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Being able to build an item to counter someone doesn't equal balance

ValyrianBlade··8 votes·730 views

I've been meaning to write this for a while and haven't gotten around to it.

Being able to build an item to counter someone doesn't equal balance.

I'm sure there are other culprits, but the one I'm speaking of is Zed and Seekers Armguard.

I had a game a while ago (last week?). Enemy Zed, me Ahri mid. Skill matchup, great.

I start Dorans Ring, back at level 5 and buy a second Dorans, cloth armor, pink ward, and pots. Sure enough, Zed ults me at 6, I ult to my tower, charm him when he lands before he can finish his combo, gets turret aggro, chase him when he goes back to his shadow using my ult, secure the kill. Ahri 1, Zed 0.

I base and buy Seekers Armguard, not sure what else. Doesn't really matter.

The point I want to make is, itemizing against Zed works wonderfully. IN LANE. I go 2-0-1 against Zed in lane. Zed can't touch me all game long. So what's the problem? I'M WORTHLESS AGAINST HIS TEAM WHILE HE STILL CAN SPLITPUSH TOWERS AGAINST MINE AND KILL MY ALLIES. I literally had all my CDs up, find Udyr trying to take an inhibitor. At this point I have Seekers, Morellonomicon, Boots of Lucidity, Rylai's Crystal Sceptre, and two Doran's Rings. I literally landed EVERYTHING on Udyr. He tries to run away and I charm him, land Q and W, he Bear stances and stuns me and runs, I ult after him, charm's back up, land it again, land Q and W. He keeps running, I flash, charm him again, land Q and W. I land my whole combo 3 times and he still isn't dead (gets away with about 10% health). Why? Because I had to buy a silly seekers armguard to lane against Zed.

If I'm not against Zed, that first back gets a Fiendish Codex. That solo kill in lane nets me a NLR when I back. My build when I chase Udyr is less Seekers and a Doran's ring, and has a NLR and either a blasting wand or an Aether wisp depending if I want Rabadon's or Luden's (which isn't even considering all the extra CS I would get being able to single cast clear the caster minions as opposed to my allies taking all of the mid CS when they've all grouped mid). The extra AP means each of my combo's does that much more damage through his turtle stance and I get the kill after 2 combos instead of flashing for a third and still not getting it.

Instead, by having to change my build to deal with Zed in lane on a champion who doesn't like Zhonya's very much, I go 3/4/11 being unable to net any kill and am basically a utility mid landing all of my charms to let my teammates, that I need to carry because they're losing lane, get kills. Zed goes 12/10/4 because he still has the burst to secure kills on my teammates that haven't built armor. Zed and I had the same CS (and he got his later, as I was leading in laning phase and he got to split push while I couldn't get last hits with Jinx/Sej/Vlad in my lane) and I won lane and yet he's still more useful late game.

Now, I know I'm going a bit out of line. You can't take one game to mean too much. It definitely didn't help that their ADC was 8/1/14 or that Udyr was 5/2/9 or my bot lane was a combined 4/19. The point is though, that when you need to itemize against Zed playing a character who's meant to dish out significant damage, that ISN'T VIABLE COUNTERPLAY. It just shuts down your late game so much more that you can't compete with his teammates. Basically, against Zed your game becomes "beat Zed in lane and hope your teammates beat his teammates and win" i.e. "stop Zed from carrying, if you do it's a 50-50 shot for your teammates to carry or feed and if you don't you lose to Zed".

And I know there are great counter picks to Zed. He's easy to handle with people like Lissandra or Karma. That doesn't help if you pick before him though. Even if you do pick after him, not everyone wants to play those champions.

And to end this all: I don't care if Zed doesn't get nerfed and stays how he is. I'm just sick of hearing Riot say "Zed is a healthy assassin". He IS NOT. Counter-building in top lane is fine - most top laners are tanks and build defensively to counter what damage their taking anyways (and frankly most still build their core first item over 90% of the time). Damage characters prioritize their damage core first and build their defenses later. Forcing a mage or assassin to build Seekers sets them back so far it's not healthy for the game. I think this is the reason people, myself included, hate playing against Zed. It's not that you can't make him your bth in lane, it's that it doesn't matter if you do so he'll still be useful late game and you won't be because you gave up the damage needed to secure kills in order to win lane in what was still a skill matchup.

33 Comments

Godhri5 votes

Pretty sure the issue was that you went lucidity. Udyr players generally build tanky.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Morellonomicon + Lucidity + 5% Masteries = 40% CDR. Means I can prioritize AP instead of more CDR. Without the CDR I'm not getting that second charm early enough to even do the second combo.

