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Caps should be caps.

The Ecdysiast··62 votes·15,142 views

In regards to item 3161 and item 3124

We had a cooldown reduction cap and an attack speed cap because they were balanced. It wouldn't be fair for someone to just get 100% CDR and use their abilities instantly and constantly. Likewise, it wouldn't be fair to just let someone double their attack speed with a single item.

But somehow, the designers saw fit to almost do so.

The entire concept of an item that reduces your cooldowns far past the cap goes against one of the game's fundamental balancing mechanics. [Edit] Something I didn't address is the fact Shojin's passive was of course handed down from the old Essence Reaver. The thing is, the change to stat line and cost made it more open to champions who actually interweave autos and powerful abilities, unlike mana-heavy ADC's who still mostly rely on autos and have weaker abilities because of it. Or didn't buy it in the first place because they rely entirely on abilities that outrange their autos (Ezreal). That alone made the item far more of an issue than it had been previously. And we saw a similar thing happen when they put the Sated passive onto an item non-junglers could use, with Kog'maw and Varus absolutely dominating at bot for a good while-- and later, Kai'sa. [Edit]

And, like we saw when Kog'maw was the only one able to do it or when Sated Devourer was the only viable jungle option and games were decided entirely by whoever stacked it faster, effectively increasing your attack speed past the intended cap [edit] maximum [edit] for anyone else-- especially now, when there are so many more powerful [edit] on-hit [edit] options than there were back in Sated days-- goes against another.

There are so many things that are balanced around uptime and downtime, and when you take that away you make an item that isn't fair to have, even if both sides have it. 3-hit passives are fair because every third hit is a reasonable condition. When you make it every second, it becomes too powerful. So you'd basically have to intentionally feed to lose if you get to late game and your team has a Guinsoo's user while the enemy doesn't.

I'm not saying these two items need to be removed entirely, but their passives should. Sometimes unique just means unfair.

On that note, why did we not get the actual Spear of Shojin? That'd be a perfectly fine effect.

40 Comments

PermaJinxed17 votes

Remember when Kog could double his AS and his cap?..... It was a plague... He turned into a turret that would eat tanks, the adc, the assassin, baron, all three inhibs, the nexus, 3 of the players from the enemy team, the isp for Riot.........

Yeah they removed that because exceeding the 2.5 AS cap was ridiculous.

The Ecdysiast4 votes

{quoted}

Remember when Kog could double his AS and his cap?..... It was a plague... He turned into a turret that would eat tanks, the adc, the assassin, baron, all three inhibs, the nexus, 3 of the players from the enemy team, the isp for Riot.........

Yeah they removed that because exceeding the 2.5 AS cap was ridiculous.

I... I mentioned that in the post. lol

nighthunter13422 votes

that tilted people so hard they lost all logic i stood still and got called out for scripting

The thigh guy11 votes

#bring back 5.0 kog.

Tahminatrix 7 votes

Make a poll to vote on this, I don't think the upvotes are loud enough.

Sõna5 votes

They lost the old balance team philosophy and slowly gone wrong. An item should not have so much stats to begin with especially early game. How can a DPS item having CDR and AD all together, if they want CDR, they should sacrifice some DAMAGES. If they just want pump damages, they should not have CDR at the same time with one item. The game is beyond toxic in stat fights which causes a lot of troubles.

OgSc4 votes

But guinsoos keeps u within the AS cap. If anything, Lethal tempo is what allows u exceed it.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Not for on-hit champions, it effectively allows them to cheat the system by applying their effects more often than the actual cap allows. Yes the mastery has also been a terrible idea waiting to happen, but it's also because it's generic.

The Ecdysiast3 votes

{quoted}

But guinsoos keeps u within the AS cap. If anything, Lethal tempo is what allows u exceed it.

Well, yes, that's why I said effectively. And what I emphasized was the fact that there's a distinction between critical strike champions and on-hit ones. Both can bring Lethal Tempo, effectively giving them the same cap. "Cap" now referring to the maximum for a viable build, which is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.3~. (Tristana with the maximum possible from items can get 4.57, though 5 nashor's and a guinsoo isn't a viable build. lol. And Taric with the same build can reach about 8.0 for two attacks, because his AS boost is the highest one that calculates after all other AS. Of course it's not viable on him either. )

But the champions who can build on-hit have abilities that were designed and balanced around the attack speed limit. But they either have 3rd (or 5th) hit passives, cooldowns that reduce from autos, on-hit damage, or any combination of the three. Master Yi actually has all three built-in on top of all the ones available from items, making him the biggest abuser of Guinsoo's. Kai'sa who has two of them is a close second.

