Ap itemization feels pretty bland atm

Koechophe·May 24, 2018·31 votes·13,107 views

With AD itemization, there are different items for different classes and types. ADC rework is trying to broaden the diversity, but other build paths can be viable (On-hit, caster/adc, blue build, etc). There's also AD items for fighters that help give tankiness, and AD items for bruisers, and AD assassin items... With mages, you've got a single core of items that all do relatively the same thing. There aren't items that are better for long range, and then better for divers/assassins, they all build generally the same thing.

Part of the problem is that there is really very few optimal AD items, and part of the problem is purely just that there's far less options, and even the options that we do have feel very similar (playstyle wise, void staff feels like deathcap, which feels like morello's and liandry's, etc. None of them change how you play.) If you look back over the years, there have been significantly more AD items added than AP. Aside from the hextech belts, there hasn't been any legitimately new AP items in ages.

Could we get some better item diversity for APs?

76 Comments

ShablagooMay 24, 201810 votes

You mean items like item 3907 which were added but no one builds. In the end of the day mages and ap champions are going to realize they can't have diversity because almost all ap champions need the same fking thing. Mana, cdr, and Ap. There is always a better item then these new items introduced. It seems like the recent ap item changes made the build diversity worse. But thats because ap champions are really not even as diverse as ad champions are.

Kitten of EvilMay 24, 201820 votes

To me, that suggests a lack of effort on Riot's part. Yes, AP champions usually want the same 3 or 4 stats (mana, CDR, AP, pen/health). But that's also true for ADCs (crit, AS, MS, and AD), assassins (AD, MS, and lethality), and vanguards (MR, armor, HP). Just look at the Zeal items for an example of different niches for items with the same three stats. Phantom Dancer is meant for dueling. Statikk for waveclear. Rapidfire for sieging. Runaan's for on-hits.

Frankly, Riot could try harder to make AP items with passives or actives that benefit different subclasses of mage. Like "If you hit an enemy with a spell from further than 900 range, X happens" would only appeal to artillery mages, or "when you land a spell on an enemy, gain X effect for the next 1.5 seconds" would benefit burst mages.

It is possible to design interesting items for every class.

Spellbinder's problem is that requires an enormous amount of charging to pay off (1 charge per spell cast is awful), and the payoff is just... more of the stats the item already gives. That's not an interesting item.

TonyTonyMordecaiMay 24, 20183 votes

Spellbinder should at least charge while moving, like Luden's did. At least, the way it was designed seemed like it would. Maybe it's just me.

Anu3isIIMay 24, 20182 votes

I wouldn't say exactly like Luden's. As it is supposed to be some kind of roaming item, I would suggest making it charge when moving out-of-combat.

Luden's encouraged spamming and kiting, while Spellbinder is supposed to be for strong engages and roaming to other lanes.

TonyTonyMordecaiMay 25, 20181 votes

That's actually a good idea, and would help promote the "high moment" it's supposed to provide when the full active is on.

Kitten of EvilMay 25, 20181 votes

I believe Luden's still gives you that same effect.

Spellbinder's problem is that the only thing it gives you is AP and movespeed, so... damage and movespeed. Many mages don't care about the latter, and the former is competing with Deathcap/Void Staff for damage.

And am I going to choose conditional 80 AP that takes 100 spells to use and lasts for 4 seconds, or am I going to choose a permanent 40% total AP? The choice is obvious.

TonyTonyMordecaiMay 25, 20181 votes

Mentioning that, does that mean that Rabadons should be removed? I could be wrong, but if things are being balanced around the existence of Rabadon's passive, then that's bad for those possibilities of when it isn't built.

Then again I could be preaching some total BS that I'm coincidentally buzzwording from some previous Riot developer post... And if I am, I apologize.

Kitten of EvilMay 25, 20182 votes

Rabadon's is intended to fill the same effect as Infinity Edge. It's meant to be a multiplicative source of damage, but for AP champions. The problem is that more flat AP doesn't track the same way as critical strikes do on AD carries, who have a point-and-click source of damage that scales with Infinity Edge and hits reliably 1.5-2 times per second.