Besides, 25% of Ahri's damage is true, Sorc Shoes are a little wasteful.

I'm not complaining that I can't burst someone 100-0. I let go of that playstyle when charm was "buffed" in 5.2. I'm saying if I had a NLR instead of Seekers I'd have killed Udyr after 2 combos instead of his Turtle Stance eating about 3/4 of the damage from each of my combos.

My normal Ahri build would be: Morello / Lucidity / Rylai's / Deathcap / Voidstaff / Ludens

The point being that needing seekers just messes everything up.

Godhri2 votes

It messes up with your specific build maybe, but not with the game or the champion in general. Your build honestly just sucks. It might be good early or mid game, but by late game, you will be mostly irrelevant.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

{quoted}

It messes up with your specific build maybe, but not with the game or the champion in general. Your build honestly just sucks. It might be good early or mid game, but by late game, you will be mostly irrelevant.

Have you ever tried it? What do you build on Ahri? How can you say a build sucks when you've never used it and frankly haven't even considered it for more than a few seconds?

A quick look at your match history shows you never even play Ahri, so how can you even comment on how a build works with her kit?

Let's briefly ignore different champion's kits and compare what appears to be your preferred build versus what I build on Ahri though:

Morello / Lucidity / Rylai's / Deathcap / Voidstaff / Ludens vs Rod of Ages / Sorc shoes / Zhonya's / Void staff / Liandry's / Deathcap

I'm going to assume you get RoA early because that's the only logical thing to do. So you're forgoing a lot more early pressure than I am in order to get your late game power - so you better have a stronger late game build.

My build: 40% CDR 637 AP 35% Magic Pen 400 health 100% mana regen 7% MS 45 MS Rylai's slow passive Luden's damage passive Morello's grievous wounds passive And obviously there are flat magic pen marks

Your build: 0% CDR 572 AP 35% Magic pen 650 health 650 mana (sort of evens out versus the mana regen probably) 50 armor 30 flat magic pen 45 MS Liandry's damage passive Zhonya's active

Take a good long look at that and say my build sucks again. My build is stronger early, as you have the lull from Catalyst being weak to allow power in RoA. Your build offers 30 flat magic penetration, 250 health, and 50 armor, in exchange for: 65 AP, 7% MS, AND 40% CDR.

Now consider that Ahri deals 1/4 of her damage as true and doesn't benefit as much from Magic Pen. Consider that she's a kite mage and benefits hugely from Rylai's passive. Consider that she's mobile and benefits hugely from that 7% MS and Luden's procs. Consider that she's sustained damage and sustained kiting and that 40% CDR is incredibly core for her. Then remember that my build is stronger early, the core finishes faster, and I offer more utility to teamfights with it.

My build sucks. Honestly, after crunching the numbers and seeing just how wrong you are, I figured I'd look at your build order. You build RoA > Haunting Guise > Liandry's with Sorcs in there early (before RoA in the one I checked).

You finish Liandry's instead of sitting on Haunting Guise and moving on to the rest of your build. Yup, should have absolutely no credibillity...

Godhri2 votes

Take a good long look at that and say my build sucks again.

Your build sucks. I don't know why you think I would build RoA on an Ahri, but ok. I will share with you my build.

Runes: 8 MPen, 27 armor scaling, 18 MR scaling, 18 flat AP.

Mastery: 21/0/9

Morellos > Sorc Boots > Luden's > Rabadon's/Zhonyas > Zhonyas/Rabadons> Void Staff

Void staff could come sooner depending on the situation; same with Zhonyas/Luden's/Rabas.

I'm a mid main, but I'm not an Ahri Main. You're right I don't play her often but that's not to say I've never played her. Luden's could easily be switched out for something else as well depending on the situation.

My understanding is that Ahri is > get in > Assassinate > Get out kind of champion. Your build doesn't give her the damage to do that. It's garbage. I know you take this offensively based on your tone, but it is garbage. I don't need to even try it to know it is garbage because I have enough experience playing her and mid in general to know that it is garbage. I'm sorry. You'll just have to accept that your build is garbage.

Akeydel1 votes

Since the removal of dfg and the change to her q and e shes become more of a kite-mage. I disagree with the OP, but theres no reason to be so disrespectful, esp. since you're misinformed.

Godhri1 votes

My reason for my change in tone (if you read my previous comments, they were not hostile) is for his tone. Still doesn't change the fact that his build is pretty bad.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

First, as I opened with you not playing ahri I just took the typical mid build you seemed to use every game on other champions. Hence the "ignoring how builds go with a champion's kit" comment.

