[Poll] Were Keystones were a mistake? Discussion inside!

HateDaddy··59 votes·4,881 views

People complain that tanks are weak and honestly, I've made it known I strongly disagree. However, I will not deny for a second that keystones have made this game a nightmare to balance and have warped the games balance so many times this season. And much of that is because reliable damage keystones like thunderlords and fervor can give literally anything the ability to do damage while not paying much for it in return.

People talk about tanks dying instantly, again I disagree but let's not forget that for half of this season, tanks were running grasp (which does pretty considerable damage honestly) or thunderlords and were running around killing everything while being incredibly hard to kill.

No matter what meta we are in, and I'd argue we are in a strange state where a little bit of everything is good right now, the amount of reliable damage any class can put out is absurd. And that kind of damage come from all classes is bad for the game, both balance wise and for just the sheer experience. Nobody enjoys playing against a champion that typically builds glass or semi glass and decides they will go full tank and abuse fervor/grasp procs. Nobody likes playing against semi glass or glass champions that build Trinity and tank after that and abuse Trinity procs + fervor. These are a few examples that illustrate my point.

In reality, the issue is this: runes and masteries should not be this game changing/warping. There's enough variables as is to consider when it comes to balancing and when you begin balancing around masteries that will eventually be changed anyway, you further set the game into a state of chaos. The old mastery system was fine, much like the rune system is fine now. Yes its stale but it has to be because otherwise you get this mess.

I urge you to consider removing keystones this coming season and simply go back to a more simplistic mastery system so we aren't spending chunks of a season running the same 2 mastery setups on every class until the next setup is buffed while the old one is being nerfed. And despite all of this and the attempt of making masteries more interesting, in reality the masteries with keystones have just become more boring. That tells you how flawed this idea is.

116 Comments

Ralanr33 votes

Honestly I like the idea of the keystones as they (in theory) allow for more options and decision making at the end of a tree. Unlike previous masteries where it was another big number at the end of them.

The problem with the masteries is that some are just superior to others when it comes to damage. Whichever does the most damage the easiest tends to become the more common and frustrating mastery to deal with.

Take the League of Thunderlords problem. TLD was the strongest damage keystone after the Warlords fix and Deathfire nerfs. Not only that, but it was incredibly versatile in activating its damage. Three hits and BOOM, thunder. Three spells that hit champions, three attacks that hit champions, 2 attacks and a spell, 2 spells and an attack, etc, all of these were combos that would set it off. The mastery was originally built (imo) with combo casting champions in mind, but anyone could benefit from it and do so very well.

Then was have Grasp of the Undying, which is my favorite mastery. It would allow beefy champions who normally lacked damage (also allowed juggernauts) to get some damage from their defensive stats. This and the sustain made low sustain tanks function better in top lane. But with the addition of several factors (mainly a massive damage increase) everyone started building more tanky and grabbed that tank mastery because SoTA isn't good for laning and Bond is more of a support tank mastery.

The sad truth is that people don't care about how they apply their damage. Whether it be DoT, burst, sustain, or whatever. What the majority of people care about when dealing damage is doing the most damage possible. So whatever mastery is strongest at the time (even if it doesn't fit well with their champion) is the one that will be used most often and people will then start crying for nerfs.

Riot wanted to introduce diversity with keystones, but they have proven unable to really work out well. Some masteries are just too good for niche champions, and others (Windspeaker, stormraiders) are just too niche to be considered for the champions that would work best with them.

I've seen Sona and Soraka run both TLD and Windspeakers, but I've seen more TLD than I have windspeakers on the two healing heavy supports. Course this is just my personal experience and I haven't played in a week.

I applaud Riot for trying to add more diversity, but really they just show one of the biggest problems in the community (which in turn can be taken as a problem with the overall balance of their game): Whatever does the most damage/most benefit is going to be abused by the community at large in order to win more.

Because that's what people want. To win by almost any means necessary.

DeathBurst6 votes

Well, at least for Sona, I'm pretty damn convinced that Windspeaker is far better than Thunderlord. Then, if "the community" is stupid enough to prefer damage and play the champ sub-optimally, and if you still get better results with Windspeaker, Riot can't do a lot more things about it.