Also, if mages had a number of other options with meaningful choices based on their mage class or playstyle, not everyone would just build Rabadon's. "More flat AP" wouldn't always be the right choice!

Even now, Void Staff fills the same role of "just give me more damage" if your enemy team is stacking MR.

I just want to see mage itemization where there's a meaningful choice rather than... do I want damage or more damage. Perhaps artillery mages could be rewarded with mana regen or temporary MPen for landing a long-range spell, or battlemages could be given MR and armor for each time they hit a nearby enemy champion (up to a cap). I don't know, I'm not a game designer, but AP items could do something other than "more damage."

TonyTonyMordecaiMay 25, 20182 votes

No I get it, there's oodles of choices for Juggernauts and Tanks and Fighters and to the same degree Marksmen, but all mage items sort of fill the same niche, which just happens to be the broad majority of where it comes in handy (mana and damage, with some extra cases of utility from the Hextech items). I was just hypothesizing that maybe Rabadon's was a similar case of old DFG where it curved design and balance choices.

Maybe have some sort of item that grants stacking power for hitting skillshots on champions, and losing those stacks if you miss (artillery mages), or even an item that didn't give attack speed, but let you deal bonus damage to minions or an aura that increased minions' damage to enemy minions (whatever they're called, the split-push mages)

Kitten of EvilMay 25, 20182 votes

That's true, I think original Rabadon's was a bit design-warping. "Here, have some more damage and nothing else" is hard to balance, because it doesn't really change how you play. Either it's way too strong when it adds too much damage, or it's too weak and nobody buys it. Old DFG had the same problem. It was basically "Active: have 20% more damage for your next combo".

Maybe have some sort of item that grants stacking power for hitting skillshots on champions, and losing those stacks if you miss (artillery mages), or even an item that didn't give attack speed, but let you deal bonus damage to minions or an aura that increased minions' damage to enemy minions (whatever they're called, the split-push mages)

Right, I'd like to see more items like this. Riot could easily make AP items that benefit specific types of mages or specific playstyles, but they've decided not to. I know there are certain AP champions who would love a split-push option (like me whenever I play Fizz).

TonyTonyMordecaiMay 25, 20181 votes

Yeah, I think stuff like that would help to balance some mages that fell out of favor for not providing anything better than what other prominent mages already offer, sort of like comparing Lux and Brand support: which one gets kills better with less item dependency?

ShablagooMay 24, 20181 votes

And you've stated it with your example, ad is far more unique in terms of stats compared to ap champions. For example no two ad champions use the same stats compared to ap. For example the skrimisher subclass is almost all ad with the exception being jax that actually even builds ad anyway. Also I believe that it wasnt until the assassin rework and maybe juggernaut rework too, when item passive literally became core for so many of the ad class. Black clever for juggs and duskblade for them too, however mages still and almost always have remained almost always relevant and offered so much to teams even without these items. Simply because ap and mostly mages in general offer so much utility to teams. So the question isnt really what items do ap champions need, its more why do ap champions need more passive or actives?

Kitten of EvilMay 24, 20183 votes

The problem is that AP itemization is really bland, as the OP said. There's no build diversity because the items frankly aren't that different. Whether you're a burst mage (Brand, Annie), an artillery mage (Lux, Vel'Koz, Xerath), or a battlemage (Anivia, Taliyah, Swain), you buy the same items.

It basically goes like this:

I need CDR/mana to survive the laning phase, so I'll buy whichever item 3802 upgrade is better. I need boots, and there's basically only one choice there: item 3020 . (Merc's need an update to address the rampant irreducible CC, but that's a separate discussion). I need to ramp up on damage, so I'll buy item 3165 or item 3151 , whichever will give me more damage in this matchup. 300 HP is okay I guess (although artillery mages would love a different stat), but they both offer it so what's the difference? I need more damage, so I'll buy item 3135 or item 3089 , whichever will give me more damage in this matchup.

As you can see, there are usually about 2 choices for each step, but the choice is always between: A gives me more damage and B gives me more damage, so I'll take whichever gives me the most. The itemization is just bland and flat.

I've already compared it to ADC itemization, but we can also compare it to AD assassin itemization. Basically, the stats they want are: AD, lethality/armor pen, and movespeed. But they have options that offer meaningful choice and vary significantly based on playstyle and champion. Why? Because their items have strong but distinct passives and actives.