To the point of your current build: Only differences from my build are: Sorcerers boots instead of lucidity zhonya's instead of rylais

First, your play pattern on ahri is off. Pre 5.2 she was an assassin, and her build and kit were completely different: DFG, deathcap, lucidity, void staff, zhonya's, then optional but Lich bane or morello were options.

With dfg and charm amplifying damage, you hit a charm and you kill pretty much anyone.

With 5.2 changes she doesn't have the damage to blow up anyone in a single combo from 100 to 0 unless she's ahead. Trying to build her that way just doesn't make sense. It may work if you land a charm and you have teammates alongside you to help take down that target, but if teammates are there you don't need that little bit of extra damage anyways.

To the current ahri builds post dfg: Ahri is a kite mage with true damage in her kit. You build magic pen in lieu of cdr, meaning you have 25% cdr to my 40%. To put the difference in perspective (as cdr is more valuable the more you stack) you can cast spells 33% more often while I can cast spells 67% more often. I.e. The 15% extra cdr is worth as much as the first 25% cdr.

What do I lose being short 15 flat magic pen with magic pen marks and void staff When 1/4 of my damage is true? definitely less than 0.75 × 15% = 11.75% damage. Meanwhile the cdr difference came to 33% sustained damage. So if you're not bursting them to 0 in 1 combo, CDR gives at least 20% more damage (plus more likely you get a spell back up to finish them off earlier, and more likely your ult is up when you need it).

On to rylais v zhonya's: Zhonya's is severely overrated unless you're in one of a few scenarios:

  1. you need it to survive a DoT (e.g. Zed ult or malz e), AND you're capable of bursting your opponent to 0 before needing to use the active. The second part is key here, if your opponent is still alive they'll just finish you after you exit stasis, especially with the free skillshot hit.
  2. you have an instant cast escape available after you go on and use your combo (and again that combo SHOULD be killing someone).
  3. you have a strong initiation to catch out a squishy target and your team can follow in to kill the target and protect you from being killed as soon as you exit stasis.

Post 5.2 without the damage to blow someone up, ahri fails 1 and 2. Ahri also fails 2 because the only way she's getting in for the kill is her ult, which will go on CD during stasis but is still up for the escape without entering stasis. Ahri fails 3 because her charm isn't a strong enough engage, 3 only really applies to something like a Lissandra ult. Again, ahri can escape with her ult immediately if she doesn't use the stasis (or the q ms burst). Oh, and not sure but there WAS a bug where entering stasis before the q orb started returning to ahri canceled the second half of the spell. So using zhonya's would actually REDUCE your combo's damage.

Zhonya's DOES offer 20AP on rylais, and has 50 armour in lieu of 400 health. The health will prevent the enemy APC from blowing you up and helps against their ad, while the armour is only good against ad (but better in that case).

Rylais slow passive though, is a huge boost to ahri's kit (unlike the zhonya's active). With 40% cdr and the passive, I can chase or escape anyone. I've literally split pushed top wave to inhibitor turret, had an enemy zed and blitzcrank go for me 2v1, and successfully kited both of them from their inhibitor to my top Lane Tier 2 turret without taking a single hit and bringing both of them to under half health, for a teammate to come from the jungle and secure a double kill. Between slows on every cast, q ms boost every few seconds, charms whenever someone gets to close, and 3 dashes on my ult when all else fails, I can escape anything and chase anything (that original udyr chase went all the way from inhibitor to enemy t1 turret and could have kept going if an enemy champion hadn't showed up).

The point being, I can get my second combo off sooner to actually secure the kill on the squishy than your build. I can escape better than your build. I can chase better than your build. I do more sustained damage than your build. I have more utility than your build (extra slows to peel for teammates or catch fleeing enemies for teammates).

My build better suits ahri's new playstyle. Of course it isn't going to be as good if your strategy is to go hyper aggressive and try to get a large lead then burst people 100-0, but if your build is only better when more than slightly ahead it doesn't really matter because if you're that far ahead you have a big advantage anyways. It's more important to consider the build when you're reasonably close to even.

You can say a build is garbage all you want, but if you haven't tried it and don't know the champion's playstyle or kit, you simply don't know anything to back up the statement.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

In addition to the lengthy comment, I know this isn't the best evidence because there are lots of other factors involved (e.g. item may be a 6th item purchase for most people and if you get to 6 items you're more likely to win) but ahri's overall win rate is 52% ish. Her win rate with rylais is 59.54%. That's a pretty considerable jump to say rylais isn't a good item on her, let alone to say it sucks.

http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/item/rylais-crystal-scepter/stats

Godhri1 votes

Alright. You really don't know much do you? Item building has more than just champion kits to consider. That's my general build because I play games where it is necessary for me to have those items for those champs based on the enemy team comp, enemy team progress in game, and enemy team's item builds. Furthermore, my builds revolve around champions who can actually make use of those items whom I actually play such as Lissandra and Brand.