There's a reason these champions build Guinsoo's instead of crit. It's just so much more powerful. Even despite the fact Yi has an ability that can crit, he doesn't build even a little because the Phantom Hit is so overpowered.

Pika Fox3 votes

It doesnt go against the fundementals of balance, because it only breaks the cap at specific times under specific circumstances, and at the cost of other options.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yj71mqNh,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-05-06T16:00:01.217+0000)

It doesnt go against the fundementals of balance, because it only breaks the cap at specific times under specific circumstances, and at the cost of other options.

It's not "at the cost of" another option if there is no option similar in strength. And there isn't. Case in point being the fact that Master Yi even has an ability that can critically strike, but the strength of that even with the fact his Double Strike can crit too pales in comparison to the on-hit build.

Using the fact items only work when they're finished (the first condition) doesn't really work as an argument. Because it's a given for every item. And the activation conditions for both items are not specific enough to use as an argument, either. They're both incredibly easy to meet. They're not kill-count conditions, or CS conditions, or anything like that. One requires 3 auto attacks-- and they don't even have to be on champions-- and the other requires you press R. You don't even have to hit anyone with your R or even have an R that damages enemies.

Sated Devourer had a more fair condition than Guinsoo's has. At least that had a set mob requirement.

Pika Fox2 votes

It is "at the cost of". Even if this build is generally better, youre still missing out on crit and survivability. There are other options that are appealing and that give stats you also want, but because you opted not to go mallet yi for staying power, youre now squishy as hell and in a feast or famine state. Mallet yi used to be his best build. Now its onhit. There is a tradeoff cost yi is paying for this.

Also, onhits likely do less to squishier targets, given its % based. His crit build is likely superior for these targets on a pure damage level. That is a real tradeoff.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Well, no, in the case of crit you aren't missing out. It is nothing but less damage that's easier to build against. That's like saying you're missing out on the attack speed of a Dagger if you turn it into a finished PD.

And saying you're missing out on survivability is not only wrong-- since the build contains plenty of it, but also comparable to saying you're missing out on a full tank build by building a damage-dealer correctly. It doesn't make an actual point. All you've said is you picked a different champion.

The very fact people are building on-hit without mallet proves you wrong. It is a better option, hands-down. Aaand only two items are % based. There's also all magic damage from Guinsoo's and Wit's, true damage from challenging smite, in Yi's case the true damage from his passive, and the extra damage from having more Alpha Strikes and Double strikes. He doesn't need health because he vanishes a ton.

Yes, technically it does less damage to squishy targets. But that's facetious. Literally the only reason it "does less" is because they have less health... which renders the point moot. They die far faster than champs with high health because of the other damage.

Pika Fox2 votes

Youve done nothing to prove me wrong. Mallet USED TO BE his top build, because you cant do anything if youre dead, and he needed staying power. Shojin (and prework ER) gave him the staying power he needed when they added on hit CDR to his Q.

Youre still missing out on that EHP, which means you are squishy. Mallet is still a good item on him, and one you are giving up and saying "i prefer damage at the cost of guaranteed survivability and sticking potential".

Crit is still more damage against those targets, so anytime youre targetting a non tank this build is by definition worse. Meaning, because you went onhit, they will survive longer and there is a non zero chance this means they live and/or you die.

You cant say there is zero tradeoff or cost when, by definition, there is.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

A trade-off, in this context means something that is an equal option.

Like I said, if you're just going to claim that building on-hit means you're sacrificing literally building wrong, you aren't talking about a trade-off.

Pika Fox2 votes

All youve done is prove you dont know how builds work in this game, as theres no such thing as an "always correct" build.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yj71mqNh,comment-id=0009000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-06T17:00:12.348+0000)

All youve done is prove you dont know how builds work in this game, as theres no such thing as an "always correct" build.

Do try to actually quote what I said, not put words in my mouth to pretend you're right.

I never said "always".

And you've missed the point. While there isn't a build that's always correct (arguably incorrect as well, since a majority of the time builds are 3 core items, and the specific build we're talking about has 4 core items), there are builds that are always incorrect.

