be reliable. If the average playerbase were to pick up these champions and play them, I can promise you the win rate will drop significantly unless they put as much time and dedication into that champion (most of these players are dedicated solely to that champion).

From a gameplay perspective, regardless of whether they need buffs or not, these champions need to be addressed so that they appeal to a broader player-base.