I never said Rylai was bad on Ahri. I only said that your build as a whole is bad (which it still is even assuming your numbers are correct). The only thing the enemy team would have to do to nullify your build is build one item: Banshees. The HP nullifies your true damage and the MR nullifies what little magic damage you still deal. In a team fight, you will be so irrelevant that your entire team would likely be dead before you can deal even 1/2 of a champion's health. Mid champions are meant to be able to deal chunks of magic damage or damage in general. They are the burst roles which means they need damage or enough sustained damage to make them relevant (For example Azir).

My item build I gave you as an example is just that; an example. It can vary based on the situation of the game. Just because you can't adapt your build to the game, doesn't mean that the game/champion you face is imbalanced. I'll admit, your build might have some limited viability which doesn't make it completely bad, but it still is a bad build to use as a general go to build as it is so easily countered.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

Math:

You don't understand it, do you?

I've clearly outlined that Ahri typically can't burst an enemy champion 100-0 reliably anymore. If we assume optimal conditions where everything hits (all 3 ult charges, all 3 Ws, ignite, etc...) on an enemy squishy target, either build is more than enough to 100-0 a squishy without Banshee's veil. NEITHER build is enough to 100-0 a squishy with Banshee's Veil UNLESS you use ignite (in which case both builds still get the 100-0).

My build results in higher sustained damage (higher DPS). The amount it is higher INCREASES after the enemy builds Banshee's veil. In your attempt to 'break' my build, the solution actually HURTS YOUR BUILD MORE.

Math completed in excel. Do it yourself if you don't believe it, or feel free to ask to see any of the formula's used: All max rank damage assumptions are at the top. The multiplier does not apply to W because I already assumed all 3 hit in the max damage (as additional spells deal reduced damage). It does apply to R only. Ignite's damage is NOT assumed in DPS, but IS assumed in the left-item of the "max combo" figure and not assumed in the right-item of the "max combo" figure. Assumptions about the squishy targets base (+ runes [scaling MR glyphs] and masteries) health and MR are assumed next, and the next line has those values with Banshee's veil.

Row 11 begins the relevant stats of the builds (yours is on the left, mine on the right). DPS 1 is the damage per second each build can produce (without Ignite) against the Squishy target with no MR item. Notice that my build is about 9.9% stronger. DPS 2 is the damage per second each build can produce (without Ignite) against the Squishy target with Banshee's Veil. Notice that my build is about 10.4% strong. NOTICE that the Squishy building Banshee's Veil made my build relatively more strong than your build, i.e. it hurt your build more. That's because flat pen becomes LESS effective as they stack additional MR. I.e. as targets get more and more tanky my build will become even stronger relative to your build than it is already.

Of course, DPS / sustained damage isn't the be-all-end-all. Being able to 100-0 a squishy is really important too, and no doubt your build will do that better because you have flat pen. Except... well, it doesn't really. Without Banshee's veil both builds secure the kill easily (won't be affected by changes in assumptions). Against Banshee's veil, both builds secure the kill with Ignite, and don't secure the kill without it. Meaning my build ACTUALLY would get the kill earlier without ignite as my Q and W will be back up before yours to finish the kill (assuming we're not killed by then). The values against Banshee's veil are actually fairly close, so while I tried my best to make reasonable Health and MR assumptions for a late game ADC, I suppose some changes could result in your build actually securing a kill in a scenario where mine can't. Then again, I'd argue that having my ultimate up 12 seconds earlier could easily result in me being able to seize an opportunity to secure a kill vs. an out of position ADC when your build still has the ultimate on a 2 to 12 second cooldown. My build also is more likely to result in the ultimate being available again at the end of a teamfight to chase the sole surviving enemy while yours is still on a 2-12 second cooldown.

Godhri1 votes

alright bro. Keep building what works for you. I won't argue with the results that you can achieve with your build (assuming they are good results). I'll keep building what works for me. Good luck.

Sirsir1 votes

You had me until the 25%. Its 10% max. Although without Pen I suppose it might rocket that high...

