The fact that the tank meta made zed less of a good pick, didn't change the fact that his laning phase is BS. He can spam all day, buy sustain so you go oom, nearly impossible to 1v1, while having a good mid game too. His late is only bad because he is extremely retaliant on his ult to do damage, but he can end the game easily before late game hits. So, why you guys insist in not nerf him?
RiotRiotRepertoir14 votesSo, why you guys insist in not nerf him?
I don't really think it's fair to say that we insist on not nerfing him. We may not be in the process of nerfing him at the moment, but he certainly hasn't been impervious to the nerfbat in the past.
Troy24262121 votesI don't really think it's fair to say that we insist on not nerfing him. We may not be in the process of nerfing him at the moment, but he certainly hasn't been impervious to the nerfbat in the past.
YossarianSensei4 votesThe difference is Eve has a 1 dimensional kit that's not easily balanced. Either her numbers are too high or she's in the trash bin.
Troy2426213 votesThe difference is Eve has a 1 dimensional kit that's not easily balanced. Either her numbers are too high or she's in the trash bin.
It was a joke :s.
Desiderium4 votesIf anything, the fact that Eve's kit is one dimensional makes it significantly harder to properly balance than Zed.
DropFill9 votesI don't really think it's fair to say that we insist on not nerfing him. We may not be in the process of nerfing him at the moment, but he certainly hasn't been impervious to the nerfbat in the past.
Humm, as much as I like you, zed was never hit by the nerfbat, only love taps Reduced AS and delay on his ult were nerfs to things he SHOULDN'T be good at. Godlike laning phase is something he shouldn't have too.
RiotRiotRepertoir9 votesThat's fair. I don't really feel like Zed is immune to being nerfed, but it sounds like many do. I do agree that Zed's laning phase is probably too easy.
SwapShadows7 votesThat's fair. I don't really feel like Zed is immune to being nerfed, but it sounds like many do. I do agree that Zed's laning phase is probably too easy.
his laning phase is good but that makes up for his terrible late game and pretty lackluster snowballing.
The thing about zed is that any non zed player will insist he is a easy champion to play whilst also having 0 games on zed and being in low elo. (no offence but in low elo any assassin will dominate, it's proven due to what smurfs usually play)
Zed has basically the most counters in the game, playing Zed against competent players is so fustrating because you almost have no one to ult at certain points of the game and he has the worst snowballing out of any assassin.
If talon gets fed he instakills anything while zed actually gives you a chance to negate his ultimate with many items, abilities and summoners in the game.
Minrog6 votesYou don't get 100% pick/ban in pro play for more than a year without there being something wrong.
He has two summoners that will negate him in a team fight 
. There are three items 
with the guardian being a very rare late game pickup.
Punishing his 1v5 dives through the jump timer has provided some counterplay post laning phase. During the laning phase he still benefits from energy instead of mana and being able to give over the blue buff to someone else on his team. It's only after the carries can afford the second or third item purchase that he starts to fall off.
IcyPepper2 votesand being able to give over the blue buff to someone else on his team.
Surprisingly enough, he's not that bad with blue buff. Energy champions do benefit from it, and someone with poke like Zed would probably make laning even more hellish.
But if he's being played by a more selfless (or sensible?) player, a mana user top, a caster ADC, maybe the occasional AP support, or a jungler who could benefit from more jungle gold would appreciate the blue buff.
AMYS GRAVE1 votesdoes blue buff up his energy regen or is it good just for the CDR?
IcyPepper2 votes"This unit regens 25 flat mana regeneration per 5 seconds and 0.5% of their maximum mana (or energy) per second and has 10% cooldown reduction on their abilities. If slain, this buff transfers to the killer."
Apparently both.
I've read somewhere that energy also gets 5 flat energy regen on top of that (since 25 would be broken, so effectively you're getting 6 extra energy per second meaning your energy regen is now 16 energy per second up from a base of 10).
I'm really not sure if that's 100% accurate, I suggest opening up a quick custom match and grabbing Akali or Zed or whatever. But hey, 10% cooldown reduction is still nice.
