"Shaco early game was too strong, we destroyed it"

Best princess EU · 2016-12-10T01:04:01.263Z

"let us destroy his late game now" xd

Best princess EU·Dec 10, 2016·70 votes·3,183 views

"let us destroy his late game now"

55 Comments

rtbf76109271Dec 10, 201612 votes

The most confusing thing about these assassin changes is their consistency. Some of them they want a "longer window" of damage for counterplay Fizz Leblanc . Some of them they said fuck that and you get deleted the same or faster than before Rengar Khazix . Some of them they said fuck counterplay altogether, you cant even detect them anymore Vayne . Then, Shaco apparently is the antichrist so they are deleting him

Just doesn't add up.

Pommel KnightDec 10, 20163 votes

Don't know if Fizz was sarcastic or not, but he is trash tire now. In tf he is useless, ult gets blocked and you cant do shit. He is too reliant on ult to set up his w. No consistent dmg and no execute ( you either kill them or don't). Long ass cool-downs, rank 5 0% cdr with 6 sec q, 10 sec w and 10 sec e. With 45% cdr 3.4 q, 6 sec w and 6 sec e. Not to mention he still has big mana problems even more now with w not refunding the whole mana cost above rank 1.

He's more of a glorified engage support that deals dmg late game.

SSW TalonDec 10, 20168 votes

Lmao what crack have you been smoking? "Fizz is trash tier" okay buddy

NymzoDec 10, 20163 votes

''rito plz, can't aim ma only skillshot, buf fizz because he's trash tier. Trust me, Im diamond/master/challenger smurf hehe xd.

LamterDec 11, 20162 votes

Actually, he ended plat 1 78 Lp last season.

Pretty close to diamond.

Also looks like he played a lot of Fizz.

I don't see you, or SSW Talon guy over there have any credibility over him. You guys are just talking out of your ass without any facts/proof. Atleast he fucking tried to justify what he said.

Give him arguments. Prove you're right (You're not).

NymzoDec 11, 20161 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Fizz

He was sitting at 47% win rate at patch 6.23 in plat league and above. Sure, it's not 50% but it's far from being trash tier. Trash tier is something like release Bard , release Ivern or even release Syndra .

He complains that he can't do shit if he missed his ult or if it gets blocked. Oh geez, it's not like that would happen with ANY fucking champions with a skillshot ult or anything, right? Also, I would like point out that even after his first ''rework'', he didn't even need his ult to kill somebody ffs. Actually, he never had too because of the all the dmg he could do on his basic abilities. Which is really dumb, since most assasins need their ult in order to kill a target at full health (aside from an adc, let's be honest here). Now, as a fizz player, you WILL have to be smart and aim your fish before pressing e and going in like a monkey.

His second point, which is the cd of his spells, is dumb right stupid. You think having all your spells under 8 sec at max cdr is long? God damn, even the base cd (0% cdr) on his spells are not even that long. In order to archieve that as a support, I would need at least 25% cdr or 35% depending of champions.

His final point is the mana issue. I'm pretty sure both item 3165 and item 3100 are good items on fizz, so I don't really see the issue. As for the early game, well, you got to have some weakness, right? Otherwise, it would be unfair because of Fizz's massive late game.

Oh yea and also ''glorified support'', yea, I can totaly kill the adc in one rotation of spells late game (unless I'm playing a carry mage support).

Overhall, this guy just didn't adapt to the new changes and now complains on forums because his favorite, or even main champion, plays a little bit different and now he wants some buff to get that sweet, sweet LP.

Also, as for you Lamter, I would like to know how the fuck do you think you know absolutely anything about me being wrong about Fizz? You mostly play top lane and you seem to barely play support and you don't even play mid. And I'm also plat, and most Fizz in this elo go mid, not top. At least as a support, I had to deal with Fizz in a few ways so what I'm saying is not necessarily out of my ass.

LamterDec 11, 20162 votes

That's all I wanted.

Maybe if people discussed things more here, there would be discussion instead of just ridiculing someone. Of course I can't argue against what you said.

I've played mid against him twice, and it was the most frustrating shit I've ever had to play against.

VexingRavenDec 10, 20162 votes

{quoted} Just doesn't add up.

Because silver ADC players cried about Shaco being "toxic" because he's the one assassin they can't just chase down and kill.

Quantum LotusDec 10, 20166 votes

I don't understand why his early game was nerfed... he is supposed to be an early game counter jungling champion with high gank potential like Lee Sin.