Also Zhonyas is the most powerful AP item, and way better on Ahri than Rylais since she is already mobile enough to stick/run.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

By the 25% I'm assuming you mean when I said 1/4 of Ahri's damage is true (please correct me if I'm mistaken).

You could very easily be right about her burst not being 1/4 true damage, but if you look in the post game stats after any game with an Ahri in it, under damage dealt, about 1/4 of the total damage dealt is true damage. Of course, you poke with Q and not W or R, so again that could be an incorrect way of looking at it. Although you also have Ignite as true damage for your burst combo which you don't poke with. Also note that Q has half the CD of charm, so it's not a stretch to assume that (especially with 40% CDR) you're going to be able to get off a second Q (again recall that Ahri typically can't burst someone 100-0).

Even if we DO assume that (even without magic pen) only 10% of Ahri's combo is true damage, the stats for Lucidity vs Sorcerers boots don't lie:

At maximum (15 MR for enemy after Void staff and runes apply) Sorcerer's Shoes will increase magic damage by 15%. Apply 10% as true damage and your damage output is increased by 13.5%. Lucidity for 40% CDR rather than 25% CDR offers spell casts 67% faster rather than 33% faster, for a 33% increase in damage. Even with the conservative assumption, the sustained damage offered by lucidity is much higher than what's offered by Sorcerer's shoes (it's even much higher if we assume that ahri does NO true damage). As opponents' MR (post void staff and runes) increases, the difference of the 15 flat pen decreases as well (whereas the bonus offered by CDR stays constant). It may be more optimal to run 9 scaling cooldown reduction glyphs and sorcerer's shoes but until I have those runes available I won't be able to try that.

On Zhonya's: To say it's the most powerful AP item is a stretch. If you're a champion that makes good use of its active then I can at least entertain the argument. I'd never consider it stronger offensively than Deathcap or Luden's Echo otherwise though (which both offer offensive passives rather than a defensive active, and the same base AP).

Compared to Rylai's: Ahri is mobile enough to stick/run, I agree. Rylai's just makes her better at it, and helps her team. Teammate being chased by 3 enemies? You can charm 1 over a wall for them but the other 2 are still there. With Rylai's? You can charm the biggest threat and Q to slow all 3. Enemy team disengages a teamfight after 1 death and run away 4v5. Ahri can chase easily, but all they have to do is keep running until she's chased too far from her team then turn 4v1. Or with Rylai's Ahri can cast a Q and slow a few of them so her team can chase in as well. Most importantly, there are a lot of other champions that are really good at escaping and chasing. Against them, Rylai's can easily be the difference between Ahri catching/escaping or not. It's also a whole hell of a lot better to kite rather than run. With Rylai's I can kite multiple opponents to low health while they chase me down a lane (letting a teammate flank them for free kills). Without, I'm more likely to get caught and even if I don't, I'm not dealing much damage to the enemies crazy enough to chase me.

The only offense Zhonya's offers on Rylai's is 20AP (and possibly the active), and in exchange sacrifices slows on all of her spells. Until someone explains how Ahri can use Zhonya's active in a really effective way, I just don't see why it would ever be a better choice. If Ahri engages it's with her ultimate to get a charm on an off-guard target, in which case her ultimate is up to dash back out, but will go on CD if she uses Zhonya's. Maybe there's an argument if you get caught, but then again you shouldn't be getting caught anyways and if you do, Rylai's slow combined with her kiting kit is probably a more reliable escape than using Zhonya's and giving them a free skillshot land on you as you exit stasis. Perhaps with very specific team comps you'd want to engage as Ahri and bait the enemy to target you thinking you're caught, you use Zhonya's and your team follows up hard while you're in stasis. Unless your teammates have good follow up, lots of CC, and are sufficiently ahead to take an even fight though, it isn't going to work all that well. The typical type of team that can successfully peel for you out of stasis is also the team that can engage for themselves.

Sirsir1 votes

Holy wall of text...

Zhonyas is the most powerful AP item because of the active. ANY mage with decent AP scaling makes good use of the active. With Ahri you can pop your W at 1hp and Zhonyas while your W gets the kill. Plus the numerous other uses Zhonyas is for.

Rylais isnt that good on Ahri unless you are halfassing your defensive item. As I said she has an easy enough time sticking to her targets. Although I admit I didn't know W fully procced it until earlier today. The weak slow is literally only good to use with Liandries, and you don't usually want that on Ahri...

CDR boots rush has its merits, but your damage potential in teamfights will be noticably lower. 15 flat is going to be about 40% of your enemy carries early MR, thats a big damage spike lost.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Using Zhonya's active before W foxfires have selected a target and fired from Ahri results in the fires fizzling and not targeting anyone.