LankPants3 votesIf talon gets fed he instakills anything while zed actually gives you a chance to negate his ultimate with many items, abilities and summoners in the game.
Contrary to popular belief Zonya's fucks over Talon fairly hard too. He's also quite weak to pinks and sweepers.
lB2kGRlc8y2 votesI don't know why people are insistent on bringing up talon as a foil for zed. Talon is everything an assassin should be, conservative due to a mana cost, all-in risky dives that damn him if he fails, and above all and a non-oppressive lane phase for his lane opponent. Back when he had a silence on his blinkstrike he was busted as fuck, but right now I'd say he's the only assassin i can't find any toxicity in. Saying Zed doesn't contribute to a team fight is ignoring his safe poke which can soften up targets or dissuade the enemy from all-inning. The reason Zed split pushes is not the same reason trynd and nasus do, Zed can contribute in a teamfight, he just has so much safety and opportunity to win duels that he can fill that role as well.
Desiderium4 votesHis laning phase isn't "easy." It entirely depends on how he uses his W. If he uses it to push and harass, and his opponent is playing defensively, then he is massively prone to ganks. He is a 1v1 champion; there is no reason to complain if you let him get you low AND get hit by his skillshot and melee range spells to death without first being able to buy the big-ticket items that hardcounter him or at least having the mechanics or maneuverability to avoid his skillshots and get out of his melee range spell and autoattacks.
His laning phase isn't (and never has been) an outlying issue with this champion. No part of him has been a huge balance issue. Not his damage, not his mobility, nothing. And it's because he is so beautifully well crafted. His damage depends on skillshots and melee range; his mobility depends on his harass AND his escape. He is probably the best designed champion in the entire game in terms of fairness and reasons for having his power. Yet, he gets nerfed over and over despite being balanced. Heck, you can look up an old Meddler post yourself. I dare you. In it, he states that the 1 second nerf to Zed's ult isn't because of his power level; it was a philosophical change. Of course, all it REALLY did was make it extremely infuriating to get hit by random Ezreal ults or an Orianna ult that you can't get out of, (things you would otherwise be able to dodge if it wasn't for the artificial handicap in the form of the coodlown) but you still get my point: it wasn't a nerf based on power, it was a nerf based on philosophy, and Meddler said it himself. This is simply because balanced champions are not immune to nerfs OR buffs, because sometimes it's based on principle rather than power level.
Principle changes are rather unwelcome, for many reasons that I probably shouldn't get into right now as it would derail the thread, but I'm sure you can imagine a few reasons why nerfing and buffing based on philosophy rather than power level isn't always a good idea.
On that note, I know that you said in my thread about Zed (that you didn't even continue responding to after I clarified what I wanted to talk about, gee thanks Repertoir...) that you aren't exactly a "Zed expert." I am a Zed expert, and I'm not biased, because I've mained multiple champs and I've been playing this game for quite a few years now, so my opinions actually mean quite a bit. So I just ask that you trust me when I say, no, his lane phase is not "too easy." His laning phase is massively dependent on the way in which he uses his W in accordance with the behavior of his enemy laner.
I know you don't like to make long posts; instead, you prefer to hop into a thread, ask a question like "what do you guys think should happen", and then never reply again, leaving people with a hollow smile on their face. But I wasn't about to let your idea of Zed having a "too easy lane phase" go unanswered. Therefore I will not be surprised if you don't respond. I'm satisfied if you even read this far, because at least I managed to give some helpful advice about getting better to a fellow League player. Because at the end of the day, that's what you, and all Rioters are: fellow League players. And you deserve to be taught the game and the nuances of champions just like everybody else. Don't you ever forget that.
SwapShadows5 votes[{quoted}](name=Tomb of Insomnia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z1yJZpAB,comment-id=0000000100000001,timestamp=2015-08-16T07:15:12.850+0000)
His laning phase isn't "easy." It entirely depends on how he uses his W. If he uses it to push and harass, and his opponent is playing defensively, then he is massively prone to ganks. He is a 1v1 champion; there is no reason to complain if you let him get you low AND get hit by his skillshot and melee range spells to death without first being able to buy the big-ticket items that hardcounter him.