Ralanr1 votes

{quoted}

Well, at least for Sona, I'm pretty damn convinced that Windspeaker is far better than Thunderlord. Then, if "the community" is stupid enough to prefer damage and play the champ sub-optimally, and if you still get better results with Windspeaker, Riot can't do a lot more things about it.

I'm not even sure we can blame the community for being stupid. A herd moves in the direction the Shepherd points to. Riot isn't the Shepherd, they just own the land. The pros have become unconscious shepherds (by which I mean they do not intend to create the meta, they just try to do the very best they can to win. Since that's their job) while we the playerbase (I.E. the herd) follow their direction because we want what they get: Victory.

At this point it's just nature.

DeathBurst1 votes

Yeah, but for stuff like Sona, not played in pro, there isn't any real shepherd. And IF the game is "actually balanced" (meaning, Windspeaker is indeed better than TLD on Sona, for instance), but the community plays sub-optimally, Riot can't really buff Windspeaker until it's OP.

Dr Poro3 votes

Actually Windspeaker is the most popular but Thunderlords has higher winrate probably because it's only picked in favourable lane matchups thus a more likely win before the game starts and/or might be picked mainly by players who are very familiar with sona and when to pick which keystone.

HateDaddy8 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I like the idea of the keystones as they (in theory) allow for more options and decision making at the end of a tree. Unlike previous masteries where it was another big number at the end of them.

The problem with the masteries is that some are just superior to others when it comes to damage. Whichever does the most damage the easiest tends to become the more common and frustrating mastery to deal with.

Take the League of Thunderlords problem. TLD was the strongest damage keystone after the Warlords fix and Deathfire nerfs. Not only that, but it was incredibly versatile in activating its damage. Three hits and BOOM, thunder. Three spells that hit champions, three attacks that hit champions, 2 attacks and a spell, 2 spells and an attack, etc, all of these were combos that would set it off. The mastery was originally built (imo) with combo casting champions in mind, but anyone could benefit from it and do so very well.

Then was have Grasp of the Undying, which is my favorite mastery. It would allow beefy champions who normally lacked damage (also allowed juggernauts) to get some damage from their defensive stats. This and the sustain made low sustain tanks function better in top lane. But with the addition of several factors (mainly a massive damage increase) everyone started building more tanky and grabbed that tank mastery because SoTA isn't good for laning and Bond is more of a support tank mastery.

The sad truth is that people don't care about how they apply their damage. Whether it be DoT, burst, sustain, or whatever. What the majority of people care about when dealing damage is doing the most damage possible. So whatever mastery is strongest at the time (even if it doesn't fit well with their champion) is the one that will be used most often and people will then start crying for nerfs.

Riot wanted to introduce diversity with keystones, but they have proven unable to really work out well. Some masteries are just too good for niche champions, and others (Windspeaker, stormraiders) are just too niche to be considered for the champions that would work best with them.

I've seen Sona and Soraka run both TLD and Windspeakers, but I've seen more TLD than I have windspeakers on the two healing heavy supports. Course this is just my personal experience and I haven't played in a week.

I applaud Riot for trying to add more diversity, but really they just show one of the biggest problems in the community (which in turn can be taken as a problem with the overall balance of their game): Whatever does the most damage/most benefit is going to be abused by the community at large in order to win more.

Because that's what people want. To win by almost any means necessary.

You can't blame the community or anyone for taking the best course of action to win, which most of the time is also the easiest. The easier and more reliable it is, the more consistent it does therefore the more likely it is to win. I will do whatever it takes to win in ranked games and that branches out even down to how I'll setup runes and masteries accordingly.

I just don't think runes/masteries should have such power. Many items in this game alone have a ton of power and factor in all the kits we have in this game and you begin to see how many variables there are to balance out. Keystones add another layer to an already complex and chaotic system of balance. If items or champion kits were weaker or simpler, I think keystones would be a great addition. But in league of legends, that's simply not just the case. A good example of what I mean is Renekton with fervor. Let him hit you with a full fury W and watch this alone take 70% of your HP in the early game. Much of that has to do with how it stacks fervor and 20% of that damage is probably from fervor alone. The game has too many complexities for something like that to be existing imo.

MunchCrunchLunch9 votes

keystones don't give you a choice the way they are currently. they simply make some champs superior to others.

