@Meddler Buffing tanks is not the solution to high damage/low TTK problem in the game now

Rexxiee·Jul 27, 2018·8 votes·3,120 views

All it does is force every team to have 2/3/4 tanks again and pushes classes like bruisers out of the game.

What we need is a nerf on Squishy to squishy damage, like how assasins just overkill squishies by a large margin meaning they dont even need a completed item to start 100-0ing due to so much free damage they get on runes (like when you see talon having that much kill potential to the point he can actually rush a tiamat and still have enough damage to 100-0).

The IE change was good in that regard as it nerfed the adcs bursting SQUISHIES ppl too fast but then they went the other way around with every other position in the map (which is why adc feels terrible to play now).

So we dont need tank buffs, we need something like higher base armor and mr for every squishy/champ in the game (like how every champ basically had +9 armor and +12 mr at lvl 1 with old runes), so fights arent about just who pulls the trigger first, and some toning down on free damage runes.

34 Comments

OtterlyLostJul 27, 20183 votes

Need a nerf to squishy on squishy damage needs a nerf because Assassins deal too much damage, huh? Now if only there was a class of champions that were intended to counter them. Oh wait, there is but people cried until they were nerfed too. :/

AptestJul 28, 20182 votes

Exempt we the people who sit on that class's slot in champion select, don't want this game play pattern to be obligatory for us.

sure we want to play point defense from time to time, but we want this to be a choice for us, not an obligatory role every game or else punished with a lost game.

RalanrJul 28, 20181 votes

Yet those who do want to feel like they are getting shafted.

AptestJul 28, 20181 votes

you have a point. But it's not about dumpstering point defense champions.

Assassins and other bursty jump on you champions (wukong / irelia / yi etc) are super common picks. If we create a polarized situations where "have point defense champion at the ready? = good game for you. not have? die instantly" for the adc, than champions like pyke, bard, zyra are too risky to blind pick, and generally won't have their niche come up ever because of how the jungle / mid lane situation is right now (always).

As for the recent nerfs to shield frequency, assassins should have exploitable downtime to their skills, and so do supports. And if we need to give lulu a compensation buff somewhere else (like, she was mana gated fairly heavily because she could poke in lane without getting initiated on easily, maybe this can be addressed?), maybe that's the way to go.

OtterlyLostJul 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Exempt we the people who sit on that class's slot in champion select, don't want this game play pattern to be obligatory for us.

sure we want to play point defense from time to time, but we want this to be a choice for us, not an obligatory role every game or else punished with a lost game.

That is literally the job of support. If you dont want to play a "supportive style" then maybe you shouldn't be playing support. Literally all supports are intended to counter Assassins. If you dont want that to be part of your job description, play a mage or tank somewhere else and that can not be your job.

AptestJul 28, 20182 votes

Tell me exactly how pyke or Brand "counter assassins". Or how Sona or Nami do, for that matter.

play a mage or tank somewhere else

The question then becomes: do you want people to choose to play the support role? or do you want to force them vie autofill? If you want them to happily choose the role, than you have to convince them to switch from jungle or mid. By offering these jungle and mid players something they value.

Otherwise, you can be greedy for the game to force someone to be your bodyguard. But that someone is an auto-filled conscript who is not doing the job happily or willingly.

OtterlyLostJul 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Tell me exactly how pyke or Brand "counter assassins". Or how Sona or Nami do, for that matter.

The question then becomes: do you want people to choose to play the support role? or do you want to force them vie autofill? If you want them to happily choose the role, than you have to convince them to switch from jungle or mid. By offering these jungle and mid players something they value.

Otherwise, you can be greedy for the game to force someone to be your bodyguard. But that someone is an auto-filled conscript who is not doing the job happily or willingly.

Both nami and sona have hard cc, Ms buffs, a small shield(aery and sona's heal does have a shield attached to it), heals, one of them literally has a damage reduction on one of their spells(power cord heal actually does lower a persons damage on sona ._.), slows...

How do they not counter assassins?

Brand is not a support. He has never been intended to be a support and it is widely accepted by many parties that he should be reworked and fixed so he cant go into the support position. Because he isn't a support. He's a mage abusing the fact that he has a single stun and insane base damages and % health damage so he doesn't need items to do damage.

Pyke is also a terrible idea that was solely introduced for solo queue and is only doing well right now because other supports are doing poorly. :/ against alistar, leona, nami, janna, lulu or any of the other real, actual supports, he would be terrible.