Going to get in their face and stay there? You probably want item 3071 to shred their armor and offer you a bit of beef. Prefer to burst them down from invisibility or ganks? You want item 3147 , helps you sweep wards and gives you an up-front burst of damage. Need to roam? You want item 3142 for its out of combat MS and its active. If you're diving more and taking a lot of punishment after securing a kill, there's item 3026 . Note that these stats aren't even that great for an assassin, but as an item many of them buy it. Why? Because its active is tailored to an assassin playstyle.

Mages need items like that, items that play differently based on their active/passive design rather than just "here, have damage."

ShablagooMay 24, 20181 votes

Your as assassin example i counter-productive, because if you see ad assassin literally only have one choice for all but one section getting beefy, both being eon and then bc which isnt even theirs. In fact the only ad class with such item diversity was adc's, but again it seem more like its niche and troll builds. Adc used streaks, BC, DB, DD, divers only using DB from assassins, but they are closer to assassin then not. But that isnt unique to just ad, mages all use each others items, in fact Liandries is a battle mage item yet artillery and burst mages use it too. Morello, became a all purpose item for everyone. In fact if you want to complain about ap itemization then complain about ap assassin itemization they have almost no items specialized for them.

I guess assassins need items then, no special items for the slayers or divers too lets give them items too then. They all build the same items, items literally do nothing to ruin game balance. Think about it add a new item then it just replaces another item then more items get taken out. Spellbinder was added but never used, if it gets buffed then another item will be removed from builds. itemization being bland isnt a good reason at all add more and more items, unless ap champions are struggling completely then yes, and it isnt items that is doing it, they jsut overall need buffs.

Kitten of EvilMay 25, 20181 votes

Your as assassin example i counter-productive, because if you see ad assassin literally only have one choice for all but one section getting beefy, both being eon and then bc which isnt even theirs

That's just not true though. Assasins like Talon build Black Cleaver as a core item, and it's not unheard of on others like Rengar. The point was there are several items that appeal to different champions and different playstyles, even though they all have the same or similar stats. Their passives and actives make them appeal to different champions and different playstyles.

mages all use each others items, in fact Liandries is a battle mage item yet artillery and burst mages use it too. Morello, became a all purpose item for everyone. In fact if you want to complain about ap itemization then complain about ap assassin itemization they have almost no items specialized for them.

Mages all use each other's items because the items are poorly designed and don't work with different playstyles. They're just "here, have more damage." And that's the exact reason Liandry's is still bought on everyone (at least, if they don't need Grievous Wounds). It's literally just... are you a mage who needs more damage? Here, have more damage.

THAT IS NOT AN INTERESTING OR WELL-DESIGNED ITEM. All carry items give more damage. That's why they're carry items.

Now, if Riot released an item that gave you 80 AP, 10 CDR, and some meaningful reward for landing spells from 900+ range, who would use it? Artillery mages and nobody else. Because it would be a waste to buy it on, say, Annie, Katarina, or Brand. That's the sort of meaningful itemization I'm talking about.

Spellbinder is a poorly-designed item as I explained above because: A) it provides only AP and movespeed (which not all mages even want). B) Its active charges WAY too slowly, at 1 charge per spellcast. C) when you activate it, it gives you... more of the same stats it already gave you. Woohoo! What a unique and interesting reward!

It's always going to be either worse than Deathcap or better, because it fills the same role. Damage.

ShablagooMay 25, 20181 votes

And i never said it wasnt core, and its funny because you are still proving my point more for two regards. One being that assassin dont even have enough items which is why the build clever and why its core, the armor shred and movespeed are to good to pass on if the health wasnt there they would still build it, in fact the health is just an added bonus regardless of if it was there it would still be built. The second is all assassin build all the items because they are the only items they have, and not only that BUT THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME PLAYSTYLE, all of them like out of combat movespeed, all have and unseen aspect to them, all of them need survivability. Yet almost all of them, in fact all of them have the exact same core, item 3147 item 3142 item 3071 , because they are the only items they can get and appeal to them because they all have the exact same playstyle. You literally will never see an assassin not build duskblade, why because it is the best item. So regardless of if you add more items it does nothing but add another op item to the roaster.