You're never right building full AP Quinn into evenly matched opponents, for example. Nor AP Riven, Zed, etc.

And with the current state of the game, you're also always wrong to build Mallet on Yi. Sterak's and Guardian Angel are always better options. As the problem you're claiming Mallet fixed is much better dealt with by either of them.

So, again, a trade-off is not a scenario in which you're making poor choices under the misguided assumption that you need an item that doesn't actually do what you mistakenly think you need.

Pika Fox1 votes

Let me know when either of those have an on hit slow.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yj71mqNh,comment-id=000900000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-06T20:54:36.222+0000)

Let me know when either of those have an on hit slow.

Let me know when Yi loses his MS and Slow immunity. Because that's when it'll actually matter. As it stands, he doesn't need the slow. Never did. He only bought mallet when Sterak's didn't exist and GA wasn't good for damage dealers. And it wasn't for the slow.

Pika Fox1 votes

Not doing yourself any favors, because he DID buy it for the hp, ad and the slow

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yj71mqNh,comment-id=00090000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-07T00:43:29.847+0000)

Not doing yourself any favors, because he DID buy it for the hp, ad and the slow

I just explained to you why he doesn't need an enemy slow, and how he bought it when there were no other AD + HP options that would suit him for a similar cost and buildpath.

You didn't even bother making an attempt to refute my point.

Just because it HAS a slow doesn't mean he bought it FOR the slow. He bought it for the HP and AD, because it was the only option. And, like I said, in the current game Mallet will be wrong on Yi regardless, because there are two objectively better options.

The original point you tried to make, saying that a trade-off is still a trade-off even if it wasn't actually an option, still doesn't work. You don't "trade-off" the AP from Rabadan's by buying BorK instead on Yi. He simply wouldn't have bought Rabadan's effectively in the first place.

Pika Fox1 votes

And again, youre just proving yourself to not know what youre talking about. Steraks did exist pre rework, but he still grabbed mallet in higher elos because prework yi had no sticking power if he had to engage with Q, or use it early to dodge CC. Mallet solved this and gave him more EHP, which he needed because squishy yi simply doesnt work in higher ELOs.

ArtumisPrime2 votes

On that note, why did we not get the actual Spear of Shojin? That'd be a perfectly fine effect.

It drives me insane that they chose to take a viable, strong (maybe even a bit too strong) defensive/offensive hybrid, and turned it into this abomination.

This design/balance team do this shit all the time, and the mentality that brought us this item, as opposed to the defensive version, is the reason we are currently are, and have been for 2 years now, sitting in this absurd burst meta.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

It drives me insane that they chose to take a viable, strong (maybe even a bit too strong) defensive/offensive hybrid, and turned it into this abomination.

This design/balance team do this shit all the time, and the mentality that brought us this item, as opposed to the defensive version, is the reason we are currently are, and have been for 2 years now, sitting in this absurd burst meta.

To their credit, it's an incredibly simple mistake to have made. I'm sure in their minds they thought it'd be good to expand the usability of the Essence Flare passive to non-mana champions (and ones with low costs) and champions that aren't ADC's. They just didn't have the forethought to realize it would be so powerful on the different set of champs.

ArtumisPrime2 votes

I'm fairly certain (but not 100% certain) that people were screaming from the rooftops how this item was going to break champions like Jax. RIOT could have tested this theory very easily, before launching the item. These complaints, however, fell on deaf ears. Again.

You're right. It might be a simple mistake, but it's the mindset behind it that irritates me to no end. With players complaining about damage, a defensive hybrid item would have been awesome. Instead, RIOT does RIOT things and guts/removes the defensive portion of it....while simultaneously increasing its offensive power. Like....why?!

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

I'm fairly certain (but not 100% certain) that people were screaming from the rooftops how this item was going to break champions like Jax. RIOT could have tested this theory very easily, before launching the item. These complaints, however, fell on deaf ears. Again.

You're right. It might be a simple mistake, but it's the mindset behind it that irritates me to no end. With players complaining about damage, a defensive hybrid item would have been awesome. Instead, RIOT does RIOT things and guts/removes the defensive portion of it....while simultaneously increasing its offensive power. Like....why?!

Well you've gotta remember that the passive actually already existed. It only became a problem when the stat line was changed to make it more effective for non-ADC's.

ArtumisPrime1 votes

And how could they not see that it would be a problem with better stats for bruisers...when shit like RENEKTON was already building the mana/crit version of it?