And I want people to play support, yes. That doesn't mean I want them to go through the motions and pick a second carry bot lane, essentially gimping not only me in lane but the team comp later. People are complaining about damage and really started doing it after all of the utility options(tanks and real supports) got nerfed and destroyed.

I honestly dont understand people's aversion to real supports. No, they dont do damage but what they do instead is just as satisfying. I have support as my secondary and I enjoy it immensely and I usually play champions like tahm kench, nami, sona, lulu, janna, leona, etc. Its fucking hilarious to watch an assassin have to focus you in order to kill your carry instead. Or it is satisfying as all hell when, at the end of a teamfight, you get to the end and it's just you and your carry left standing and you know that the reason that is that you did your job and kept them alive.

No, I want people to play support. I just want them to play REAL supports.

AptestJul 28, 20182 votes

Nami has a hard time countering assassins because her small heal is insufficient to buffer against an assassin's damage, and her kit is mostly dodgable if your kit has a bunch of jumps and hops on it.

Sona has a hard time countering assassins because her heal/shield is insufficient, and her big damage reducer, the power chord of W, requires too much setup to use in a pinch. And her ult is just better used for teamfighting with, if at all possible (as is the case with all AOE CC ults). Also her general build and stats make her a very good target herself.

Some people think that brand should be pushed out of bot lane. But the people who play him bot lane disagree. the "widely accepted" people you refer to simply do not include the majority of brand players nowadays, since brand is 65% support, and only 35% other things. You do not hold the accepted opinion on this.

And I want people to play support, yes. That doesn't mean I want them to go through the motions and pick a second carry bot lane

Its wishful thinking, on your part, to say "I want people to like playing support 'my way'." People are not going to like doing things a certain way, just because you'd very much like them to.

I honestly dont understand people's aversion to real supports. No, they dont do damage but what they do instead is just as satisfying.

I can walk you through some of the reasons. Reactivity VS proactivity. Making plays and leading, VS participating in other people's up plays and following. Dependency on a partner who's incentive is to stay back and commit last. other issues too. there's also some issues with external gratification but these are secondary even though they are very loudly voiced from time to time by people who just lack understanding.

Regardless. Its not within your power, or anyone else's, to re-do the values and power fantasy that people seek within the game. The only viable option is to correctly identify what people actually find "fun", and cater to that.

Some people, like you, like Nami and like Janna. I mained nami myself for half a year. Other people don't. The question is: do you want those other people to queue up as supports from time to time, and to not bitch when they get forced into the role?

It is not reasonable to expect these mid lane and jungle and top lane players to like "the janna experience", sufficiently to not bitch about losing out on "the zed experience". If you want them to like it, you have to make the ice cream in their favorite flavor.

No, I want people to play support. I just want them to play REAL supports.

In that case, you don't have their best interest in your heart, you have your own.

don't be greedy. Play some lucian or Ezreal or Jhin, and let the support roam. Better yet. Start playing quinn, you have no idea how much fun it is to play quinn/bard or quinn/tk and just roam with the support all over the place ganking everything that shows up on the minimap.

OtterlyLostJul 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Nami has a hard time countering assassins because her small heal is insufficient to buffer against an assassin's damage, and her kit is mostly dodgable if your kit has a bunch of jumps and hops on it.

Sona has a hard time countering assassins because her heal/shield is insufficient, and her big damage reducer, the power chord of W, requires too much setup to use in a pinch. And her ult is just better used for teamfighting with, if at all possible (as is the case with all AOE CC ults). Also her general build and stats make her a very good target herself.

Some people think that brand should be pushed out of bot lane. But the people who play him bot lane disagree. the "widely accepted" people you refer to simply do not include the majority of brand players nowadays, since brand is 65% support, and only 35% other things. You do not hold the accepted opinion on this.

Its wishful thinking, on your part, to say "I want people to like playing support 'my way'." People are not going to like doing things a certain way, just because you'd very much like them to.

I can walk you through some of the reasons. Reactivity VS proactivity. Making plays and leading, VS participating in other people's up plays and following. Dependency on a partner who's incentive is to stay back and commit last. other issues too. there's also some issues with external gratification but these are secondary even though they are very loudly voiced from time to time by people who just lack understanding.

Regardless. Its not within your power, or anyone else's, to re-do the values and power fantasy that people seek within the game. The only viable option is to correctly identify what people actually find "fun", and cater to that.