Nice try though.

I've established elsewhere that CDR increases my sustained damage instead of 15 flat magic pen. I'll attach the same calculations here. Basically, my build (despite the lower AP from Rylai's vs Zhonya's) does 9.9% more sustained damage than the Sorcerer Shoe's build against a squishy target, 10.4% more damage against a target with Banshee's veil, and even more against a target stacking more MR.

Whether or not you like the Rylai's passive is personal preference. To me, the slow is worth a loss of 20 AP. Not to mention 400 health is a more gold value than 50 armor from Zhonya's (1067 gold versus 1000 gold) and works against magic, true, AND physical damage rather than only physical damage.

Nick Valentine4 votes

Seeker is a lane item for the defensive stats. Hourglass is a post lane item with much more AP. If you choose to buy further defensive items (Rylai) without upgrading your seeker, of course it will be useless.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Rylai gives 100AP. Seekers gives 40AP (once stacked, easily). Zhonya's gives 120AP. Rylai's + Seekers > Zhonya's. Especially when Rylai's gives the slow that lets me get off multiple combos on the same person I'm chasing. Not to mention, the AP from Zhonya's EQUALS the AP from Seekers + NLR. There's NO EXTRA AP for building Zhonya's (that NLR would be better built in to Deathcap or Luden's Echo for more damage).

Although to be fair, I didn't upgrade seekers because I never had enough money on a back the entire game to afford a NLR.

Which happened because I had to rush Seekers and thus didn't have the AP to play normally. i.e. clear wave as quickly with my spells and roam. And mid-game to secure CS with my Q when allies were grouped mid.

Although I may consider ignoring Seekers in the future and just grabbing the health from Rylai's instead though...

Nick Valentine1 votes

Rylai Base Cost: 2900g Blasting Wand + Tome + Upgrade to Hourglass: 1600+435+500+860 = 3395

At the very least you can afford a blasting wand with the upgrade for more total AP.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Not sure why you have tome in there...

Rylai's: 2900 Blasting wand + rest of Zhonya's: 2960 (already more)

Seekers + Rylai's: 140 AP and 45 Armor, 400 health, and a slow passive I want as a kite mage Blasting wand + Zhonya's: 160 AP and 50 armor, and an active I don't need.

The slow on Rylai's is going to give me a lot more value than 20 extra AP will.

In the context of that fight... MAYBE the 20 extra AP makes the difference. If you're saying that though, you're just proving my point that being forced to go Seekers>Zhonya's instead of Deathcap is an AP reduction before completion and an even bigger one once I get Deathcap's passive. If you're arguing my build is wrong and getting a slow in lieu of 20 AP cost me, you're admitting that sacrificing more than that much AP before I complete the item and considerably more after is significantly worse.

Nick Valentine1 votes

Ok first of all, Rylai has tome. So Blasting Wand + Tome + HP is the Rylai build path. So first I was not wrong.

Secondly you built seekers because you assumed Zed was going to destroy you. He didn't and you had an easy time killing time. Seekers did not allow you to kill him. It is a defensive item. You should have not bought seekers in the first place if you could outplay Zed.

Thirdly like I said, seekers is not a late game item. Hourglass is is a final item. Hourglass active is useful for escaping a Zed ult or after you go in a teamfight.

Lastly you build tanky in general. Udyr is extremely tanky. Of course you can not do anything. Seeker is not an ineffective item. You clearly had the upper hand in lane and you built a safety build when you could have dominated your lane and ganked with a deathcap early.

You were not forced to build seekers in this particular situation. If you wanted to play aggressive you cannot have a safe build.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

First, you were comparing costs. If you meant it was the Rylai's build fine. You weren't clear at all though. If you're comparing costs and saying I could have more AP, I'm assuming it's because you're saying Rylai's cost more so I need to factor in the extra AP value.

Second, I built seekers because I assumed Zed was Zed. He pokes with AD, he all-ins with AD, he has sustained damage with AD. Seekers is the only item that gives AP and Armor, and without Armor Zed pretty much gets to kill you for free. There's no guarantee I land my charm every time I see him and if I were here complaining that I die to Zed each time I miss a slow moving skillshot because his ult is point-and-click everyone would be telling me I could have just built seekers and had no problems. You can't have it both ways - saying he's balanced because Seekers and he's balanced because I can ignore seekers and build offense.

Third, my post clearly explained that the gold spent on the build given that I had seekers in lane was better used on Rylai's than on upgrading to Zhonya's and having an extra blasting wand FOR OFFENSE. Ignore the fact it was the better defensive option too.