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

And how could they not see that it would be a problem with better stats for bruisers...when shit like RENEKTON was already building the mana/crit version of it?

They lack both foresight and hindsight. Riot Games, after all, is a fist with no eyes.

PaladinNO2 votes

It wouldn't be fair for someone to just get 100% CDR and use their abilities instantly and constantly. Likewise, it wouldn't be fair to just let someone double their attack speed with a single item.

But somehow, the designers saw fit to almost do so.

I'm sure in their own world with 1 ms ping it made for some truly spectacular plays! ...But in the real world, where people are just trying to comprehend death in less than a second....it's far from ideal.

I've done the math on my end on this:

I got some screenshots were I took ~2000 damage in 0,80 seconds (or 800 ms). A ping of ~80 ms taken into consideration, that gives me about 700 ms of reaction time before that information is relayed to me. Or 600 ms to receive and respond, excluding the time it takes to process what is happening.

Given a few tests I've done, I have a reaction time of roughly 350 ms (related to driving a car) in an alert state. Subtract that from the 600 ms I have to react, and I have 250 ms to avoid dying, 100-0 % HP.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

I do get your frustration, but this is largely not a reaction game. At least, it's not supposed to be. It's supposed to be a prediction game.

We ward the map so we know where the enemy jungler is and try to gain enough knowledge of jungle pathing to predict when they'll be coming, even if we aren't jungle mains ourselves. We learn how to time pokes and all-ins, not just so we can poke the enemy properly but also so we can predict when they'll want to do the same. We learn the costs of items and general builds of champions, so we can predict what the enemy will come back to lane with after a death or recall an adjust how safely we play accordingly.

And that's why we're even allowed to have an assassin class in the game The reason assassins don't just completely dominate every role is because of the prediction factor we're all constantly learning and adjusting to for changes.

PaladinNO1 votes

I like my strategy games - Age of Empires, StarCraft, even plain, simple Chess. Hell, I even like mind games, puzzles and other intellectual challenges! - and I used to truly like this game.

Coming from the old Defense of The Ancients, I was finally convinced to switch to this. And I liked it. It had the same map layout, same objectives, same gameplay...but then, as far as I'm concerned, it all changed mid-season 4.

Seemingly random changes were made for no good reason. Talking about 3v3 here, who even adds a turret mid-season!? Then came season 5, with the infamous Juggernaut patch. Feels like we're still riding the literal wave of flame that one brought.

Then we got word of Rito Gem (I refuse to even say their name) selling out to Tencent Holding, a Chinese holding company known for ruining games and, by definition, holds very different standards in terms of how the game pace is (time's-a-premium-Asian gaming cafees and all that). And at around the same time we hear of LCS being boring due to the lack of excitement (drawn out team fights) and low viewer numbers as a result.

In anything else, I would say I do believe in coincidences...but in this case I don't. The timing is just too good. And there's waaay too much money involved for anything to happen by chance behind the scenes.

I digress completely here, but long story short: I used to love the prediction games. I've been a Support main 4 years running, not counting other games, and it feels like who I am even in real life at work - I predict and assist where I can.

There is no time for second-guesses or even escape if a mistake is made anymore. I see anyone while I'm off to plant a ward, or anyone sees me, I'm dead. Period. And kinowing that, I find myself not even caring what I do. I try not to make (to me) any obvious mistakes, but losing or even winning just fees...boring.

In the old days, we would see each other, they would chase, and by the time they actually caught up, both teams would have gathered and we'd have ourselves an old-fashioned bar room brawl. Or a jolly good time, because the fight would basically last 2 minutes instead of 10 seconds.

Not being able to stand instant-death anymore, I've long since switched to ARAM to get that brawling feeling back. Even the weather reminds me of home there.

ARAM matches: 9353 Total

Classic (Blind/Draft): 769 Total

I once even asked Support if I could buy some real estate on the Howling Abyss...they didn't know how to respond to that. ^^ I talked to the wrong person though - he didn't really get the joke.

Kídá2 votes

I think items should never allow a champion to exceed caps. Champion abilities were balanced with caps factored in. If you suddenly allow the champion to exceed the caps, the balance goes out the window. If champions can exceed a cap because its part of their kit, then I would rather have it so its not an obscene amount like KogMaw could do

Anu3isII1 votes

While I agree with you, it is clear even from Keystones that caps are no longer a thing. Hail of Blades and Lethal Tempo are the worst offenders and some other runes break caps, but not in extreme ways.