WyrmbladeDec 10, 20165 votes

Somebody on the balance team must have just gotten steamrolled by a korean Workshop Shaco main.

WhaiiSoSeriousDec 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Somebody on the balance team must have just gotten steamrolled by a korean Workshop Shaco main.

That is legit what i was thinking.

ZelorxonDec 10, 20163 votes

Yeah that's basically the balance team in a nutshell, a bunch of plats and silvers or even worse diamonds that get ran over by champions that will eventually get nerfed next patch. I once thought it was a joke, until i saw it with my eyes.

SkorchDec 10, 20164 votes

Too be fair his early game was complete bull before assassin update

It Hertz When IPDec 10, 20164 votes

Shaco Oh, you picked a jungler with initially slow clear times? Have fun clearing without your second buff.

ChaosThiefDec 10, 20164 votes

Or your first buff, I'll be taking that.

Oh, you also don't want half of your camps, do you? And you don't mind dying a few times?

*my experiences when playing against shacos

TequilaZombieDec 17, 20161 votes

I still play Smite Shaco Mid only for that. He's a shitty jungler right now, but if he gets to have lane XP and as a bonus fuck up with the enemy jungler he makes up for his shitty damage.

Lord MalpercioDec 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ybp6vwLQ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-12-10T15:54:59.980+0000)

Oh, you picked a jungler with initially slow clear times? Have fun clearing without your second buff.

He can't do that anymore. They removed box stacking and Q time is abominable.

VexingRavenDec 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Too be fair his early game was complete bull before assassin update

What about it was bull? And how is it bull compared to Lee Sin?

SkorchDec 10, 20162 votes

Did i mention Lee Sin sir, you cant balance champions by comparing them like that, yes Lee Sins early ganks are bull and riot is working on fixing it (for instance they just nerfed krugs exp) The fact that Pre Rework he would pop into your lane with zero warning and most likely kill you was a problem

BisaknospDec 10, 20164 votes

while we are at it

LeeSin

his early is stronger than pre update shaco so why was he left untouched? i know there is an ultimate nerf on the pbe but still that wont change anything about his oppressive early

Count ZubatDec 10, 201635 votes

Are you new or what? Everybody knows that if Lee Sin falls off meta for 2 patches, he gets buffed because "he hasn't seen too much proffesional play for a long while".

BisaknospDec 10, 20163 votes

no shit sherlock lul

OelykDec 10, 20163 votes

the new kalista? Kit to strong for any suitable balance?

Best princess EUDec 10, 201618 votes

shaco kit is too strong? u w0t m8?

shaco new early game is probably the worst i ever seen ever including nasus And now for some reasons they decided to nerf shaco who has his win rate at 50%

AND THEY STILL DIDNT FIXE AD SHACO

OelykDec 10, 20161 votes

Becuase I am guessing his q combo late game just aint fair and lack counterplay...

Best princess EUDec 10, 20162 votes

it has a counterplay what combo? shaco Q+E deals 75% of an adc hp in late game (if they build 0 magic resistance) he then has to use an other E to kill you and use his R to gain some time.

dunder killDec 10, 20162 votes

Embrace your inner KogMaw and accept that the AP build is better and more fun anyway

ChickenWrapDec 10, 201612 votes

Could do that if AP Shaco wasn't being deleted from the game.

SmileInABoxDec 10, 20167 votes

Just like AP kog, the resemblance is uncanny.

Troll for TrumpDec 10, 20161 votes

Yeah, and they're nerfing AP Kog too

DracocrashDec 10, 20161 votes

EXcept shacos winrate is 52.5%... They have tried to fix AD shaco with the recent back stab changes, so lets not give up hope yet.

AnagsDec 10, 20161 votes

He's over 50% top lane and jungle.

ElishevaDec 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ybp6vwLQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-12-10T01:06:28.321+0000)

shaco kit is too strong? u w0t m8?

shaco new early game is probably the worst i ever seen ever including nasus And now for some reasons they decided to nerf shaco who has his win rate at 50%

AND THEY STILL DIDNT FIXE AD SHACO

Haven't had a problem with it. You just can't 1 shot people starting at level one. Wait till lvl 3-6ish and you'll be fine.

EndlessCycleDec 10, 20162 votes

I've noticed every time Riot reworks a champion's kit, they put them into a position where they're too powerful with their new mechanics, so they nerf them to crap and leave them there. (See Morde)

Ulquiorra995Dec 10, 20162 votes

They already did so with AD Shaco by nuking his Backstab burst and Shiv damage. I think they've realized that they actually left AP Shaco with options to not be useless late so they are fixing that.

