"Vayne...Power wise our take is she's on the border of needing a nerf, but not clearly over it."

Reksee·Mar 27, 2019·50 votes·14,202 views

On the border of needing a nerf, but not clearly over it.

Are you sure about that?

63 Comments

nelogisMar 28, 201953 votes

Of course she is!

The border magically increases the more popular the champ is don't you know that?

Volibear reaches 50.0001% winrate for 3 seconds "REEEEEEEE above the line hotfix nerf NOW!! REEEEE!!"

Singed being picked more than once in a blue moon Riot frothing at the mouth "NEEERF AAAAHHHHKAHÖFDLANFEKAHLSD" starts having a seizure

Riven being broken for months "Writes a 1000 word essay on why she is JUST under the made up magical border so she isn't getting nerfed after all"

GigglesOMar 28, 20195 votes

It’s not even just volibear. Every time any tanky (non-support) champ is viable.

ShahamutMar 28, 20199 votes

Skarner

Anu3isIIMar 28, 20197 votes

Is that Anivia ? Her wings look a bit weird.

GigglesOMar 28, 20191 votes

I actually think that they need to change her just a bit yet. Her pool probably clears minions slightly too well.

Anu3isIIMar 28, 20191 votes

I'm not an expert in the birdie, but if she really clears too well, I could see them nerf it in the early stages and buff her Q as compensation, so that she uses more Mana to farm.

Overall, her clear is kinda balanced by the facts that:

It is available only Post-Level 6
It is Mana demanding, forcing her to at least build one scaling item.
Its range is pretty low. While the area it covers is huge, Anivia has to stay really close to it in order to maintain it, making her vulnerable to flanks and poke.

Overall, if she is problematic, Riot has tons of options to play with.

GigglesOMar 29, 20192 votes

We both are apparently getting downvotes. What I was trying to say is I don’t really think she needs needs just some QoL and very small minion clear nerf.

ShahamutMar 28, 20191 votes

item 3070 Skarner

Anu3isIIMar 28, 20191 votes

To be fair, I used to find this guy really cool when I came to League... until they reworked him again and again and again... I gave up even following what they were changing and I bet this isn't even his final form...

ShahamutMar 29, 20192 votes

I made a huge thread about why his spires need to go, from both a lore and gameplay stand point. Even got a red to read and comment. Havent had any follow up on that comment for 7+months now...

Feels bad

#forgotten

SweedishGunnerMar 28, 20191 votes

Same thing happened with Viktor. He went top and started being a pain abusing Klepto and Iceborn, he wasn't a problem in the mid lane and his numbers were fine there.

One patch later his Q numbers were nerfed whilst the items and runes he was abusing to go top weren't changed. As far as I know he still has a higher winrate being played top than mid. LUL.

3TWarriorMar 29, 20191 votes

well, not quite true, his numbers rose in both lanes and actually started to drop once he was a common enough pick that people had a clue how to play against him in their lane but he was also nerfed due to his increased power

Vladimir took over after viktor left because he can fulfill the same role and has more reliable abilities despite his other weaknesses, yet followed the same trend where once people knew how to play against him, his win rate dropped

RebonackMar 27, 201934 votes

Niche champions having a massive pick rate and solid win rate totally isn't indicative of them being overtuned to the point they aren't niche anymore.

ModAcademy KaynMar 28, 20197 votes

Is she really that niche though? She's always maintained a pretty high pickrate because she's one of those 'gotta get that montage' champions, and it's not like she's that visually/thematically unappealing like monster or Yorick champions. The lowest in pickrate she's ever dropped was 10%, and that's still more than most champions have. Yeah, she's a tank shredder, but she's also a duelist in general due to the nature of her kit.

Daddy AntsMar 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YwBKRB3R,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T06:07:15.319+0000)

Is she really that niche though? She's always maintained a pretty high pickrate because she's one of those 'gotta get that montage' champions, and it's not like she's that visually/thematically unappealing like monster or Yorick champions. The lowest in pickrate she's ever dropped was 10%, and that's still more than most champions have. Yeah, she's a tank shredder, but she's also a duelist in general due to the nature of her kit.

Isn't it time the Moderators start dealing with threads like this?

There's 10+ threads of the same shit every day.