His laning phase isn't (and never has been) an outlying issue with this champion. No part of him has been a huge balance issue. Not his damage, not his mobility, nothing. And it's because he is so beautifully well crafted. His damage depends on skillshots and melee range; his mobility depends on his harass AND his escape. He is probably the best designed champion in the entire game in terms of fairness and reasons for having his power. Yet, he gets nerfed over and over despite being balanced. Heck, you can look up an old Meddler post yourself. I dare you. In it, he states that the 1 second nerf to Zed's ult isn't because of his power level; it was a philosophical change. Of course, all it REALLY did was make it extremely infuriating to get hit by random Ezreal ults or an Orianna ult that you can't get out of, (things you would otherwise be able to dodge if it wasn't for the artificial handicap in the form of the coodlown) but you still get my point: it wasn't a nerf based on power, it was a nerf based on philosophy, and Meddler said it himself. This is simply because balanced champions are not immune to nerfs OR buffs, because sometimes it's based on principle rather than power level.
Principle changes are rather unwelcome, for many reasons that I probably shouldn't get into right now as it would derail the thread, but I'm sure you can imagine a few reasons why nerfing and buffing based on philosophy rather than power level isn't always a good idea.
On that note, I know that you said in my thread about Zed (that you didn't even continue responding to after I clarified what I wanted to talk about, gee thanks Repertoir...) that you aren't exactly a "Zed expert." I am a Zed expert, and I'm not biased, because I've mained multiple champs and I've been playing this game for quite a few years now, so my opinions actually mean quite a bit. So I just ask that you trust me when I say, no, his lane phase is not "too easy." His laning phase is massively dependent on the way in which he uses his W in accordance with the behavior of his enemy laner.
Right? I think the issue here is that a lot of people just dislike assassins but in reality Zed is the most fare and well balanced Assassin in the game.
Akali and talon don't give you that counterplay zed does, both zhonyas and QSS are extremely cheap and can be bought right after laning phase ends pretty much.
His laning phase is clearly one of the best parts about zed but just like you said it is mainly due to how you use W and how your opponents react to it.
D1rtFarmer4 votes[{quoted}](name=Tomb of Insomnia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z1yJZpAB,comment-id=0000000100000001,timestamp=2015-08-16T07:15:12.850+0000)
His laning phase isn't "easy." It entirely depends on how he uses his W. If he uses it to push and harass, and his opponent is playing defensively, then he is massively prone to ganks. He is a 1v1 champion; there is no reason to complain if you let him get you low AND get hit by his skillshot and melee range spells to death without first being able to buy the big-ticket items that hardcounter him or at least having the mechanics or maneuverability to avoid his skillshots and get out of his melee range spell and autoattacks.
His laning phase isn't (and never has been) an outlying issue with this champion. No part of him has been a huge balance issue. Not his damage, not his mobility, nothing. And it's because he is so beautifully well crafted. His damage depends on skillshots and melee range; his mobility depends on his harass AND his escape. He is probably the best designed champion in the entire game in terms of fairness and reasons for having his power. Yet, he gets nerfed over and over despite being balanced. Heck, you can look up an old Meddler post yourself. I dare you. In it, he states that the 1 second nerf to Zed's ult isn't because of his power level; it was a philosophical change. Of course, all it REALLY did was make it extremely infuriating to get hit by random Ezreal ults or an Orianna ult that you can't get out of, (things you would otherwise be able to dodge if it wasn't for the artificial handicap in the form of the coodlown) but you still get my point: it wasn't a nerf based on power, it was a nerf based on philosophy, and Meddler said it himself. This is simply because balanced champions are not immune to nerfs OR buffs, because sometimes it's based on principle rather than power level.
Principle changes are rather unwelcome, for many reasons that I probably shouldn't get into right now as it would derail the thread, but I'm sure you can imagine a few reasons why nerfing and buffing based on philosophy rather than power level isn't always a good idea.