Probably because mages all need more dmg? Also is the item your suggesting not jsut more dmg? Another thing are you not rewarded by hitting you spells and doing dmg in the first place. You dont see a problem with artillery mages getting even more of an advantage with the amount of distance they have? Comet doesnt do that for them?

Also again why? What unique and rewarding passive and active would not break mages? They already provide utility with there spells, they can get more dmg when they want, mana literally isnt even an issue anymore even with the nerfs. It actually doesnt make any sense to just add an item because mages feel their itemization is bland. And if you cant give a concrete factual non-bias reason for adding something that might potentially break the game again like duskblade, I honestly do see why riot would add another thing that would potentially ruin balance even more then it is.

Kitten of EvilMay 25, 20181 votes

Probably because mages all need more dmg? Also is the item your suggesting not jsut more dmg? Another thing are you not rewarded by hitting you spells and doing dmg in the first place. You dont see a problem with artillery mages getting even more of an advantage with the amount of distance they have? Comet doesnt do that for them?

Not necessarily. Artillery mages could be rewarded with mana regen for landing a long-range spell, to reward them for aiming well. Or battlemages could be rewarded with temporary MR/armor buffs for being in the middle of the action, as they're designed to be. Damage doesn't have to be the only option.

And the new runes are part of a large problem of damage creep in this game, which I'd like to see addressed. Comet is not the worst example of this by far. But honestly, I'd like to see ALL the damage runes tuned down regardless of class.

Also again why? What unique and rewarding passive and active would not break mages? They already provide utility with there spells, they can get more dmg when they want, mana literally isnt even an issue anymore even with the nerfs. It actually doesnt make any sense to just add an item because mages feel their itemization is bland.

I think we disagree on game design then. I believe itemization should not be bland for any class, and I believe that the world's finest (or at least best-paid) design team should be able to come up with items designed for specific mage subclasses. I'm frankly not sure why you think that's so impossible.

Battlemages could benefit from conditional resistances while they're in combat with enemy champions, or artillery mages could benefit from tenacity or damage reduction when the gap's closed on them if they land a hit on an enemy. The details don't matter, my point is I can clearly give you examples where certain mage subclasses would benefit that aren't just "more damage."

Just because Riot hasn't done it yet doesn't mean it can't be done.

ShablagooMay 25, 20181 votes

Again balance issues, tbh I really hope the spear doesnt get released, dmg reduction based on ad is going to be broken, why because its going to be abused on so many champions that shouldnt use it. The same thing will happen will happen with the items you speak of especially the armor/mr, I can already see akali or kat abusing it. Riot shouldnt add any more items till they properly balance the game, first thing fix jungle changes, which made two or three champions for sure wins.

I think it isnt a reason too add items in, and I dont think its impossible I think its irresponsible. For example the new spear item is already seeming ridiculous, and riot has literally ever made a good item that hasnt either ended up being, overpowered and ended up being issues(Duskblade, redepmtion, ardent, and many more) or useless spellbinder. instead of adding items just because people are bored with items( Is that really the funniest aspect of the game for you?), they should balanced the game, because thats what the first thing that should be done. And yes we do disagree because I dont see how it is a legitimate reason riot should stop adding items that break game balance even more.

The Yetii RiderMay 25, 20181 votes

There is no diversity among vanguards. That is a lie.

item 3194 Is the best MR item. People don't build item 3001 and they don't build item 3065 (Abyssal Mask sees more play on gasp mages, look at that diversity and SV is a juggernaut item). item 3143 is the armor item. People don't build item 3110 and they don't build item 3742 . You shouldn't talk about classes you don't understand.