It is a design choice that used to be limited (few runes/masteries used to break the caps), but now it seems common in almost every build. Be it Attack Speed, CDR, Health and/or Damage.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

While I agree with you, it is clear even from Keystones that caps are no longer a thing. Hail of Blades and Lethal Tempo are the worst offenders and some other runes break caps, but not in extreme ways.

It is a design choice that used to be limited (few runes/masteries used to break the caps), but now it seems common in almost every build. Be it Attack Speed, CDR, Health and/or Damage.

CDR does still maintain its cap though. It was actually 45 with a mastery for a good few years before the rune update, and didn't cause much of a problem.

The key phrase, though, is where I said, "past the intended cap for anyone else." The runes can be accessed by on-hit and crit champions alike, so it's not quite as unfair. But when it come's to Guinsoo's, the clear advantage is in the hands of on-hit champions. And that's where their build makes it as if they have even more AS than an opponent with the same keystone. Since critical hit damage isn't an on-hit effect.

Anu3isII1 votes

I was referring to Ultimate Hunter (previously Ultimate Hat) and Presence of Mind, which make champions spam Ultimates more times than they were supposed to do seasons ago. Pick Karthus, DH as Keystone and those runes and boom... you deal way more damage than you were ever supposed to and way more frequently. And no champion can pull the same thing Karthus does.

Cosmic Insight is one of the reprints from the previous era, where very few things break caps.

I see your point now. Yeah, the item tends to bring a huge advantage to on-hit champs, which made them to be balanced completely around it. I'm kinda glad they nerf it since I hope it will be less built and its users may be buffed to a point where they don't build it 24/7. I wish Rito would remove its passive altogether, but I doubt they would do that.

About Shojin, I think the item is simply stupid. Any champion that autoattacks a lot, has a basic ability with CC and a somewhat spammable Ultimate will always be busted with this item. Jax Renekton Riven are the first ones that come to my head and they already are a headache without Shojin...

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Oh, for sure. Due to the massive disparity between ultimate cooldowns, those two runes are insanely powerful on only a few champions.

And to add to my previous point, Master Yi is a prime example of Phantom Hit being too overpowered. He even has an ability that can crit, but builds no crit at all because on-hit is just so superior it's not even a contest. It may have something to do with the fact there's actually a counter item to crit (Randuin's), while there's no similar counter to on-hits.

I was really hoping the removal of Sated was the end of the effect. And I hope one day they see that simply regulating Phantom Hit to the mid/late game doesn't actually fix the problem.

VoraciousX1 votes

As Anu3isll said, keystones have existed for far longer than Spear of Shojin so it feels kinda wrong to only mention this NOW. However I agree Spear of Shojin shouldn't have existed. But now that Riven's getting nerfed, I feel like she'll depend on Spear of Shojin too much. If they had removed auto attacks from stacking Conqueror, she would've been fine and they could change Spear of Shojin, or remove it. But now I feel like it'll be a necessity on her. As for Guinsoos, it USED to be balanced. The problem is that they've changed it so much because they want it to buff Yi, that it buffs everyone else too much as well. Back when it just gave you AD, AP, and attack speed, it was totally balanced. No one used it except for champions like Varus/Kogmaw, and Yi would OCCASIONALLY build it, not every game. The problem is they're buffing onhits specifically for Yi's sake and making guinsoo's so overpowered that people think "Why wouldn't I take this?".

The Ecdysiast2 votes

Well, I've been saying for a while that the problem is Conqueror. But actually the flip of your suggestion. Rather than removing autos from stacking, I think abilities should only be able to stack it once every 5s each. Because there's already a stipulation in place to prevent DoT abilities from doing exactly what multi-hit abilities do. The issue is that they can hit just as fast if not faster than DoT effects, and that was overlooked.

When Guinsoo's was balanced, it wasn't bought by anyone. The Phantom Hit passive is what makes it too powerful, and they're masking the fact it's just as overpowered as it was when it was on a Jungle item with the fact both teams can have a GR user if one picks one.

LordGeovanni1 votes

appearently 4 people insta dieing in competetive but no one seeing how its done is good competetive gameplay.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

appearently 4 people insta dieing in competetive but no one seeing how its done is good competetive gameplay.

What are you talking about?

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