On that note, I know that you said in my thread about Zed (that you didn't even continue responding to after I clarified what I wanted to talk about, gee thanks Repertoir...) that you aren't exactly a "Zed expert." I am a Zed expert, and I'm not biased, because I've mained multiple champs and I've been playing this game for quite a few years now, so my opinions actually mean quite a bit. So I just ask that you trust me when I say, no, his lane phase is not "too easy." His laning phase is massively dependent on the way in which he uses his W in accordance with the behavior of his enemy laner.
I know you don't like to make long posts; instead, you prefer to hop into a thread, ask a question like "what do you guys think should happen", and then never reply again, leaving people with a hollow smile on their face. But I wasn't about to let your idea of Zed having a "too easy lane phase" go unanswered. Therefore I will not be surprised if you don't respond. I'm satisfied if you even read this far, because at least I managed to give some helpful advice about getting better to a fellow League player. Because at the end of the day, that's what you, and all Rioters are: fellow League players. And you deserve to be taught the game and the nuances of champions just like everybody else. Don't you ever forget that.
then why did 90% of Zeds laugh and taunt all game... ive only seen that done on op champs that were easy.
Nameless Voice1 votesAre these guys OP and easy, though?
Must laugh at all times, mandatory
Need to taunt and laugh when not actively doing anything more useful.
insaiyanbacca1 votes
taunt spam is mandatory, so now your gonna tell me he's op?
Flying Buntcake2 votesYes, because getting a free harass that scales WELL with AD and having basically no cost is "balanced". And also, no. No self-respecting zed "main" ever gets caught by ganks because of his easy escape on w.
VeryGreen2 votes[{quoted}](name=Tomb of Insomnia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z1yJZpAB,comment-id=0000000100000001,timestamp=2015-08-16T07:15:12.850+0000)
His laning phase isn't "easy." It entirely depends on how he uses his W. If he uses it to push and harass, and his opponent is playing defensively, then he is massively prone to ganks. He is a 1v1 champion; there is no reason to complain if you let him get you low AND get hit by his skillshot and melee range spells to death without first being able to buy the big-ticket items that hardcounter him or at least having the mechanics or maneuverability to avoid his skillshots and get out of his melee range spell and autoattacks.
His laning phase isn't (and never has been) an outlying issue with this champion. No part of him has been a huge balance issue. Not his damage, not his mobility, nothing. And it's because he is so beautifully well crafted. His damage depends on skillshots and melee range; his mobility depends on his harass AND his escape. He is probably the best designed champion in the entire game in terms of fairness and reasons for having his power. Yet, he gets nerfed over and over despite being balanced. Heck, you can look up an old Meddler post yourself. I dare you. In it, he states that the 1 second nerf to Zed's ult isn't because of his power level; it was a philosophical change. Of course, all it REALLY did was make it extremely infuriating to get hit by random Ezreal ults or an Orianna ult that you can't get out of, (things you would otherwise be able to dodge if it wasn't for the artificial handicap in the form of the coodlown) but you still get my point: it wasn't a nerf based on power, it was a nerf based on philosophy, and Meddler said it himself. This is simply because balanced champions are not immune to nerfs OR buffs, because sometimes it's based on principle rather than power level.
Principle changes are rather unwelcome, for many reasons that I probably shouldn't get into right now as it would derail the thread, but I'm sure you can imagine a few reasons why nerfing and buffing based on philosophy rather than power level isn't always a good idea.
On that note, I know that you said in my thread about Zed (that you didn't even continue responding to after I clarified what I wanted to talk about, gee thanks Repertoir...) that you aren't exactly a "Zed expert." I am a Zed expert, and I'm not biased, because I've mained multiple champs and I've been playing this game for quite a few years now, so my opinions actually mean quite a bit. So I just ask that you trust me when I say, no, his lane phase is not "too easy." His laning phase is massively dependent on the way in which he uses his W in accordance with the behavior of his enemy laner.
I know you don't like to make long posts; instead, you prefer to hop into a thread, ask a question like "what do you guys think should happen", and then never reply again, leaving people with a hollow smile on their face. But I wasn't about to let your idea of Zed having a "too easy lane phase" go unanswered. Therefore I will not be surprised if you don't respond. I'm satisfied if you even read this far, because at least I managed to give some helpful advice about getting better to a fellow League player. Because at the end of the day, that's what you, and all Rioters are: fellow League players. And you deserve to be taught the game and the nuances of champions just like everybody else. Don't you ever forget that.