HommeGoujonMar 28, 20194 votes

You're damn right, you've posted the same thing in less than 5 mins. It's past time they do their job.

ModAcademy KaynMar 28, 20195 votes

Unless it's the same person posting the same thing X times within the hour, I'm afraid there's nothing we can do. People have a right to make threads, it's not their fault other people have the same idea. If you think there's something wrong with what they have to say, you're more than welcome to start your own thread tackling whatever issue you see.

MannnyMar 28, 20192 votes

Popularity and viability in a meta are two different things. Vayne isn't always viable in every meta and more often than not if she isnt overtuned shes typically most viably picked in situations where lots of tanks are involved rather than in general situations. Even though she may be popular, that doesn't mean that she isn't niche.

ModAcademy KaynMar 28, 20196 votes

Yeah, I just fail to see what makes her niche. She's one half tank shredder, but the other half duelist who has montage galore of 1v5'ing. You know whose niche? Kog'maw, Mr. Mobility-less Long Range Shredder. Ivern too. I think there's a question to be asked here however.

What Is a niche champion, how do we define that? Is it a champion who you wouldn't pick blind into a team comp? Is it a champion with a identity that is really specific to certain situations? In the case of Vayne, is she niche because she kills tanks better than some ADCs? Almost every ADC can kill tanks, meanwhile Jinx and Twitch can melt entire teams while doing that. Varus and Ashe have massive team utility, and MF and Xayah can set up massive damage on the field. I highly doubt that Vayne's entire character is solely "I kill tanks well".

My opinion, I don't see Vayne as a niche champion, because I think her duelist side overpowers her tank shredder side, and that's what people are arguably picking her up and playing her as. A duelist, not a tank killer. Like I saw someone say in the %True Damage thread, %percent health damage is target agnostic, you'll always do the same percent health no matter the target, which is the design for Fiora. An ideal damage type for a duelist, since it's equally effective against everyone.

MannnyMar 28, 20193 votes

Her duelist capabilities are only now being brought forth as the reason she's overtuned. She was not like this before. Not to say her being a duelist never existed, but it was a much smaller advantage to her kit that was in place so that she could reliably deal with fighters and tanks going in on her since her range was so small compared to the other ADCs. taking a look at how she is now compared to other ADCs who are much more team oriented, she has a much better laning phase and an item build that allows her to duel pretty much anyone.

GigglesOMar 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Her duelist capabilities are only now being brought forth as the reason she's overtuned. She was not like this before. Not to say her being a duelist never existed, but it was a much smaller advantage to her kit that was in place so that she could reliably deal with fighters and tanks going in on her since her range was so small compared to the other ADCs. taking a look at how she is now compared to other ADCs who are much more team oriented, she has a much better laning phase and an item build that allows her to duel pretty much anyone.

The only part that bothers me about her current iteration is I can't fight what I can't see/click/aim at. If you play TF and Ulti Every time she does she goes down fast and hard. There is however no way to play against something you just can't see/click/aim.

SpecterVonBarenMar 29, 20192 votes

Clearly the solution is to bring ADC TF, back into the meta. j/

GigglesOMar 28, 20192 votes

Are monster champs really that unappealing though? You saw the most recent everyone picks Rek’Sai. People only pick what feels most powerful even if they lose with it. That’s why Yasuo and Lee are always popular. They always feel powerful even if you are shit with them.

ModAcademy KaynMar 28, 20192 votes

They historically hold lower playrates, especially if you look at their overtime playrate. I wouldn't count the people who jump onto whatever bandwagon they think is the strongest, because those people aren't interested in the champion themselves.

GigglesOMar 28, 20191 votes

I think its more than that though. When has Lee Sin, Yasuo type champions not felt good to play? They make plays, they are mobile, they have ok defense, they have ok nuke they have ok ok ok ok. They just excel at everything.

Meanwhile you have this clunky rock named malphite that hits R and wins or loses. Even one of the more popular monsters Maoaki they reworked multiple times just because he was too powerful and super popular. He is never in a spot where he just feels great to play for very long.

Personally I just think raw power brings more players than champion looks ever will, and that could very well be an opinion. I would just love it for a monster champion to be flashy like all the other popular champs just so that we can see if it really is the looks or if it is simply game balance. I know I personally care more about how a champion plays than looks.