Last, let's ignore our disagreement that I was or wasn't forced to build seekers (it's the most common response to anyone complaining about laning against Zed "just rush seekers"). What do you suggest I build that cloth armor in to? Or are you suggesting I'm not supposed to build the cloth armor at all, when Zed starts LS+3HP and I start Doran's+2HP and have built in sustain as Ahri and still have to recall before him. Then when Zed ults me at 6 he just sticks around after and kills me with auto attacks (I mean, he ulted me when I was at full health as soon as I hit 6 back in lane, how am I supposed to know he's that dumb? He was taking every chance to poke me before I recalled, he pushed lane and recalled for bilgewater cutlass, came back to lane and immediately ulted me). Then even despite being up that kill, my jungler ganked for me the next time and as we were fighting Zed 2v1 he opted to ult me thinking he could get the kill. The reason I only got the assist was the enemy jungler showed up when Zed was almost dead and I was around 40% health with death mark on me (and it popped me to under 20%) and I left and let Sejuani get the last hit for the kill as I knew Udyr would kill me if I stayed. Without Seekers at that point, Zed kills me despite me having the upper hand in lane.

Then go on to the point that I couldn't have rushed Deathcap anyways because I never had 1600g when I backed for a NLR (which I pointed out in my first reply). Because Zed is a manaless champion who can poke all day for free and I can't waveclear as effectively because of Seekers.

And the point of the thread wasn't "oh god I can't kill an Udyr" - that was an example of how far off my damage is when I'm forced to build a seekers to lane against Zed. My typical Ahri build was posted in another reply: Morello / Lucidity / Rylai's / Deathcap / Voidstaff / Ludens The idea against Zed was to replace Ludens with Zhonya's. The problem is that having Seekers early means my damage is behind ALL GAME. My core, Morello / Lucidity / Rylai's, is more than enough to kill people when I complete it without over 1600g wasted on seekers + 2nd Dorans (which I bought the second Dorans for mana regen because I knew I'd be getting Seekers instead of Morello first and hence would be oom without it). If you've never tried the build on Ahri, you don't know the power spike it gets there (40% CDR + all the mana you need + grievous wounds + slow passive with 180 AP ignoring runes and masteries and 1 Dorans). From that point onwards I have the damage to get those kills throughout the game - e.g. at the point of the fight against Udyr add in a NLR and blasting wand for 120 more AP (instead of 40 from Seekers and 15 from extra Dorans) and he's done. Hence the whole point of this thread - needing to build against Zed not only delays your power spikes but actually invalidates them as there's no such thing as a power spike when your opponent can survive it immediately.

My entire point is: You can't say Zed is balanced because you can build Seekers - because building Seekers really hurts a lot of mages/assassins offensive capabilities in the game. Any QQ thread about Zed getting easy kills in lane always results in responses of "build Seekers" but doing so basically means Zed has just shut you down all game despite never doing anything to earn that advantage.

Obviously your responses are saying "don't build seekers you don't need it against Zed" - in which case you're saying Zed doesn't have oppressive kill potential in lane when you don't have armor built. You're entitled to your opinion there, but the vast majority would say you're wrong.

Renaille2 votes

{quoted}

Rylai gives 100AP. Seekers gives 40AP (once stacked, easily). Zhonya's gives 120AP. Rylai's + Seekers > Zhonya's. Especially when Rylai's gives the slow that lets me get off multiple combos on the same person I'm chasing. Not to mention, the AP from Zhonya's EQUALS the AP from Seekers + NLR. There's NO EXTRA AP for building Zhonya's (that NLR would be better built in to Deathcap or Luden's Echo for more damage).

Although to be fair, I didn't upgrade seekers because I never had enough money on a back the entire game to afford a NLR.

Which happened because I had to rush Seekers and thus didn't have the AP to play normally. i.e. clear wave as quickly with my spells and roam. And mid-game to secure CS with my Q when allies were grouped mid.

Although I may consider ignoring Seekers in the future and just grabbing the health from Rylai's instead though...

You'll have 40 ap either way because of seekers. You could get Rylais for 2900gold and 100 ap(29 gold per ap) or finish zhonyas for 2100 gold getting 80 more ap(26.25 gold per ap)

If you want AP, it is more cost efficient to finish zhonyas than to buy a rylais.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

If you just want AP, it is more cost efficient to hold that NLR and turn it in to a deathcap later. You know, because Seekers and NLR are already 120AP and making Zhonya's gives no extra AP.