His laning phase is extremely easy. All you have to do is stay back and farm with with your ranged attack. If someone ganks your lane, move your shadow behind you and then switch places with it. How is this hard? You must be a hardcore zed main so you should know that he just doesnt 1v1 champions. It does massive amounts of aoe dmg. His ult is a 1v1 thing, the rest of his kit is not.
J Eevo1 votes[{quoted}](name=Tomb of Insomnia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z1yJZpAB,comment-id=0000000100000001,timestamp=2015-08-16T07:15:12.850+0000)
His laning phase isn't "easy." It entirely depends on how he uses his W. If he uses it to push and harass, and his opponent is playing defensively, then he is massively prone to ganks.
If by massively prone you mean as vulnerable as most other midlaners, maybe even less so because of his effective WQ harras range being higher than most champions harass. His laning phase is too linear and has too many fallback mechanisms (got harrased? farm with W since it outranges most midlaners harass, got pushed under tower? use E and WE to clear and your passive which makes it impossible to miss CS under your turret) he has too many tools that other midlaners lack which makes him a nightmare to play against with one of said midlaners, His numbers aren't really that scary and he would be fine IF we had other champions that also had tools to handle everything like Zed does
darkdill3 votesIf you need a suggestion for nerfing Zed's laning, nerf his base health regeneration. It'd basically be the same thing that happened to Katarina after her HPR got nerfed: poke would stick.
In Zed's case, though, he can safely go for Bilgewater Cutlass as his first buy, and thus the lifesteal and his HPR will make poke attacks meaningless against him. Without the HPR, he'll need to rely more on LS, which means wandering into enemy range more often.
To put it in perspective, whenever I go against Zed as Lux, I could land all the Lucent Singularity hits I want, and he'd just sustain through them all. Unless you also proc Illumination (which is suicide against Zed because he'll ult you), that damage just won't stay, even if he's not going ham on lifestealing.
umbraˉ2 votesThat's fair. I don't really feel like Zed is immune to being nerfed, but it sounds like many do. I do agree that Zed's laning phase is probably too easy.
Ignore these anti-assassin circlejerking sheep please. This is pretty much of what all gameplay and balance is.
AMYS GRAVE1 votesIgnore these anti-assassin circlejerking sheep please. This is pretty much of what all gameplay and balance is.
Maybe there is a reason for that.
Miraweave3 votesI don't really think it's fair to say that we insist on not nerfing him. We may not be in the process of nerfing him at the moment, but he certainly hasn't been impervious to the nerfbat in the past.
What do you think about the idea of moving some of his power from his lane harass and safety to his all-in (especially his non-ultimate all-in).
It's always really bothered me that the unique part of Zed's kit is his shadows mirroring his abilities, yet most Zed players ignore this because he has the damage to kill someone without having to drop W and try to get two hits of Q off. If you reduced the base damage on his Q and significantly buffed the damage he gets from hitting more than one on the same target, you'd make this theme more important while also reducing the "strong manaless harass" aspect of his laning phase that makes him so unfun to play against, and you'd reduce his reliance on his ultimate making him a somewhat more useful champion on the whole since he'd be less hard countered by items like Zhonya's Hourglass.
Thoughts?
AMYS GRAVE5 votesEhhhh, his AS "nerf" and the delay on his ult shadow were not really nerfs.
“Ah you think the nerf bat is your ally? You merely adopted the nerf. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see viability until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me!”
NineTailedMystic2 votesTo be fair, you guys didn't hurt him too bad. A minor AS nerf in an attempt to stop his splitpush potential, and a minor delay on his ult return to give his laners a chance to fight back, (despite most cc having a cast time so you have to be pretty good to cc him) to try and discourage the extremely safe tower dives. Never really touched how he has the safest and easiest lane phase out of all the assassins since he has basically infinite harass and sustain (with a bilgewater/bortk).
