while braum mid+kai'sa jungle is being played in pro and braum mid+lucian jungle and lulu mid+kai'sa
and i don't know how much piece of shit strats are being played
yea, yi nunu and taric nerfs are going to fix that strat
Crimson Zeppelin28 votessomeone would just use kayle instead. But hey, wasn't this funneling business practically done by adcs for whole seasons by being babysat by a support? why is it evil to do it in mid?
Pika Fox20 votesSupports existing is entirely because theres only 4 passive gold income sources.
Gold funnelling gives 2 of those sources of gold and xp to one single person so they get a massive xp and gold advantage over anyone else in the game. While its relatively easy for experienced players to deal with, for the general lopulace of boosted animals like us its not as easy, nor is it as interactive, so riot doesnt really like the paseive nature it encourages while mid and jungle build up jungles lead.
D357R0Y3R18 votesyou do realise that in half of pro games they use the gold funnelling strat?
Pika Fox1 votesIttd likely die out quickly. Unless both teams do it, youre giving up too much map pressure to the enemy jungler, so your sidelanes will likely both lose.
D357R0Y3R19 votesfunneling kai'sa with braum has 88% win rate right now you really need to follow the pro scene, i understand that some people find it boring but this strat is played in a disgusting amount of games right now and yea you give up pressure, but then you have a lvl 15 kai'sa while everyone is lvl 12 and she 3v5 the game with 2 supports
Serika Zero1 votesby every gave, you mean that 2 out of 10 teams in eulcs might do it, and 2 in na lcs?
its not as often used as you make it sound like
D357R0Y3R11 votesok do you watch lck and lpl now?
Marothennan36 votesIf you think adc+support bot is the same as funneling then you literally know nothing about gold funneling
Blakiepug8 votesIt honestly feels like the balance team is completely ignorant as to the state of the game right now.
AirKingNeo7 votessee, if they were actually good at their job, they fix what's enabling every gold funneling strat
unfortunately, they aren't so we get this.
Azadethe3 votesI'd love to know how you think they should play 5th dimensional chess and solve this issue.
Too many variables. Too many possible universes of outcomes to calculate. Too many possible constants from which to originate decision trees.
Not even joking.
Chess has some "estimated" 34 million outcomes, but that's excluding repetitive trees and repeat actions. It's closer to infinite.
And LoL is far more complicated than Chess.
To expect ANY team to balance a game this complicated is what's truly ignorant. They can calculate one or two possible culprits within ambiguous proximity and make a shot in the dark.
I mean.... there are at least 80 champs Taric alone would "Gold Funnel" for. it's not Yi exclusive...
Then you have to look at Yi and his other synergies (someone mentioned 
)
Then you have to look at Yi's Synergistic partners and then look at their synergies with other champs.
But then you kind of have to ask.... what's so unhealthy about this strategy? Most of the champs involved are sink or swim champs, and often, if they sink, they are forced to play a support role if they ever want a chance of winning.
Just look at Udyr.
If Udyr doesn't get those early game 5-6 kill snowballs, what happens? Udyr Split pushes the rest of the game and makes attempts to peel team chasers. He doesn't transform into a carry if he didn't start out as one.
I have tons of times on Pyke where a team feeds, and I can't legitimately get into a carry role, because they have fed tanks/lots of damage, so I become a support.
If they really kill this behavior, it's going to lead to even faster snowballs, where champs feel useless even earlier.
Nenthos1 votesThe example you used does not make the slightest bit of sense. 1. These are the people developing the game so they know the in's and outs by building things from the ground up 2. You don't need to think of every variable to fix a problem if it occurs, sure it may be more ambitious then it seems but no where close to the realm of "complexity" of millions of equations your implying, literally every other modern video game ever is more "complex" than chess and the devs of them don't have problems fixing their freaking game. 3. It's a team full of people who work 6-8 hours a day, no excuse. Don't know how you came up with something so baffling off the mark.
Azadethe2 votesExcept it is.
When balancing a champion, you have to think about their potential interactions with other champions.
And then you have to think about their interactions with combinations of 5 of those champions on the same team.
And then you have to think about interactions that specifically occur at different places on a map which have heavy influences on game outcomes (infernal drake dominance, Barons, different tiered turrets/lanes/Inhibitors, Red bluff, Blue buff)
And then you have to think about champion average interactions with Bounties which changes how they gold increase (especially important with snowballing assassins or no kill supports on when and how quickly they can buy items)
And then you have to think about how Summoner spells impact specific champs, because they do not help each champ equally....
And then you have to look at each rune versus each champion, and see how they impact those champions (like Teemo and Comet or Aery)
And then you have to look at how each item affects each champions in what way.
What this comes down to is your definition of "fixing" or "balancing."
In reality, what you are thinking of as fixing is a Hawkish perspective on prohibiting something that impedes YOUR (specifically YOU) fun and viability. But that's not really "fixing" anything or even balancing.
And no game is good at balancing or fixing. If anything, Riot is ahead of the curb there. Their game's decline rate is infinitesimal compared to other modern games, their sales exploded to rates unseen by any other modern game, and their innovation and marketing is FAR more active than other games. Everything you see on this website is a form of marketing. New champs are marketing. etc.