Sexy Jack RabbitMar 29, 20191 votes

I always find it funny when people bring this up.

Riot has stated that monster champs aren't played often in defense of more human champions. But fail to point out that monster champions have always either been A) Poorly Balanced B) Incredibly outdated.

As otherwise they are actually ARE popular and DO perform well in playrate. Yet people choose to ignorantly ignore that. I'd be genuinely amused if someone could point out a monster champion that has not fallen into either of those 2 factors. Yorick and Urgot are not even unpopular champions now post updates and the same goes for Rek'sai now that Riot has decided to put effort into balancing her. (Also pre-rework Rek'sai was a consistently popular pick).

It's also funny considering Yordles are consistenly more UNPOPULAR (Save for Tristana) then a majority of monster champions.

ModAcademy KaynMar 29, 20191 votes

Well, Yordles are kinda in the same camp as monsters, a character that isn't the typical human. What you need to look for is the average playrate, and look at whatever comes inbetween spikes (Typically when they become more powerful). I'd also care to remind you, that both Yorick and Urgot are nowhere close to their original 'monsters' they were before they were reworked. Urgot, much more human than the monstrosity of science we had before.

You need to keep in mind this: Popularity and Pickrate are two different things. We all know the crowd who jumps onto whatever champion is the strongest, because they want to win. Look at the mains, look at the people playing the champion when they're the weakest. This is the true indicator of how much a champion appeals to them, that they'll play them while they're weak. Because they like the champion, not their strength.

That's not always the case, especially in terms of extreme gutting, but it's the easiest to see. It's even funnier when you look at Various champions pickrates over time, some almost look abusive, like Syndra's pickrate stemming up to 15% but averagely lying around 3%.

Sexy Jack RabbitMar 29, 20191 votes

TBF I only included Yorick and Urgot because everyone else does. Yorick IMO is a little more human then monster but still fits the bill enough for people to frequently include him v0v

I also did acknowledge Playrate and Popularity were two different things when I said

As otherwise they are actually ARE popular and DO perform well in playrate.

As opposed to just lumping them as the same thing.

I think personally Yordles lack of popularity stems from the fact that beyond the rare occassional case Yordles only appeal is that they're 'cute' and at times 'serious but still cute' like Omega Squad. And as a result what the community is left with is a group of champions that have frankly little appeal AND little too relate with.

RebonackMar 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YwBKRB3R,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T06:07:15.319+0000)

Is she really that niche though? She's always maintained a pretty high pickrate because she's one of those 'gotta get that montage' champions, and it's not like she's that visually/thematically unappealing like monster or Yorick champions. The lowest in pickrate she's ever dropped was 10%, and that's still more than most champions have. Yeah, she's a tank shredder, but she's also a duelist in general due to the nature of her kit.

I believe we're coming to the term niche from different directions. Allow me to clarify my position.

When I say 'niche' I don't mean 'low pick rate'.

When I say 'niche' I mean a kit is relatively specialized.

Vayne specializes in being a dualist marksmen, SPECIFICALLY a dualist marksmen well adapted at destroying the enemy front-line. She works best against low to moderately mobile opponents packing high resistance values. She pays for this by being completely lacking in any sort of range extension or poke.

Basically, she murders juggernauts and fighters and makes things hard for Tanks provided she avoids their opening CC rotation.

That's a very specialized kit. As opposed to a generalist kit like Jinx who has gameplay that revolves around '5-man rolling murderball'.

Vayne has a very high pick rate because people enjoy her proactive, flashy game play. And since her pick rate is so high, she's often chosen into team compositions where her niche kit doesn't perform as well. This drives her win rate down. Thus, when Vayne has a relatively high win rate, it suggests that she has been over-tuned to the point that she isn't functioning as a niche pick anymore. She's functioning as a generalist.

And when a niche pick, hard-counter champion is over-tuned to the point that they become a generalist pick they absolutely invalidate the champions that they counter. Kalista did the same thing when she was a generalist pick.