I explained perfectly clearly how Rylai's was a more valuable item to finish than Zhonya's. Even ignoring the health on Rylai's, it's the better offensive item because of the passive.

And regardless of whether I go Rylai's or Deathcap (as I've established multiple times already that Zhonya's is a waste) I'm still stuck having spent gold on a seekers that's setting my build back. The whole point. Isn't it odd how every argument everyone makes against my point leads right back to it? hmm... wonder what that means...

1000angrybees2 votes

Not sure why people say zhonya's when youre not very likely to get it before level 6, and especially as zed hits 6. he throws them damn shurikens everywhere in lane and you're stuck running out of mana. QSS is less likely to burden you, but other than removing part of zed's ult it offers nothing compared to zhonya's stats.

IllusoryLumines2 votes

{quoted} I'M WORTHLESS AGAINST HIS TEAM Forcing a mage or assassin to build Seekers sets them back so far it's not healthy for the game.

No it fucking doesnt. You're very very VERY slightly weaker in SPECIFIC situations. Seeker's is extremely cost efficient, in fact it's so efficient that it singlehandedly made every other AD assassin unviable. Seriously, winning your lane handedly while still getting a lot of AP for early skirmishes plus being stronger against their ADC or jungler when you get ganked or in early skirmishes(which happen a lot as a midlaner). That, and zhonya's is a perfectly fine item, it's not deathcap, but acting like you're losing a huge advantage for buying it is just asinine.

Like seriously, this is why I think "counteritemizing isnt counterplay" is a shitty argument, most of the items that you're going to be counteritemizing with are so efficient on their own that whatever "disadvantage" you're getting for buying it instead of your original core item is outweighed by the advantages _for _buying it.

If buying deathcap wouldve made you 100% stronger in a normal situation and zhonya's would have made you 90% stronger, versus zed deathcap would've made you 100% stronger, but the advantage from "I have a seeker's/zhonya's vs zed" would make you 120% stronger in general.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

You're pretty much making my point actually...

Deathcap > Zhonya's Against Zed in lane, Zhonya's > Deathcap Build Zhonya's Against anyone else on his team / after laning phase: has Zhonya's instead of Deathcap. Hence is weaker than if lane wasn't against Zed.

You say it's only very very VERY slightly weaker, but you're missing a key problem. Most assassins/mages are only viable if they're combo is capable of securing kills. If my combo under the normal build is capable of taking the ADC 100-0, and my combo with the Seekers/Zhonya's build because I'm facing Zed is capable of taking the ADC 100-10, even though I've only lost 10% damage I'm SIGNIFICANTLY less useful to my team. After my combo their ADC gets peeled, since he's still alive he attacks me while he repositions and his damage makes me die instead of survive the CC duration with 60% health remaining. He receives heals/shields or uses lifesteal and recovers health. He damages my teammates. All because I lost my kill potential by being forced to sacrifice 10% damage to be able to survive against Zed in lane. That small change to the build changes a fight where their ADC is dead and I'm at 60% health to a fight where they're ADC is alive and I'm dead. That's not slightly weaker - that's game breaking.

And I'll reiterate from the original post. I'm not saying I need Zed nerfs. I'm just sick of everyone saying Zed is healthy because Seekers exists. There are plenty of mid laners who don't want to build seekers and suffer when they need to.

Kariu Rena2 votes

item 3157

Gets best itemization in the game

Still whining because they cant rush chalice everytime

ValyrianBlade3 votes

I don't even build Chalice on Ahri... like, ever (unless I'm against Veigar - so yea, never).

What exactly makes Zhonya's the best item in the game? The build path that requires the most expensive component in the game? The less offense than Ludens or Deathcap? The stasis active that is only really worth anything in 3 scenarios (which I've mentioned elsewhere so I won't bother again)? The armor (when you're ideally not taking auto attacks anyways...)?

Kariu Rena1 votes

i hope that you are just trolling me :^)

insaiyanbacca1 votes

because it is udyr lol, and you didnt build any magic pen...

ValyrianBlade1 votes

The point isn't Udyr... I'm just using that as an example of how Seekers set me behind. I figured the whole point of landing everything 3 times would be more meaningful than just complaining that I couldn't kill their ADC with 1 combo.

Ahri = 1/4 true damage - I put out 3 full combos, that's 3 q's that hit true damage (I also sent out 2 other Qs as I was chasing as the CD is half that of E, but I'm not certain they hit so I didn't bother mentioning them).

Hadn't built magic pen yet. Because a) Most mid mages don't build magic pen in their first 2 non-boot items b) I was set back by seekers armguard (i.e. the whole point of this thread)

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