Most games begin a major (13-20%) annual decline per year after their first month. League's has been about 3-5% annually... at least by search rates.
By Revenue, they've been exploding, rising, and concurrent player counts were on the increase at least until 2016 (we don't know 2018 numbers yet).
Most games do not have post release marketing in large amounts either. They are built to earn spenders and burners. And then move on to the next game. ** If you're going to cite games which "fix problems" actually cite them. I know of many who attempt to try, but end up creating far more damning problems, and often don't actually fix the problem.**
Unless the problem is a Glitch or Bug, most attempts to solve problems are not scientific. The live release is the only real way to gain statistics on the "fix" and see if it actually was one. And like with League, that's always an ongoing process.
League has a major advantage in dealing with this though:)
Third party nonassociated sites have taken to tracking and creating statistics which players and Riot can use to bring attention to major abnormalities (minor abnormalities can often be just attributed to player base collective decision making)
Riot has Loader texts, selections as stock data to use without extensively datamining the game. This reduces the burden of interpreting data in behavior, champ selection, popularity, bans, etc.
Riot has a finite set of actions players are allowed to make in game, which helps make their in house stats more retrievable.
They have the PBE (A lot of games do have a Beta server, so this isn't entirely unique, but they do update it more frequently and often than the vast majority of other games, and they do know how to read the data).
I heavily suggest you take a semester, go to college, and take a class in the Economics department called "Game Theory." It's the science of determining the best outcomes for decision making. It applies to everything you do, everything you have done to you, and likewise, what a game does as well (life is a series of games)
RekSai CoffeeCo7 votesInstead of fixing the problem (Jungle/Scuttle crab/experience disparity between jungle and solo laners) they instead choose to nerf champs, pretty sad that they can't admit they made a mistake with these horrific jungle/changes.
Moon Mom12 votesThis strat has been used in korea way before the jungle changes. it's hard to say what caused it exactly, but it did begin pre skuttle changes with taric mid.
TehNACHO3 votesDepending on what you count towards the strategy, it's been a thing for a few years now.
Kayle+Yi, Karthus+Control/Gank junglers that don't farm as much, the S4 Double Jungle meta, and probably a lot more obscure stuff from there.
Baron Von Bangin7 votesMeddler said in his last gameplay thoughts threadv they would look into systematic changes if the nerfs didn't curb the issue.
/thread
Salson5 votesJust halve the gold and exp you get from minions if you have tier 1 or 2 jungle item. Only give current values once they buy the full enchantment.
But no, we have to run circles for a dozen of patches.
Giga Baboon5 votesAgain, your first mistake was thinking meddler thinks
squido5 votesplease remove kai sa from the game
Poske4 voteswhile braum mid+kai'sa jungle is being played in pro and braum mid+lucian jungle and lulu mid+kai'sa
and i don't know how much piece of shit strats are being played
yea, yi nunu and taric nerfs are going to fix that strat
Last 2 ranked games I played against Jax mid/jungle with lulu and janna
Wanted to KMS, didnt play league since then I think
Alex h87214 votesI feel you, Im thankful i havent seen it yet in my ranked games (low elo lol) but it says a lot about the state of the game when one player is better off basically not playing the game and being the main carry's "bitch" for literally the entire game. Puh fuckin thetic
DrCyanide4 votesGold/XP funneling
After spending time assessing funneling strats last week we've come to the conclusion that, at least for now, the correct approach to dealing with them is to address a small subset of champions, rather than trying to make wider systemic changes. The systemic options we looked at all came with significant costs to other types of play we didn't want to affect (lane minion XP penalties with jungle items, return of over leveled jungle XP, limit of one support item per team etc). Looking at funneling play most of it's heavily concentrated on just a few champs who are also on the strong side and nerf candidates anyway.
Champ changes/rationale:
- Master Yi - Removing bonus damage to minions so that he can't clear waves almost instantly. Reducing Q mana cost as well to reduce degree that hits lane/split push Yi.
- Taric - Lowering E base damage and increasing Armor ratio so his effectiveness isn't as gold independent. Also increasing ult CD which is just a bit short for its power.
- Nunu - Nerfing W AP bonus. He's got a VGU coming up moderately soon and AP boosting isn't on the revised kit. Hitting it as a result given Karthus/Nunu is the other big problem case apart from Taric/Yi.
Doesn't give the least impression they think it'll be fixed by just doing this, but that this will hit the most problematic offenders with the least impact on the game as a whole.
D357R0Y3R2 votesAfter spending time assessing funneling strats last week we've come to the conclusion that, at least for now, the correct approach to dealing with them is to address a small subset of champions, rather than trying to make wider systemic changes.
eventually, they will realise that systematic changes are needed and at that point, taric would be gutted and way worse than other supports to play bot lane
DrCyanide3 votesI doubt these changes would gut Support Taric. Taric would only be gutted if he keeps finding ways to work as a gold funneling mid nerf after nerf after nerf.