Avarosa Guide Me1 votes

{quoted}

I've seen Sona and Soraka run both TLD and Windspeakers, but I've seen more TLD than I have windspeakers on the two healing heavy supports. Course this is just my personal experience and I haven't played in a week.

Wait, some sorakas actually will go thunderlords? Why thou, Windspeakers is so much better since raka isn't damage focused in the slightest. I mean, i can understand sona but raka... just, why...

Ralanr1 votes

Honestly it might be because some people don't think on their masteries sometimes.

Weasel Kensei1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly it might be because some people don't think on their masteries sometimes.

Fixed it for you.

People dont think, they watch and see what a streamer did, then copy it, then stop any and all thought processes.

Me and a buddy play this one MOBA called Awesomenauts, and youll see people in premades doing "one trick pony" strategies. We have observed that once that one trick no longer works, they often rage out of the match. See they can only do that one thing they saw some others do, and when it stops working, they stop working, because changing plans is hard, being self sufficient takes experience, and critical thinking takes... thinking.

A man I had shared a journalism course with in college named Paul, said something to me once that changed the way I view the world forever after. He said "Remember Weasel (he used my real name), statistically half the population is below average intelligence."

So Im pretty sure, its just "People dont think."

2nd Chance24 votes

Keystones were a dumb idea that made the game even more stale

Also some are just straight freaking busted on some champs

Qiy4na4 votes

Like Jhin and deathfire touch

notice me Sin pi4 votes

i honestly gave up ranked cuz of Jhin; my win rate against him is like 14%

IceKingChernobog8 votes

[{quoted}](name=2nd Chance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YkoI0my2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-08-14T20:27:42.312+0000)

Keystones were a dumb idea that made the game even more stale

Also some are just straight freaking busted on some champs

Released warlord's on yas and trynd. Never again.

Velzard of Koz2 votes

Yet I am afraid Riot won't do much as they said like five times on various occasions

We are happy with the state of Mastery system right now

Honestly I find it more ridiculous that new Mastery was supposed to be more diverse than the old one yet I feel like they took away a little bit of that diversity

YoungFarmer2 votes

[{quoted}](name=2nd Chance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YkoI0my2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-08-14T20:27:42.312+0000)

Keystones were a dumb idea that made the game even more stale

Also some are just straight freaking busted on some champs

cough Deathfire on jhin cough. nothing like having a keystone do 350 damage to you late game.

Gorzke15 votes

Or maybe have real Tank Keystones? Something non-tank champions couldn't abuse, like...

Your abilities and attacks deal 4(+2 per level)(+10% Bonus Armor)(+10% Bonus MResist)(+1% Bonus HP) to impaled Champions

Upon reaching 30%HP, you gain a Shield that absords 32(+16 per level)(+5% Bonus HP) which lasts 4 seconds. This shield only uses bonus Armor and Mresist. 30 seconds cooldown.

Ralanr18 votes

Having tank masteries scale with resistances instead of health would be a nice way to keep Juggernauts from abusing them.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Or maybe have real Tank Keystones? Something non-tank champions couldn't abuse, like...

Your abilities and attacks deal 4(+2 per level)(+10% Bonus Armor)(+10% Bonus MResist)(+1% Bonus HP) to impaled Champions

Upon reaching 30%HP, you gain a Shield that absords 32(+16 per level)(+5% Bonus HP) which lasts 4 seconds. This shield only uses bonus Armor and Mresist. 30 seconds cooldown.

Why would you add damage to this? I would just run a bruiser and stack resists and do this lol.

There's really no reliable way to prevent one class from using something well from another class. Sure you can add stipulations that would seemingly deter the idea of running that setup for different classes but history has shown that doesn't matter much.

Also, tank masteries would also be the exact same problem as damage masteries except on the opposite end of the spectrum. It wouldn't solve anything, it would just mean at some point we'd have a ridiculous tank meta when this mastery becomes broken because it gets buffed or other keystones get nerfed.

Velzard of Koz4 votes

There's really no reliable way to prevent one class from using something well from another class.

Using =/= Abusing

Automatis15 votes

I don't like keystones because the offensive ones are all blatantly geared for AD champs. AP champs have 2 (and lets be honest DFT is only useful when heavily abused) whereas AD champs have 4 options (despite fervor being fervor).