Kitten of EvilMay 26, 20181 votes

You're coming in hot here, and I'm honestly not sure why you're being so hostile. Also, from the information I'm seeing, you're wrong---although if you have another source of statistics that prove your point, I'd be glad to take a look.

https://champion.gg/champion/Ornn/Top? http://na.op.gg/champion/ornn/statistics/top

Ornn commonly builds Abyssal and Merc's but not Spirit Visage or Adaptive Helm.

https://champion.gg/champion/Maokai/Top? http://na.op.gg/champion/maokai/statistics/top

Maokai commonly builds Spirit Visage but not Abyssal or Adaptive. As for armor, he commonly builds Sunfire Cape over Randuin's.

https://champion.gg/champion/Leona/Support? http://na.op.gg/champion/leona/statistics/support

Leona rushes none of the items you mentioned.

In fact, none of the common builds feature Adaptive Helm, even though you say it's flatly the "best" MR item.

I'm seeing a pretty healthy diversity of build on these three champions, because even though they're all vanguards, they play differently.

BluupMay 25, 20181 votes

I think if they made it take less time to charge then spellbinder would actually be a totally fine item. You know, how like Shiv and RFC don't take 100 actual auto attacks to fully charge.

ZapMyHeartMay 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You mean items like which were added but no one builds. In the end of the day mages and ap champions are going to realize they can't have diversity because almost all ap champions need the same fking thing. Mana, cdr, and Ap. There is always a better item then these new items introduced. It seems like the recent ap item changes made the build diversity worse. But thats because ap champions are really not even as diverse as ad champions are.

Why can't Rito give us defensive AP mage-stat items that also have a kajillion stats that reduce AD damage and lock them out of the fight? (e.g. Spear of Shojin).

Personally, I would love to see an AP mage item that blocks all crit damage for 5 seconds, preventing them from dying so fast.

TwinkieProMay 24, 20187 votes

The problem I see with AP itemization is that all AP champions scale with their abilities. AD champs have a plethora of options they scale with: Attack speed Auto attacks Critical strike abilities

Compare this with AP champions that are almost entirely reliant on their abilities. I can understand why its hard.

KoechopheMay 24, 20188 votes

Even so, passive effects on AD champs are a lot more varied, imho. And AP champs also scale with Pen and CDr tbf

TwinkieProMay 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Even so, passive effects on AD champs are a lot more varied, imho. And AP champs also scale with Pen and CDr tbf

I didn't include pen or CDR because there are AD champions that do that too. My point was that AD is a lot more varied in general compared to AP.

Champion SkinMay 24, 20181 votes

There are two mages I can think of who benefit from attack speed Azir Orianna (passive)

well there is also Kayle if you somehow count her as a mage and Karma who gets lower R cooldown from Auto attacking enemy champions (which makes attack speed useful but to be able to stand and auto attack enemies usually requires a more durable bruiser/tank style build rather than a mage build)

There are also some mages with effects tied to their auto attacks but they don't really benefit from attack speed in anyway other then being able to get them off more quickly (which isn't much of a benefit) Lux (passive) TwistedFate (W and E) Xerath (passive) Viktor (Q) Velkoz (passive, AA's refresh stack duration)... and more

Riot do like to do things with mages auto attacks but it usually doesn't scale with or benefit from attack speed

DrCyanideMay 24, 20182 votes

Riot's mentioned before that they like Mage auto attacks to have some effect as a way to draw mages into AA range and give opponents a way to play against them. That's why all the Artillery Mages Xerath Ziggs Lux Velkoz have passives that they have to auto attack, to draw them in.

Aatrox Mid 1v5May 24, 20186 votes

Thats exactly what they set out to fix a couple months ago, but to no one's suprise, mages still build the exact same items, just in a different order from last time.

Just the LipMay 24, 20186 votes

There's only 2 ways to build your mage,

With Zhonas,

Or without Zhonas.

i end up building the same items every game except few games i need zhona, and thats only 1 item different.

Builds feel boring and broken, must build the meta items or get stomped into the ground.

JaspersMay 24, 20184 votes

I think it's the 'magic pen' items that make it stale. There are only 3 magic pen items, nearly all mages build Void Staff if there is any tank. If there are none, just get boots and Orb.

They could add another item that builds from Orb that isn't Morellos but the penetration has a unique passive on it, so you don't have to build Grevious wounds just to get then extra pen.

I'd also like an OP items to build from Glacial Shroud again, so there is another option for AP defence item if you don't need zhonyas.