Aptest4 votesI'd love to know why people believe gold funneling strategies are a problem.
please answer ?
Mokuto Bunshi2 votesI see it as an alternate game strategy that needs some balance...
Ayanami3rd3 votesIt's a symptom that the game state is so broken, that chaos begins to reign over solid strategy. If Riot does not take serious actions, we will see more awkward approaches to League in the next months, until it's just a weird nonsense fiesta.
By the time, a good portion of the playerbase will quit playing regularly. The others embrace the new "diversity". ARAM will eventually be removed, because Rift provides the same short-lived chaotic brawls.
Pro players will tear their hair out and ask themselves why they got into League professionally. They will have to spend hours and hours of extra time learning to deal with this mess and finding a way to still get control over a match.
GripaAviara4 votesGold funneling is a strategy, so saying "chaos begins to reign over solid strategy" is kinda offplace. And I personally welcome it as an alternative. What it needs though is to be toned down a little
3TWarrior1 votesgold funneling is less a strategy and more of a trade
mid laner agrees to give their farm to the jungler in trade that the jungler will do better
Ayanami3rd1 votesGold funneling is a working exploit of the weak design. If a hacker got access to your iPhone because Apple misdesigned its software, you would not call this a strategy, but rather an exploit that should be fixed asap.
xxxDogmanxxx3 votesThe main problem is that jungle camps are worth less XP and spawn less frequently than before. Gold funneling is a misleading name for the strategy. Sure, the extra gold is there, but the real strength in the strategy lies in its xp and time efficiency. Because the jungle camps give less XP and spawn less frequently, the junglers then like to go to a lane and farm minions too. They wouldn't want to do it if the jungle camps gave more XP, and they wouldn't have time to do it if the jungle camps were up more often.
Krully2 votesits just like playing whack a mole
Akali is SO HOT2 votesYeah you're right they should nerf Lulu too
Z3Sleeper2 votesThey aren't trying to entirely remove the strategy, they are trying to nerf the abuse cases of that strategy.
Saibbo2 votesI think riot's main issue is that they tunneling to much on a issue without realizing that they're either not resolving anything or ruin something else
Sarchiapon2 votesAre you impying that RioT could have some problems with nerfing 
AGAIN?
I mean, after the 100000th nerf she received for nothing more than "being played"?
You so naive...!
[sg-miss-fortune]
Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votesThey don't wanna kill this as an option... they just don't wanna make this the strongest strat. Looking at LCK... they don't only use this strat.
AlienPrimate1 votesHere is what they need to do. Make it so you get 50% gold value from minions if you have a jungle item that scales up to 100% at 25 minutes. This makes it so junglers taking minions get very little value out of it early game but champions like Tryndamere, Udyr, and Trundle can still function as split pushers later on in the game.
GripaAviara1 votesThe problem is the new dumb jungle that enables this, because it makes the gold funneling a great way to surpass the other jungler
Azadethe1 voteswtf are you even calling gold funneling? Camping Scuttlers?
I'm sorry but I see that as backfiring:
Or....
Early game Scuttles are the worst GOLD of the jungle and they are only the third best XP camp. You really need to remember Krugs....
GripaAviara1 votesOmg, seriously?
The fking jungle XP is the worst which enable gold funneling because the enemy jungler will be 2 lvls above yours with free scuttle access
If you cant see that's a problem ...
Azadethe1 votes[img]https://i.imgur.com/6DqzDKL.png[/img]
This is how jungle XP breaks down.... or rather how it did before they added 10 XP back to Wraiths/Gromp.
I'm too lazy to redraw it for that.
But you'll notice Krugs XP explodes over scuttles all day long. It isn't until the 3rd of 4th clear where scuttle XP beats a regular camp, and even then Krugs beat it by far.
Gold also follows the same rules with Scuttle. A Krugs camp = 161 Gold level 2. A Scuttler = 70 Gold level 2. That's a 91 gold difference.
Late game, Scuttle gold gets up to 140 Gold, so the math does begin to favor taking them.
I ding level 6 right after my mids do as a jungler. I dunno about you.
I'm level 6 on Pyke when my bot lane is level 4-5.
Wild Geese1 votesThese nerfs won't even remove gold funnelling from the Champions nerfed.
It seems the balance team didn't really know what to do about the situation as of yet, or maybe they don't know if they want to "fix"it.
Infernape1 votesAs if people wouldn't start to play shit like Lulu + Twitch.
It needs systemic changes. Nerfing the champions doesn't so jack shit.
My Waifu Vanilla1 votesAnd it was stated in like 2 different Q&A's in a row now that it if it is still a problem after the big offenders are nerfed they will add more levers to prevent it.
Add921 votesJust make funneling reportable and problem solved . Trust me that when people get banned for sucking the fun out of the game and just making it a snoozefest, it'll disappear incredibly fast .
Familiar Faces1 votesI completely agree that nerfing champs one by one is a game of wack-a-mole. Riot needs to take a more generalized approach to the issue. I don't like to only complain, so i made a post with what i think would be suitable solutions. My post on the topic