That's obviously just the start because they're crap across the board. There's too many niche cases where a champ abuses a certain keystone and the whole idea behind "hurr durr choice in mastery" is nullified. Or there were no choices to begin with, I come back to mages who literally only use Thunderlord unless they're DoT humpers.

ReZisT Lust2 votes

i use strormraiders surge on my mages for the repostioning n kitinkg

IA9hRfpP5q13 votes

Riot's attempt to be more complex like Dota2 or SMITE. More Failure.

AcidTheWarlock9 votes

I know this is kind of off topic, but League is more complex then Smite ATM.

Enosetc11 votes

having to wait till level 18 to get the most critical masteries in the game

k riot.

Hello Georgie9 votes

Keystone alone caused the huge increase in damage this season.

PPPPPPPPPPPP2709 votes

Keystones were a mistake. Broke many champions on release will do it again season 7.

SwiftKitten889 votes

its dumb that adc have 3 keystones, where as mages pretty much just have thunderlords, support have the tank or the heal one. top lane has the steal hp... jugnler have the jungle one

you pretty much have 1 choice.. and thats it.. you cant build how you want..

SkyBlade794 votes

yo, the mages definitely have the deathfire keystone too.

Aeszarck2 votes

{quoted}

yo, the mages definitely have the deathfire keystone too.

Mages like Syndra can also go Stormraider's Surge to reposition after a strong ultimate or good combo.

FantasySniper2 votes

Which is only usable on the unpopular Zyra Karthus Anivia Heimerdinger Brand and a select group of AD casters that exploit the hell out of it.

zlumpy7 votes

I liked the old mastery system. The mix and matching felt more unique than it is now. Having an ultimate final thing that is just flat better than trying to min max the middle things is lame. I said the same thing about WoW talent tree when they changed that. It just kills a sense of individuality and sense of self control that we used to have.

Btw I love the tank keystones. Mostly play tanks and I think having a free 300hp item or free on hit lifesteal are awesome early and mid game tanking tools.

TheOvermind7 votes

The keystones were indeed a failure, but there is also a reason people forgot about.

Champions were not balanced around keystones. Soraka was not balanced around w blessing, yasuo and tryndamere were not balanced around warlords and so on and so forth.

In the case of soraka, or janna would they decrease their shields and heals by 10% so that they are forced to take blessing ? That would be counterproductive though. You add a system that allows a champion to be as strong as before. What's the point of it ? Well so that they are not stronger than before . But that shows that the system is flawed and shouldn't have been added in the first place.

Same could be said about Morgana not balanced around her w procing tld or anivias ulti. The keystones basically made those champions spells numerically stronger. or is darius balanced around procing stormraiders every time he dunks someone? Didn't he lose that part of his passive to reinforce his immobile/easy to kite nature ?

Isn't MALPHITE/ yasuo / Ekko designed to not have sustain in their kits ? Why do they get to go to lane with grasp or warlord ( Yasuio) ? Doesn't that make champions with sustain look weaker ? ( maokai, kayle, nasus)

Keystones seem like a great idea on paper but they simply don't work in a game like league of legends where everyone is supposed to have clear strengths and weaknesses or are designed to do certain things or not do others.

Nogrim6 votes

the problem with keystones is that they are as strong as most passive abilities.

they are simply too strong to balance in a reasonable way when they can be taken on any character in combination with their kits.

ProfDrDeath4 votes

The keystones in general are a really nifty concept. They are supposed to be strong effects that have the potential to change the way you play your champion/play against the enemy champion.

The issue is, imo, that a) the defensive mastery tree is comparatively too weak and b) 3 of the damage keystones are too general and c) we are lacking a real defensive keystone.

The issue described in b) relates to the fact that neither Fervor of Battle nor Thunderlord's nor Grasp change anything in the way you need to play your champion - Fervor simply gives your auto-attacks more punch for continously auto-attacking, Thunderlord's adds a really boring damage spike on applying three instances of damage and Grasp rewards you for brawling.

A real defensive keystone could be, for example, a directional shield - think Fiora's passive, but instead of extra damage, it reduces damage coming in from the direction of the effect. It even could be something that works against all damage or only specific damage types...