(Still love you though Repertoir)
Desiderium2 votesa minor delay on his ult return to give his laners a chance to fight back, (despite most cc having a cast time so you have to be pretty good to cc him)
Heh.
Do tell me what CC spells have a cast time of 1.75 seconds? (1.25 after his incoming buff)
I'll wait.
Or are you oblivious to the fact that you can pre-cast your CC while he's ulting?
Minrog3 votesVeigar E. Just saying.
LankPants3 votesOr are you oblivious to the fact that you can pre-cast your CC while he's ulting?
That's dependent on the spell. Some targeted CC (which should be strong VS Zed) is impossible to land with ping factored in. Things like Ren W and Irelia E come to mind.
NineTailedMystic2 votesI'll use the champion I play as an example, Ahri. So Zed ults me and I know he's always going to end up behind me, so I precast charm behind and, oh look, using my skillshot CC turns me around so precasting charm means he's now on my other side and I no longer have charm.
VeryGreen2 votesI don't really think it's fair to say that we insist on not nerfing him. We may not be in the process of nerfing him at the moment, but he certainly hasn't been impervious to the nerfbat in the past.
It kinda feels like you havent nerfed him in a while. Attack Speed nerf did nothing...and then you made it so it took him 1 Second to return to his shadow after ulting. Then you buffed it to say its only going to take a .5 second wait timer before that. Basically you did nothing.... You've done nothing to actually balance the champion.
Mr Broken Wings6 votesNerfing zed? Seriously? This champion currently is just a worse version of talon, the latest buff to his ult maybe changed that but holy moly, he isnt even "good". His winrate is at 49% and actually I never have seen one dominating after the latest nerfs already. His strong points like free poke because he is manaless wont go away no matter how much you nerf him lol. Why leblancing a champion again? It hurts to read some threads here.
DogIsGod3 votes[deleted]
Nameless Voice4 votesHe has counterplay on one ability, which isn't even the one most people are complaining about. It's also counterplay based on an extremely long-cooldown item or even summoner spell, or on specific champion picks, which isn't really very good counterplay in any case.
A champion who has that much counterplay? How about.... almost every other champion in the game? For example, Lux; her ultimate can be avoided by all of the same things as Zed's can, and it can also be dodged. Or she can be killed while casting it, since she's not untargetable.
Name one single damaging ult that isn't countered by untargetability, damage reduction, healing/shielding. The only extra thing you've listed which works against Zed specifically is Quicksilver Sash.
insaiyanbacca1 votes
ult actually isnt countered by invulnerability cause tethers js
Nameless Voice1 votesIt's countered by Zhonya's if you time it right. Zhonya's just before she activates it - it won't apply to you at all. Zhonya's just before the stun triggers - you won't take the second damage or get stunned, since you are invulnerable.
It isn't countered by invulerability without untargetability (e.g. Kayle) or untargetability without invulnerability (e.g. Vlad) though.
Damadreas1 votesThe fact that the tank meta made zed less of a good pick, didn't change the fact that his laning phase is BS. He can spam all day, buy sustain so you go oom, nearly impossible to 1v1, while having a good mid game too. His late is only bad because he is extremely retaliant on his ult to do damage, but he can end the game easily before late game hits. So, why you guys insist in not nerf him?
This is literally the same type of complaints from the same type of people that fail to do well against a particular champion.
Most Zed players you actually see that don't suck have spent copious amounts of times practicing that champion to achieve what your seeing. So when you take whatever your perceived counter etc into lane against him and fail, that's on you. Has nothing to do with the champion.
Word of advice if you suck like me and want to lane against a Zed, pick Malzahar and get good with him.
UltraSceptile1 votes"god like laning phase"
What are you, smoking crack? Zed's can throw out his combo that does decent damage ONCE every 18 seconds. If that's godlike laning phase, syndra, ahri, anivia, azir are all cancer and should be deleted. Heimer and Cho too. Nidalee too. Every single mage and adc too.
You're basically just saying "i'm fucking trash at this game cuz i get hit by zed's Q every single time he throws it." Same thing really about everyone who claims zed is OP and needs nerfs.