Some people, like you, like Nami and like Janna. I mained nami myself for half a year. Other people don't. The question is: do you want those other people to queue up as supports from time to time, and to not bitch when they get forced into the role?

It is not reasonable to expect these mid lane and jungle and top lane players to like "the janna experience", sufficiently to not bitch about losing out on "the zed experience". If you want them to like it, you have to make the ice cream in their favorite flavor.

In that case, you don't have their best interest in your heart, you have your own.

don't be greedy. Play some lucian or Ezreal or Jhin, and let the support roam. Better yet. Start playing quinn, you have no idea how much fun it is to play quinn/bard or quinn/tk and just roam with the support all over the place ganking everything that shows up on the minimap.

Dont be greedy? That's such a hypocritical answer it hurts. Its greedier for mid and top mains to just flat out ignore the fact that a comp lacks utility peel and go someone like brand or pyke when they're autofilled. It is equally as greedy for support players to ignore team comp to pick no nonsupports as well.

The line of thinking that supports like nami, sona, etc arent play makers as well is also bullshit. If you are playing them passively that is your fault because you're playing them wrong.

Nami, if she is good, can make plays with bubble, ult and e. Also her heal is no insubstantial. It is a long CD and costs a lot of mana but she is fully capable of healing 500-600 health.

As for playing me playing a specific champion so the "support" can roam, that's bullshit and a greedier argument than anything I've said. First and foremost, the support should be good enough to know when they can roam regardless of what ADC is sitting bot lane. That's part of the skill expression of a good support. I shouldn't have to bend over backwards to make it "easier", especially since the only one that would be fine solo for a period of time at a bad roam time is ezreal. He can farm with q and has a free flash. Lucian has a dash but is short ranged and has to walk up to the wave and jhin has no escape abilities, long CDs, and is very easy to dive.

If I get autofilled jungle or top and I see we're full damage, I'm not going to pick an ADC for jungle or top. I'm going to pick a tank so we have some CC and utility. Likewise, when i played organized League with a group of friends, if they needed or wanted to put a carry somewhere other than botside, I would play Ashe to help with utility and to set things up. I hate ashe, I hated playing her every game, but I acknowledged that she was better for my team comp than an ADC I enjoyed.

How about mid and top and jungle people who get autofilled stop being greedy? How about supports stop being greedy? This is, essentially, a meta of greedy because none of the positions that historically filled for the utility side of things is willing to sacrifice and as a result, we're sitting in a very boring, damage oriented meta.

AptestJul 31, 20181 votes

What is greed? it is this approach: "I will play my favorite champion, regardless of situation, and you will pick in a way that complements the team, because i have now created a situation where nobody but you can make our composition work".

TLDR the "OTP meta" is a greedy meta, where few roles are expected to make the team composition, above their share, whereas other roles pick to their heart's content. And usually they pick the same flavor, so the expected roles are pushed always into a specific direction.

But if you reverse this by making a champion like Ivern a priority pick in the jungle, you introduce the following problem: "the best champions, i do not enjoy playing".

What is a solution?

Beatrice fallsJul 27, 20182 votes

Remove all the recent source of true damage added to the game. True damage is given to niche picks in order to counter tank, now any champion can deal true damage.

AirKingNeoJul 27, 20181 votes

except IE and Conqueror are barely used right now in high tiers of play, so why would we remove them?

LankPantsJul 28, 20182 votes

So we dont need tank buffs, we need something like higher base armor and mr for every squishy/champ in the game (like how every champ basically had +9 armor and +12 mr at lvl 1 with old runes), so fights arent about just who pulls the trigger first, and some toning down on free damage runes.

Tanks need buffs mate, the whole class has more or less dropped off the face of the map completely.

Let's just imagine your buffs to squishy champs base defences go through (to be clear I don't disagree with this), then what? Tanks are now even weaker than they are at current because they lose damage VS squishy targets. They're already bad, they'd be utterly abysmal.

sobi999Jul 28, 20182 votes

If squishies lost overall damage, tanks automatically get a buff. However, with the former the advantage is that you are preventing one -shots and adding micro play into the game but with the latter (buffing tanks), the state of the game won't change. All it will do is make tanks necessary in each team composition and whoever has tanks in their team would have an immense advantage. We have seen through the tank meta; was not fun.

