We keep Riven animation cancel? why? why is Riven allowed to be so freaking stupid cause of her animation cancel but we remove other champions animation cancels? I really don't know what riot thinking anymore
PLEASE DONT SAY "CUZ ITZ HARD TO DO M8" BECAUSE ITS NOT
Joxcab5 votesHasn't played a single game on Riven ( as proven by http://championmasterylookup.derpthemeus.com/summoner/?summoner=Lord%20Kuma&region=NA ), check. Doesn't understand context, check. Is calling Riven easy, check. Doesn't understand the difference between abusive versus balanced around, check. Doesn't understand the difference between additional power and core reason a champion is actually playable, check. Doesn't understand the difference in apples and oranges, check.
Lord Kuma2 votes[deleted]
Joxcab3 votesInvalid argument, check. Invalid argument, check. Ad hominem implication, check. Is Diamond 3 but doesn't understand Riven is one of the most difficult champions in the entire game which multiple pro players and highest ranking players in the entire world all say and agree upon.
How about you get an actual argument? Rank doesn't make facts any less correct, nor does it make them any more correct. Those champions are only the "true oppressive" ones in your opinion. Which given your apparent lack of knowledge so far, isn't very impressive.
HalcyonDweller2 votesYou used several ad hominems of your own too.
Why come out with guns blazing? The player clearly has an idea to discuss. It might have been poorly phrased, but it's still coming from a real person. You're not proving them wrong, just insulting them and making yourself look like a bully.
Be the bigger person. Not the bigger ego.
Joxcab1 votesCan you quote said examples of my ad hominem then? I honestly cannot see any save for possibly the last line.
I was simply stating facts. He hasn't played Riven at all. That in itself isn't an argument, but fairly relevant because it could be a potential explanation for why one might believe Riven is easy.
He didn't understand the context of the animation cancel removals, which is simply fact, because if he did understand, he wouldn't have made the post. Renekton and Graves were already strong and had additional power. Graves' cancel was a bug and Renekton's was because he could cancel up to 4 times with Tiamat (3 times without).
He was saying Riven's cancels aren't difficult, which is equatable to calling her easy because her entire playing style relies entirely on cancels.
Abusive versus balanced around is referring to the context issue.
Additional power versus core identity is referring to the context issue.
Apples and oranges was just a phrase because of how vastly different Graves/Renekton's cases were from Riven's.
I have not been attacking him directly nor have I been dismissing his arguments because of any of his own personal flaws.
The only possible case I see is my very last line, which I can concede, was unwarranted.
HalcyonDweller2 votesAn entire comment that sparked your fisticuffs with each other in the first place.
Hasn't played a single game on Riven ( as proven by http://championmasterylookup.derpthemeus.com/summoner/?summoner=Lord%20Kuma&region=NA ), check. Doesn't understand context, check. Is calling Riven easy, check. Doesn't understand the difference between abusive versus balanced around, check. Doesn't understand the difference between additional power and core reason a champion is actually playable, check. Doesn't understand the difference in apples and oranges, check.
Jacøb Rıven2 votesThey may be ad hominems, but they aren't aimed at his skill level unlike OP's here. There is a lesser of two evils here.
HalcyonDweller2 votesYou are correct, but two wrongs don't make a right.
Jacøb Rıven1 votesTrue.
Joxcab1 votesThose are actual facts though. And I'm not attacking the person, I am attacking his argument and foundation of his argument. Where is the insults or part where I dismissed his argument by attacking him as a person?
HalcyonDweller1 votesThe purpose of the statements has to be taken into account. Pretty much all of those statements serve to put-down the person.
Hasn't played a single game on Riven... check. Doesn't understand context, check.
Shows that the person is inexperienced with riven and thus asserts that they can't know what they are talking about.
Doesn't understand the difference between...
Again asserts that the person does not know what they are talking about.
If you had phrased it differently then it might not be construed as it is, but the way you said it serves to discredit the person. That is the definition of ad hominem.
Joxcab1 votesI am putting down their argument yes. Lack of experience isn't the sole reason. I am saying they lack experience and have also made multiple factually incorrect statements which coincides with the lack of experience.
In contrast, players who do have experience all day otherwise because they have the experience to know better and not make the aforementioned factually incorrect statements.
If one understood the differences, they wouldn't be complaining. Sure, Graves' cancel removal or Renekton's cancel can be discussed. But bringing Riven into the equation is entirely irrelevant. She has nothing to do with either.