JQKAndreiDec 10, 20161 votes

shaco is op played ap top right now

Shac NorrisDec 10, 20164 votes

All they did in the ''rework'' reduce his early game power, they didn't give anything back except for the Q AP scaling, which took some power from his E.

paperbIadeDec 10, 20161 votes

was expecting LeeSin

VexingRavenDec 10, 20161 votes

Meanwhile in LeeSin land, you still absolutely dunk on people early while having top-tier utility that can will the late game easily if you're remotely good.

Yup, feels fair to me.

The EcdysiastDec 10, 20161 votes

But you can at least see Lee the whole time, and he can't magically create a body double to bait and block abilities that should only work on champions.

Point being, "Illusions" shouldn't be solid.

VexingRavenDec 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But you can at least see Lee the whole time, and he can't magically create a body double to bait and block abilities that should only work on champions.

Point being, "Illusions" shouldn't be solid.

Uh, Leblanc and Wukong would like to differ.

The EcdysiastDec 11, 20161 votes

Uh... Those are broken too.

Any champion whose ability states in plain English that it is an ILLUSION and not a solid clone of the champion should not have a solid clone.

I could understand targeted things being able to travel to the target instead of the real one, but skillshots should not be blocked by illusions. You can't just tell Ashe's ult to stop halfway in midair.

VexingRavenDec 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Uh... Those are broken too.

Any champion whose ability states in plain English that it is an ILLUSION and not a solid clone of the champion should not have a solid clone.

I could understand targeted things being able to travel to the target instead of the real one, but skillshots should not be blocked by illusions. You can't just tell Ashe's ult to stop halfway in midair.

Why are they broken? That's literally the only survivability in Shaco's kit, and his only option for evening attempting to fight somebody he can't instantly burst. Same for Wukong, it's his ONLY survivability. LB is debatable but again, it's the only real survivability she has except for just getting out, which isn't an option if you intend to actually kill somebody now since so much of her damage is loaded into her gap closer/escape.

The EcdysiastDec 14, 20161 votes

That's exactly it. For LB and Shaco, they should not have survivability. That's not what an Assassin is supposed to have. Wukong doesn't even need it, since he becomes invisible and builds bruiser anyway. He can build Lifesteal and defenses effectively, so it's not his only survivability. It's just an added strength that the champions should not have.

Shaco is deserving of any nerfs to his damage that stem from this ability to survive. But if they took away the tanklike body shield that explodes into a magic damage nuke, then maybe he wouldn't need nerfs.

VexingRavenDec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That's exactly it. For LB and Shaco, they should not have survivability. That's not what an Assassin is supposed to have. Wukong doesn't even need it, since he becomes invisible and builds bruiser anyway. He can build Lifesteal and defenses effectively, so it's not his only survivability. It's just an added strength that the champions should not have.

Shaco is deserving of any nerfs to his damage that stem from this ability to survive. But if they took away the tanklike body shield that explodes into a magic damage nuke, then maybe he wouldn't need nerfs.

Every assassin has a means to either survive or get out after killing their target. Zed goes untargetable, and has his shadow to jump out with. Fizz is Fizz. Kha'Zix gets a second activation on his stealth. Talon has his ult which makes him invisible, and now can just run right over walls for an easy escape. This is all on top of being able to engage with a different ability. Face it, assassins have the tools to get in, kill or heavily damage somebody, and get out. Otherwise they're just useless unless fed (which was what Riot stated they wanted to fix).

Shaco has his ult, which you claim to be so OP, yet doesn't actually protect him at all except from skillshots (if the enemy hits the right one, which isn't hard to do). He has nothing else. He has to use his Q to get in, otherwise he's just trying to walk up to the ADC and hoping they don't decide to right-click him.

Leblanc you may have a point, since she has her dash, except that's a major part of her combo. Again though, if you just attack the right leblanc, the only thing blocked is skillshots. And it triggers when she's low, so I'm assuming you've got SOME kind of AOE or targeted ability that can just get around the clone.

If you're using these clones to body block, you're silver at best. If body blocking clones are denying you kills, you're probably silver at best. Most of the time if you're escaping it's best to use these clones to trick the enemy into chasing and attacking the wrong one, not for body blocking.

The EcdysiastDec 17, 20161 votes

Fear.