Teridax68May 24, 20183 votes

There was a point where AP itemization was known for having all the cool actives, and AD itemization was mostly stat sticks. At this point, it feels like the situation has flipped, as AD itemization is not only more diverse, but also far more interesting on a per-item basis. We've gotten wave upon wave of item passes where we received plenty of new AD items, including two passes for marksmen, one pass for juggernauts (only AD ones though), one pass for assassins (only AD ones too), and now fighters (also only AD ones), but essentially just one, maybe two passes for mages, both of which mostly made itemization worse. At this point, it feels like the difference between AD and AP is fairly arbitrary, but only because AD builds have cannibalized much of what was typically reserved for AP, namely spell-based burst, interesting actives and passives, and so on. Whereas AD items are specially catered towards many different classes, all AP champions still continue to draw from essentially the same, much smaller pool of items, many of which have been bent out of shape precisely because they have to cater to radically different champion types (Rylai's is a prime example of this). More recently, there's also been this issue where AP itemization has been focusing way too much on mana, at the expense of manaless champions, but also at that of mana users, whose mana has been slashed just to force them into mana itemization. As such, it feels like AP got the short end of the stick repeatedly, and at this point I'm not sure if massively increasing the number of AP options would really help the situation as much as it could, though it could certainly help.

saltranMay 24, 20182 votes

ADC rework is trying to broaden the diversity

Really? If that was the case they failed since Crit builds will be even more monotone witht the change: Right now we have ER + Zeal+ IE build and Zeal + IE + Zeal.

WIth the change there will be only the Zeal + IE + Zeal build.

IfnethMay 24, 20182 votes

Yeah. It’s really frustrating. AP Mages just want Luden’s Echo and Morellonomicon. Battle Mages just want Rod of Ages and Archangel’s Staff. Your class determines your core.

From there, your options are pretty limited. Liandry’s Torment needs Rylai’s Crystal Scepter to function optimally on mages without inherent crowd control on their continuous damage spells. Void Staff is cheap but not as efficient unless the enemy has Magic Resistance. Deathcap is hard to build and useless if the enemy builds Magic Resistance. Defensive items are best when bought early and delay your later spikes.

I wish we had more diversity.

Pika FoxMay 24, 20182 votes

Literally just got a good AP item update that did its job....

CasterGilgameshMay 24, 20181 votes

we got one maybe two ap finishing items mids ap mages can use item 3905 item 3907 and one item for items we already build made item 3916 this is hardly doing its job at most its throwing a small bone mages need way more then two new items

Pika FoxMay 24, 20181 votes

Good thing most of the others also got a rework then. Seriously, you got an update the last major patch or two ago. You literally have no room to complain theres no options or riot never does anything for you.

CasterGilgameshMay 24, 20181 votes

mages do have room to complain if the changes hardly fix the issues which is what that last up date did [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Pika FoxMay 24, 20181 votes

The issues were fixed. I dont see morellos being the only viable build. The only reasonable complaint mages have is glp is still garbage for most, and the ones who needed its old build got left to die without a replacement.

FurriesAreHotMay 24, 20182 votes

Thing is, you gotta look at AD subclasses.

ADCs: Almost exclusively all crit builds with the same path. Exceptions are everywhere. Bruisers/Fighters: Cleaver, usually defensive item with a hint of offense like Deadmans, the rest is history Divers: I dont interact with them enough to know.

AP Users are very limited in archetypes. You got bursty magic man, you got aoe magic man, you got long range magic man. you have the 3 characters that are tank-oriented that build AP items. and you have... diana.

Not saying AP users couldn't use some love, keep that in mind.

BakedLotionMay 24, 20182 votes

item 3089 item 3135 item 3165 item 3285 item 3157 item 3020

This is literally what any ap champion builds.

And they all just give damage and penetration besides zhonya's.

Why do AD champs get SHIT tons of defensive options but mages get zhonyas and banshees? They get all the good actives All the good passives All the sustain???

Fuck, nerf rabadons and whatever the fuck you want just give mages some choices. More actives, more passives. And a viable sustain option

Can someone explain to me why it's fair for AD champions to be able to auto a minion and gain half their hp back, but when a mage does it it isn't fair?

If anything, AD champs are outbursting mages right now anyway.