Graves' cancel was removed because it was a bug giving additional power to an already strong champion. Riot has also acknowledged the existence of the bug personally explicitly.
Renekton's is because he could cancel his autoattacks up to three times in a row (which is even faster than Riven can cancel her AAs, she just has more canceling overall), and four times with Tiamat/Hydra. Riot deemed this was too much I'm assuming on a semi tanky champion who was already dominating earlygame.
Riven's cancels were a bug initially but were then incorporated into her kit and she was subsequently rebalanced around it because it fit the theme of her whole character better. She is in a balanced state, as evidenced by both statistics and otherwise from pro players or extremely high ELO players, and multiple other factors.
Thus, quoting Riven in the argument against removing the cancels in Graves' or Renekton's kit shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the differences.
HalcyonDweller1 votesThis was a solid analysis. I never said you were wrong to stand up against their assertions. Just that the way you did it initially was wrong.
On the other hand though; are you suggesting that if a player is inexperienced and makes a false claim, that is reason to insult them and condescend?
Joxcab1 votesNo, there is never any reason to insult or condescend. I never intend to do such, but occasionally I do and if I realize or someone catches it, I would apologize.
HalcyonDweller2 votes[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Ok, then I believe there might be an apology in order on the parent comment.
Although the OP was a dick to you, so maybe not.
EDIT: I take it back, OP does not deserve your apology in the least bit. The coward deleted his comment rather than apologize for it.
You seem like a solid person, thanks for discussing this!
EDIT 2: People editing stuff to hide from consequences is why I usually quote them when they seem like that sort of person and I'm addressing them. You might like to try the same thing to prevent that.
Jacøb Rıven1 votesWhat did he delete?
HalcyonDweller1 votesOP deleted his Rank shaming comment that was his first response to the parent comment.
Lord Kuma1 votescalling me a coward to keep things clean what a guy lol
i wont apologize to a random hard stuck low elo
and yes i wont delete this comment
HalcyonDweller1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Kuma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YKYqwA0b,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-05-02T22:08:31.270+0000)
calling me a coward to keep things clean what a guy lol
I'm not going to pretend that I don't look down on people for being toxic.
[slayer-jinx-catface]
i wont apologize to a random hard stuck low elo
and yes i wont delete this comment
Oh snap. More rank shaming.
The other guy was rude to you first, but that doesn't excuse what you did afterwards.
And trying to hide the evidence is shameful. You should take responsibility for your actions.
Jacøb Rıven1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Kuma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YKYqwA0b,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-05-02T22:08:31.270+0000)
calling me a coward to keep things clean what a guy lol
i wont apologize to a random hard stuck low elo
and yes i wont delete this comment
Not all of us have no life like you, some of us want to be in the real world and not stick infront of a computer 24/7
Lord Kuma1 votesthats a cute insult so anyone higher than ur depressing elo is a no lifeR
ok then lol
BiggerFatterBoss1 votesHe only got D3 by playing Renekton by what I can see. His elo still doesnt show whether he is a human or a chimp since he plays renekton
Rabort1 votesHasn't played a single game on Riven ( as proven by http://championmasterylookup.derpthemeus.com/summoner/?summoner=Lord%20Kuma&region=NA ), check. Doesn't understand context, check. Is calling Riven easy, check. Doesn't understand the difference between abusive versus balanced around, check. Doesn't understand the difference between additional power and core reason a champion is actually playable, check. Doesn't understand the difference in apples and oranges, check.
nerd.
MuffledGarbage3 votesRiven is balanced around the fact that she CAN animation cancel.
If you don't animation cancel as riven then you lose out on an INSANE amount of damage. whether it's E(Cancel) W or it's 3rd Q->W->
active -> R
the amount of damage you do is reduced to tickles and pancakes without animation canceling.
Jacøb Rıven3 votesEven the double cast combo, shy combo, faux triple cast combo, they're all essential to a good Riven's play and you lose out on an insane amount of damage as you said.
MuffledGarbage1 votesI don't even play riven much, yet I know the combos(can't ever do them cause they are super hard to pull off right) and I STILL know that riven is balanced. so RIP this OP
Rexxiee2 votesExcept they didnt remove his animation cancels?
Lord Kuma1 votesmaybe read the patch notes?
Rexxiee3 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Kuma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YKYqwA0b,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-05-02T22:07:20.122+0000)
maybe read the patch notes?