And you even said it's "not hard" to hit the correct Shaco clone with skillshots, but then said the complete opposite by claiming its main use is to confuse the enemy into focusing on it. Those directly counter each other.

The fact the clones can be hit by attacks that wouldn't normally stop on something other than an enemy champion is the issue. And when going AP, it doesn't need to body block so much as it stands to zone the enemy for the threat of the heavy damage it carries.

It's ridiculous to see someone defend Shaco but agree to hate Leblanc even though her clone is now uncontrollable and she has zero option to build AD instead of AP. And in case you forgot, no, the clone no longer spawns when she's low and will die from 1 point of single-target damage from an enemy. If you aren't even up-to-date on the champions we're discussing, why are you here?

Control wards do not work on Shaco, so his biggest vulnerability was removed from the game. Hence, to avoid removing invisibility from the game entirely the champions with it are seeing damage nerfs. There's no unfairness in the decision to do so. It's simply delayed for the champions who can't effectively build two completely different damage types.

VexingRavenDec 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Fear.

And you even said it's "not hard" to hit the correct Shaco clone with skillshots, but then said the complete opposite by claiming its main use is to confuse the enemy into focusing on it. Those directly counter each other.

No they don't. You shouldn't be trying to block with the clone because it's obvious who is the real Shaco and makes it easy to hit you. That's why you try to confuse the enemy into focusing the clone.

The fact the clones can be hit by attacks that wouldn't normally stop on something other than an enemy champion is the issue. And when going AP, it doesn't need to body block so much as it stands to zone the enemy for the threat of the heavy damage it carries.

Again, if it wasn't affected by champion-only abilities it wouldn't be useful as a tool for deception. Yasuo can just straight up block everything, Fizz can dodge everything. What's wrong with tricking people into using abilities on the wrong target? As for the AP Shaco piece, he was just nerfed (and they nerfed the ult damage, although I think they should've nerfed the AP ratio on it instead)

It's ridiculous to see someone defend Shaco but agree to hate Leblanc even though her clone is now uncontrollable and she has zero option to build AD instead of AP. And in case you forgot, no, the clone no longer spawns when she's low and will die from 1 point of single-target damage from an enemy. If you aren't even up-to-date on the champions we're discussing, why are you here?

I absolutely did not agree to hate Leblanc, I just agreed that you may have a point about the clone being unnecessary for survivability.

Control wards do not work on Shaco, so his biggest vulnerability was removed from the game. Hence, to avoid removing invisibility from the game entirely the champions with it are seeing damage nerfs. There's no unfairness in the decision to do so. It's simply delayed for the champions who can't effectively build two completely different damage types.

Pink wards were never Shaco's biggest vulnerability. I can count on one hand how many times a pink ward truly stopped me from ganking a lane. The only issue with pink wards was having them suddenly dropped on you in a teamfight when you were in a vulnerable position. And his Teamfight is already weak because he has no survivability or escape besides his clone. Now you don't even need pink wards, sometimes you just get screwed by a random skillshot or AOE ability revealing you.

The EcdysiastDec 24, 20161 votes

Again, if it is possible at all to confuse the enemy into shifting focus to the clone, then that directly counters the claim that it's easy to hit the real one with skillshots instead. Not from blocking directly, but from the attack being sent in the complete opposite direction: towards the clone.

Tricking people with positioning and movement is reasonable. "Tricking" people with invisibility is not. That's why other games don't make it complete invisibility. A shimmer would be fine even if sweepers were removed, since this game's abundance of particle effects would be enough to hide it in most scenarios while still giving the option for a very focused player to follow it.

VexingRavenJan 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Again, if it is possible at all to confuse the enemy into shifting focus to the clone, then that directly counters the claim that it's easy to hit the real one with skillshots instead. Not from blocking directly, but from the attack being sent in the complete opposite direction: towards the clone.

Tricking people with positioning and movement is reasonable. "Tricking" people with invisibility is not. That's why other games don't make it complete invisibility. A shimmer would be fine even if sweepers were removed, since this game's abundance of particle effects would be enough to hide it in most scenarios while still giving the option for a very focused player to follow it.

I'm sorry it seems you're still misunderstanding. It's easy to hit the real Shaco, if you know which one is real hence why deception is the best use of the clone. Also plenty of other games do have complete invisibility, have you played (other moba we probably can't mention here)? Also if you add a shimmer you're basically making Shaco completely (instead of mostly) at the mercy of his opponent's skill level and their number of skillshots.