3TWarriorMar 29, 20191 votes

actually, she went to a low pick rate and then after the buffs she rose to 30% currently

she was bad then because she relied on everything every other traditional marksman did but had less tools to use, now she has more tools to use so she is the "best" among them

SpaghettiVaseMar 28, 20198 votes

Vayne holds higher banrates in Eastern servers compared to western. Granted it’s not by much but Vayne is universally hated, you can’t say “oh it’s only an NA problem” like with Yasuo or Riven. No, she is on everyone’s ban list, and yet she still has some of the highest winrates and pickrates globally. I would say that that’s indicative of a massive problem with her, her kit, or/and her build. Of course we all know Riot won’t change anything because the Chinese overlords know asian esports viewers love seeing vayne be a staple pick in the LPL and LCK.

AckelopeMar 28, 20194 votes

I'm getting a bit off-topic here, but while Riven is definitely more of a western problem, Yasuo has a higher banrate in KR than NA. People hate him everywhere, even if he tends to actually win his games less frequently than everyone else's favorite problematic champions of late.

GigglesOMar 28, 20192 votes

The champions designs are kinda flawed. Champions like Yasuo, Lee Sin, Riven don't have clear weaknesses besides just playing poorly. Even when they do play poorly unless you have a godly amount of movement speed they can just leave fights for free.

3TWarriorMar 29, 20191 votes

yasuo has 50% ban rate worldwide average XD

DeusVultMar 29, 20192 votes

The thing is, Vayne isnt a "niche" champion

she was at one point in her time in league, where she was a late game anti-tank menace

but for the last two of so seasons, Vayne has been a viable champ against nearly every other champ in the game (except Draven )

the % true damage does great against tanks, but its not like its lost against squishy targets either, in the mid/late game she kills squishies in 2/3 hits. Not to mention that she used to be considered a "late game champ" but nearly all pros/casters/analyst will tell you that she comes on line at 2 items item 3153 item 3124 which is even before many crit builds.

Vlada CutMar 29, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The thing is, Vayne isnt a "niche" champion

she was at one point in her time in league, where she was a late game anti-tank menace

but for the last two of so seasons, Vayne has been a viable champ against nearly every other champ in the game (except )

the % true damage does great against tanks, but its not like its lost against squishy targets either, in the mid/late game she kills squishies in 2/3 hits. Not to mention that she used to be considered a "late game champ" but nearly all pros/casters/analyst will tell you that she comes on line at 2 items which is even before many crit builds.

Ads crit after Vayne's core Histeric laughter

TobykachuMar 27, 201910 votes

Difficult champions having a pick and win rate this high is totally okay! I'm sure everyone who is currently playing Vayne and contributing to that win rate is totally a Vayne mechanical God!

GigglesOMar 28, 20194 votes

Meanwhile actually one tricked champs like Morde live in the gutter in terms of winrate.

MordepoolMar 28, 201910 votes

She needs a solid knee capping

Sir SaltarinMar 28, 20191 votes

[deleted]

OHminusMar 28, 20191 votes

Man, I think you need to chill a little bit everytime someone says "nerf adcs". We get you're an AD main but if you keep this up you'll get another suspension from the boards...

Sir SaltarinMar 28, 20191 votes

highly doubt

limebusterMar 28, 20193 votes

i think rageblade is the issue with her, proccing her w every 2 auto's is a lot

NaramielMar 28, 20193 votes

{quoted}

i think rageblade is the issue with her, proccing her w every 2 auto's is a lot

Rageblade is an issue with literally every 3-hit champion. It's just a problematic effect, since the item is designed to be useful on a certain category of champions, and then ALSO has a huge boost added on for 3-hit champions only.

iamthegoatofwarMar 28, 20191 votes

I'd say lump yi and MAYBE shyv in there too. While not 3 hit like vayne or jax they abuse it too.

Weiner the PoohMar 29, 20191 votes

Phantom hit is toxic, its caused every item it was previously on to get removed, so the devs thought it would somehow be healthy... re-implement it, makes sense.

MarshallpKqTcMar 28, 20191 votes

To be fair, ezreals worse then her

AckelopeMar 28, 20191 votes

what makes you come to that conclusion?

MarshallpKqTcMar 28, 20191 votes

hes sleeper op, how people havent realised it is beyond me, he is literally worse then her and my 100% ban pcik everytime, cba explaining why

Sexy Jack RabbitMar 29, 20191 votes

"This champion is super strong but I won't explain why" Lmao since the tear changes ezreal has dropped majorly, he's hardly as problematic as Vayne now.