Colton147Jul 27, 20181 votes

I agree; revert Ornn 's damage nerfs and give him his Unstoppable back.

redniwediSJul 27, 20183 votes

The damage nerfs were fine, but Unstoppable being removed was a step too far.

AirKingNeoJul 27, 20183 votes

well his damage is still too high right now

redniwediSJul 27, 20182 votes

His damage at what part of the game, and against who?

In lane he feels fine to me, and his damage might actually be a bit low in the later part of the lane phase, particularly against champions with sustain. I normally use him as a counterpick to my main, Garen, in case someone takes him from me in champion select. He can do a lot of damage if he gets ahead, but who can't? If he is even or behind he doesn't feel overbearing to me.

After the lane phase his damage doesn't feel too low, but also doesn't really feel too high. Then again I'm usually playing the role of peeler, so I'm using him against tanks, divers, and assassins, and those latter groups usually get focused down so I don't get a good read on how much of that damage was mine.

AirKingNeoJul 28, 20181 votes

everyone? Ornn can, unironically, beat Darius in a 1v1. His W+auto literally deals 20% of someone's HP.

After laning phase doesn't really matter because he has his massive team fight ult.

Void KaijuJul 28, 20182 votes

his W+auto has a cooldown of what, 16 seconds early? Darius' basic combo often does 20% or MORE of somebody's HP and that's assuming he doesnt time his spells to properly stick to them

AirKingNeoJul 28, 20182 votes

Why are you comparing Darius's FULL combo to just Ornn's W instead of Ornn's full combo?

Void KaijuJul 28, 20183 votes

Ornn's full combo is vast majority W+auto. The rest of it has rather low damage and is pretty simple to avoid.

InfernapeJul 28, 20181 votes

20% of someone's HP if they decide to stay within it. It's a lot easier to avoid, Riot nerfed the range and width of the spell.

AirKingNeoJul 28, 20181 votes

How do you dodge something while in melee range? Hope your opponent sucks?

InfernapeJul 28, 20181 votes

The range and width of his W after the nerfs is not that much larger than Ornn himself. All you'd have to do is step perpendicular to the direction Ornn is facing.

SithesisLordJul 28, 20181 votes

Unironically, so can TK by level 3.

What do both TK and Ornn have in common?

%HP damage.

Ornn's W+auto is his only reliable form of damage as his Q is only terrain for his E to be a tad more useful.

AS I LAY FEEDINGJul 27, 20181 votes

just give them bunch of cdr reduction so they can cc chain you to death with grasp like they always do.

Sire HippingtonJul 27, 20181 votes

like when you see talon having that much kill potential to the point he can actually rush a tiamat and still have enough damage to 100-0

People really underestimate how strong timat is, it adds another 1.0 ad-ratio to his burst with just the active, which at that point is about as much damage as electrocute....

Tanks do need buffs, mostly for their mid-lategame durabillity in teamifghts. However, we also need to adress the way to low TTK in the early game, espesially for DD vs DD cases.

RexxieeJul 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YjPqo0x5,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-07-27T23:48:30.760+0000)

People really underestimate how strong timat is, it adds another 1.0 ad-ratio to his burst with just the active, which at that point is about as much damage as electrocute....

Tanks do need buffs, mostly for their mid-lategame durabillity in teamifghts. However, we also need to adress the way to low TTK in the early game, espesially for DD vs DD cases.

Tiamat has an animation time and it doesnt reset your aa timer.

calling tiamat a "1.0 ad nuke" is the same as calling auto attacks 1.0 ad nukes.

Sire HippingtonJul 28, 20181 votes

any decent player can bypass the tiamat animation via animation cancelling. If you're kit gets you basically on top of you're opponent(like talons Q), it does add 1.0 total ad nuke to your combo.

tempname130583Jul 28, 20181 votes

dont bruisers like tank metas

AptestJul 28, 20181 votes

Tanks are gone from the game because the people who are supposed to play them can't dump them from their roster fast enough, the moment they are not op and obligatory.

Tanks exist in the "can someone else play this please" position for a long time in the game now. Top lane players prefer more or less any other archetype, jungle players prefer more or less any other archetype and mid lane players are too busy salivating as they browse through their list of unbanned assassins to actually consider playing galio or sion (unless super high elo).

But all of these people have enough sense to type in "we need a front line" and "can you play a tank?" after they instalock their "im yasuo otp, need malaphite" full damage pick.