RK N0va3 votes

I really don't see the point in having it when almost always the same 3 keystones are used in every game. It does not feel like it balances anything, but instead already fuels what is viable. I don't care about things being stale, I want them to be balanced. Adding more variables to the game subsequently increases the chance for imbalance. Simple is better in my opinion.

I can't think of a better paradigm than this: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hv0NuR1zEFQ/UNS6VdRZKFI/AAAAAAAABlU/7dedd5dQs2U/s1600/bamboleo2.jpg

Wimbledofy3 votes

Where's the i don't care option? There should always be one of these for these kinds of threads.

Skias3 votes

{quoted}

Where's the i don't care option? There should always be one of these for these kinds of threads.

Don't vote? There ya go.

Votable Jester6 votes

Not voting doesn't work though. There is actual value in showing how many people don't care one way or the other.

MLDzXnRRR3 votes

Keystones ruined this season along with the poor reworks that had to be nerfed after terrorizing the rift.

manbearswine3 votes

Idea was good, execution was poor.

LionelLeon2 votes

it's kinda dumb that can't get a buff because TLD gives her the damage she's missing, remove them so we can balance champions and not champions and keystones; or just rework it.

Kingdom Corn2 votes

Some keystones need adjustments, if not then complete removal but I think keystones add a lot to the game. Like the feeling of choosing whether I want to go thunder lords on graves or strength of the ages and making a big decision that will affect my play style is pretty cool

metaworldpeace102 votes

Fervor, TLD, DFT and Grasp need some serious work IMO, if not flat out removal. TLD gives unhealthy burst patterns to already bursty champions. Fervor gives free damage, which allows for champions like Yasuo to build mostly tank and pick up this mastery and still have relevant damage. I really think these two keystones need to go.

MonkeyMadness2 votes

Here's what's up: keystones add strategic diversity to the mastery set up. Previously, you would just dump 21 point in offense because it was just better, and literally everyone other than supports ran 21/9/0. This way, you can run much more unique mastery sets depending on your champion and your playstyle. Obviously some champs are much better with certain keystones, but you can adapt somewhat depending on the matchup.

The issue is that riot has simply allowed them to be 110% OVERPOWERED AS FUCK FOR NEARLY A YEAR. There are no tradeoffs in build paths, because you can just get damage from your keystone and build full tank and faseroll people. If riot just sits down for 5 fkin minutes and figures out how to balance the free damage from the keystones (ie make them scale instead of just being free flat damage) they should work fine.

doombotMECHA2 votes

KEYSTONES ARE DAMAGE CREEP. this should be obvious--every1 is doing more damage now. as some1 who would like to build armor and actually FEEL LIKE IT, I oppose keystones.

Seenan2 votes

Keystones like Stormraider's or maybe Warlord's are pretty great concepts and aren't too op compared to Fervor or TLD. Maybe less of Warlord's when it was first released...But Stormraiders and Windseekers, pretty much all the utility and non-burst/stacking damage masteries, are pretty ok. The thing is, Ferver and TLD exist as the strongest masteries/masteries that give unnecessary amounts of damage...A solid 80 extra phys damage per auto at level 18. Part of why Tanksuo is strong.

Fervor's strongest mid-late which is why it has pretty pitiful stacking damage at first. TLD is strong early-mid, which is why it has a higher cd early.

ABSINTHEged2 votes

Hell yes they were a mistake.

There are always going to be champions that abuse them and they're a fairly significant source of hidden power.

So much for clarity.

Morticianjohn1 votes

I do think it's a better system than the other, however, maybe just tweak some of the keystones. Also I think that the lvl 18 and lvl 20 power spikes make the leveling process very poor for newer players. Make the keystones unavailable until level 30 to prevent that huge lvl 18 power spike and create an unfun experience for anyone under level 18 who is facing against those players.

Understand that the game was balanced around the old system and that balancing the keystone masteries is a process.

Keevalroy3 votes

A process that will lead nowhere pleasant. Riot's balance team constantly demonstrated that they didn't have the ability to balance the game as it was in the past, and keystones have added even more variables to balance...do you seriously think they can pull it off? Nothing from their previous work has shown we should be hopeful.

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