The Great DuckMay 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This is literally what any ap champion builds.

And they all just give damage and penetration besides zhonya's.

Why do AD champs get SHIT tons of defensive options but mages get zhonyas and banshees? They get all the good actives All the good passives All the sustain???

Fuck, nerf rabadons and whatever the fuck you want just give mages some choices. More actives, more passives. And a viable sustain option

Can someone explain to me why it's fair for AD champions to be able to auto a minion and gain half their hp back, but when a mage does it it isn't fair?

If anything, AD champs are outbursting mages right now anyway.

They also don't have any HEALTH with those resistances. And the only AD I've seen do any real bursting in the past few months is maybe a Draven the other night as he chunked someone with no hp/armor in 3 autos. Other than that it always takes like 9+ autos in which there's loads of time to nuke that AD for attacking at 550 range.

BakedLotionMay 24, 20183 votes

are u really telling me a vayne doesn't 3 shot you? please

Or an Ezreal killing u in under 2 seconds

Notice how all the most powerful junglers right now, and for a while, are all AD champions

9 autos? LMFAO please more like 5 max.

Maw gives a shield, which is effective health. BT gives a shield Don't even need to tell you how powerful qss is. Cleaver has hp. Go have a look on the PBE for even more upcoming items.

I also don't see any health in the mage build i just showed besides morello???

i also never said ADC, i said AD champions

The Great DuckMay 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

are u really telling me a vayne doesn't 3 shot you? please

Or an Ezreal killing u in under 2 seconds

Notice how all the most powerful junglers right now, and for a while, are all AD champions

9 autos? LMFAO please more like 5 max.

Maw gives a shield, which is effective health. BT gives a shield Don't even need to tell you how powerful qss is. Cleaver has hp. Go have a look on the PBE for even more upcoming items.

I also don't see any health in the mage build i just showed besides morello???

i also never said ADC, i said AD champions

You really need to take a deep breath and watch the replays in slow motion. They don't kill jack shit in 3 autos. Vayne hasn't burst me since that 1 game during the few weeks where her Q dmg with crit went unchecked.

CasterGilgameshMay 24, 20181 votes

adc do tons of burst with crit and have everyone guarding them because of how op they are also you cant dodge or miss autos while a lot of mages have spells that can be dodged or blocked

CasterGilgameshMay 24, 20182 votes

it feels bland to you know? lol its been bland since season 3

JamareeMay 24, 20181 votes

I think a problem with that is giving mages more items would have people complaining they are too tanky or unenjoyable to fight.

Like, with zhonya and imagine another ap armor item, assassins would be in a more hateful place then they are now, but that is just how I think things would go.

KoechopheMay 24, 201813 votes

More items =/= more tanky mage items. We've got more than enough items that give hp/ap, I'm talking about giving a bit more flavor to the build instead. Perhaps making some under-used items a bit more viable. Can't even remember the last time I saw anyone but azir build Nashors, and Liandry's is equally underused

Cosmic LuxMay 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

More items =/= more tanky mage items. We've got more than enough items that give hp/ap, I'm talking about giving a bit more flavor to the build instead. Perhaps making some under-used items a bit more viable. Can't even remember the last time I saw anyone but azir build Nashors, and Liandry's is equally underused

in what world is liandry’s underused rofl

JamareeMay 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

More items =/= more tanky mage items. We've got more than enough items that give hp/ap, I'm talking about giving a bit more flavor to the build instead. Perhaps making some under-used items a bit more viable. Can't even remember the last time I saw anyone but azir build Nashors, and Liandry's is equally underused

That is because so few champions can effectively users nashor’s tooth, Kayle Teemo and Azir are the only three that come to mind, same thing with Liandry’s, few champions have enough natural cc to utilize the rest of liandry’s so the hextech item is just better in most cases. Creating an ap item that won’t just shove out the viability of another is tough.

It isn’t like AD items have barely used items too, can’t remember the last time I saw the spell shield item or last whisper items over lethality.

Tzuyu Is My BiasMay 24, 20183 votes

I don't think you would need to make nashors or liandry fit for a larger champion pool, instead we need more items like those that work for different situations. That is how we get more varied build options depending on the game.