They fixed some bugs, none of his cancels were removed.
Maybe you should read them, and getting an AA at the same time of his Q is not a cancel, its a bug.
SexyBabyJesusZ1 votesit is hard to do especially in high risk situations
without it she would be garbage.
why is a diamond complaining about something like that?
Lord Kuma2 votesWell its going to reduce Renekton WR by a lot and he would be a lot less viable when BC also getting nerfed
the top picks in diamond+ are Jayce, Fiora, Kennen and Riven so yes i am complaining about this absurd champion that wont be ever addressed
Jacøb Rıven2 votesJayce has animation cancels, so does Fiora, and probably many more champions that you havent even listed here. Darius even has an auto cancel and i don't see you complaining about how that wasn't removed. Just because you can't play against a good Riven in your own elo doesn't mean she's broken, it means she's better than you and knows the matchup more than you.
Lord Kuma2 votesI will gladly love if riot to remove Darius aa animation cancel for riven can be finally balanced by removing her absurd mechanic
Jacøb Rıven2 votesAs you said there, mechanic. Mechanic means it's a part of the champion in this case. Please research how Riven works before bashing a champion.
Lord Kuma2 votesits still a bug so riot should act on it like how they did with the others
Jacøb Rıven2 votesIt's not a bug. Please read up. They recently added a way to doublecast with no intentions to remove it.
HalcyonDweller1 votesArguing that one champion should lose a mechanic just because another champion lost it is poor arguing.
It could preface an argument, but it shouldn't be the main point.
You could say, "Since AA animation canceling has been removed for another top laner, let's look at Riven. She abuses the mechanic to deal a significantly higher amount of damage than she could otherwise. I think removing this would give her kit more readability, counterplay, or remove some unfair power etc..."
Lord Kuma2 votesRiot are removing so many AA animation cancels and they did remove 2 of them in this patch(renekton and graves) so Riven should not be an exception since shes the most who abuses this mechanic
HalcyonDweller1 votesGood point, this is much better than what you said originally. You should add it to your post!
Joxcab2 votesDoesn't matter anyways though. Renekton and Graves' animation cancels were just additional power to already fairly strong champions. Riven's animation cancel is the entire reason she isn't complete garbage. It's the whole reason she's actually playable. Her entire kit is balanced and woven around it, unlike others.
Jacøb Rıven2 votesRiot even said, the Graves cancel was a bug that was left in for far too long, and Renekton was just due to the way that his W worked as 3 consecutive autos.
Lord Kuma2 votesif you want to keep riven bug to make her viable then she should face the consequences by nerfing her CD so hard so she can be balanced
Joxcab1 votesIt was a bug but it was incorporated into her actual theme and subsequently rebalanced Riven around it because it fit her. Please stop complaining.
Jacøb Rıven1 votesShe has long cooldowns early on, without proper runes. Her q is on around a 14 second cooldown with ~6% CDR at rank 1
Lord Kuma1 votesand the cd shouldnt start at her first q cast
Jacøb Rıven1 votesDarius' ult shouldn't deal true damage. Darius' ult shouldn't reset at rank 3. Darius' ult shouldn't have a recast window if it kills. Darius' E shouldn't give % armour pen. Darius' W shouldn't refund mana when it kills. They're part of his kit right? So is Riven's q cooldown starting at first cast. Consider all other champions too please.
Lord Kuma1 votesDarius already received nerfs thanks to you the negative WR people who refuses to learn the game and actually climb
Jacøb Rıven1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Kuma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YKYqwA0b,comment-id=000200000001000000020001000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T22:11:08.462+0000)
Darius already received nerfs thanks to you the negative WR people who refuses to learn the game and actually climb
Darius received nerfs because he was OPPRESSIVE and strong. They take into account all elos and Darius main winrates. Please stop flaming low elo players because you're just making yourself seem like a boosted ape with a good use of mouth for daddy's money.
Lord Kuma1 voteshe is a lot less oppressive and offers more counter play than riven ever will
there are 5 riven mains in challenger so her actual wr hides how oppressive and op she is
Jacøb Rıven1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Kuma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YKYqwA0b,comment-id=000200000001000000020001000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T22:11:08.462+0000)
Darius already received nerfs thanks to you the negative WR people who refuses to learn the game and actually climb
Right now, Darius has a higher winrate than Riven.
