So we are not nerfing BOTRK for ranged

Lord Kuma·May 24, 2017·40 votes·1,942 views

AD kennen is still going to be an abomination to play against, cool.

as expected from riot shoving these dumb champs top lane

47 Comments

VisionovaMay 24, 201710 votes

Kennen's always been a top laner, hasn't he?

kasfasMay 24, 201710 votes

He used to be a midlaner, and was also a top tier adc for a while.

Because of all the mobility nowadays and the amount of ways he gets comes better in lane, most people just play him top where they know they can win.

His cancer on hit build derived from his good autos track speed and animation in addition to synergy with w and stuns. He is also really slippery and sticky with the onhit build, but doesn't do as much burst damage. As such he makes laning top cancer as a melee.

His ap build isn't good anymore because it lacks effective burst to kill tanks early on anymore, so people don't play it top and due to his mid counters and the Botlane meta he is forced to go top with his onhit build.

doiminat0r3600May 24, 20172 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY9u31lYavc

YalathanilMay 25, 20171 votes

Gbay99... one of my favorite YouTubers in LOL

doiminat0r3600May 25, 20172 votes

He brings up a lot of good points in his video. Since the boards seem to be on a witch hunt for champions that are "broken" i see it's relevant

Cloud273May 24, 201710 votes

The problem with Kennen isn't only his damage, but he gets his stun way too easily. Only one of his abilities is a skillshot, and he only needs 3 stacks for a stun, so all he has to do is run at an enemy and use all of his skills to get it. They should make it so he needs more stacks to get it, the stacks don't last as long, or reduce his damage.

Ben SharpioMay 24, 20177 votes

i think you should also mention his ungankable laning phase

doiminat0r3600May 24, 20175 votes

Not ungankable though. Why do people always say that a champion is ungankable if they have one escape? Especially if that escape has a really long cooldown. If a champion's escape is also an engage, it generally has a stupid long cooldown or high cost. Cameille has a stupid long cooldown on her escape/engage. So does Veigar and Galio. Not to mention GP's oranges have a 22-14 second cooldown for a measly heal if you aren't almost dead.

Kennen's E has a 10 second cooldown most of the game and costs half of his energy pool (100 energy) (this is because no kennen in their right mind maxs this ability before Q or W). This is also his only engage tool. If you catch a kennen when his E is down, you can easily kill him. Especially if he doesn't have his ultimate (2 minute cooldown).

AnidanMay 24, 20172 votes

sh sh shhhhhhhh ungankable

But yeah, he's nowhere near ungankable. He can be safe, but he's not even the safest top laner.

doiminat0r3600May 24, 20173 votes

The benefits of kennen are that he is a champion that capitalizes on enemy laners that have only an engage as their mobility. Otherwise, he isnt nearly as strong as OP is making him out to be.

General Esdeath May 25, 20171 votes

I still question why his stun doesn't have a CD on stunned champs like Yas E and Rek'Sai knock up and Braum stun.

doiminat0r3600May 25, 20172 votes

The duration of the stun gets lower for each successful stun within 6 seconds of the last stun.

If they get stunned once, they are stunned for 1.25 seconds. If they are stunned again within 6 seconds of the first, it decreases by half a second. If you get 2 stuns off in 6 seconds, you stun them for 2 seconds total. If you do it for a third time, it's only 2.25 seconds total stun.

What does this mean? Kennen will not be able to perma stun all targets in his ult for the entire duration of the ult.

Why doesn't the passive stack building have a cooldown? Kennen's W relies on them being either in his ult radius or having atleast one mark. If there is no mark, he can't use his W on them, nor can he get the extra bonus passive damage out.

General Esdeath May 25, 20171 votes

I'd rather be stunned once since he can do it with just an enhanced auto, Q, W combo with his ENERGY bar that regens faster than mana and then not get stunned again

doiminat0r3600May 25, 20171 votes

Your point about the energy bar isn't very good. All energy champions get 10 energy per second unless they have runes.

If he can only stun you once per 6 seconds, the time on the stun would have to get buffed, otherwise, it's like a 3 hit level 1 rammus taunt except it'd be nearly useless except in certain circumstances.

General Esdeath May 25, 20171 votes

I'm fine with an increase in time, as long as it's 1 stun.

SirLapseMay 25, 20172 votes

If he's stunning you like that then that means he hasn't blown ulti, and typically means that he won't actually stun more than once. In lane phase, he will typically move away after pulling a stun + AA, unless he can just outright all-in you. Otherwise he'll miss CS and lose more than he gains. He doesn't build tank and has one of the most dangerous all-in attempts out of other champions, requiring him to be within range (which is why AP Kennen is ass right now seeing as it does no damage to reward you).

Irelia hard counters him as it is, with Olaf coming in as a close second. With Merc Treads a 1.25 second stun gets cut down to 0.875 and further stuns only do worse. The consistency of how much he can stun is crucial to how consistent he is, and 9/10 times the first stun is the one that matters. Any further stuns are just to be employed in teamfight or skirmish settings as per the champion's forte. The only interaction I feel is unbalanced at times is 1v2 at lv6 when the enemy tries to fight you at half health, but that's easily their own lack of gameplay knowledge and stuff like Irelia do not care about his stuns.

Sejuani can do the exact same thing as Kennen if she gets on you as well, but has other melee champs to support her stun activation. She can CC you into 20% max HP damage early via stun > ulti, no damage items. Kennen absolutely pales in comparison.

Side note: There is no "perma stunning" to be had unlike what Doiminator is saying because you're only one champion, and perma stun implies that you're stunned all the way to your death.

doiminat0r3600May 25, 20171 votes

Kennen also has to get in very close range for 2 of his 4 abilities. You literally have to touch enemies for his E and be within 550 units for his ult to do anything. His W has a range of 750 but requires atleast one stack of his passive.

The boards have always been confused about what is OP. People claim Ahri is OP because of her damage, but she has to hit 2 skillshots to fit her damage potential. Now people complain about kennen being OP because of his passive but only one of his abilities is actually a skillshot.

How about people learn to dodge skillshots??? That seems like a great idea.

PrinceOfStormsMay 25, 20173 votes

BoRK should just go, ADCs as a class of champion should rot with the likes of Azir and Ryze.

Chembaron YamadaMay 25, 20173 votes

Absolutely no bias against marksmen over here.

Mira Arya EntheMay 25, 20173 votes

I agree. The BotRK change was a solid idea. Just make it 6% for ranged.

Tho Kennen being a top laner has been normal for ages. And there have always been top laners with ranged basic attacks.

Shadow HazardMay 24, 20172 votes

This is the result of nerfing his ult damage.

Lord KumaMay 24, 20174 votes

no one is having fun playing vs ap or ad kenenn like ever, they nerfed his ult because he was one shotting adc's now he kills anyone who dare to stop his split push

kennen needs slight rework to be a mid laner again or he will just receive non stop nerfs

SirLapseMay 25, 20171 votes

I don't see him being top of the winrate list. He doesn't respond well to tanks that can consistently hold him down because he is squishy, and many people do not attempt to punish him while his ultimate is down.

I have seen literally the same complaints over Teemo and you don't see Riot constantly nerfing him, despite the fact that anyone who hates fighting Teemo would just love that.

EROTIC RAID BOSSMay 24, 20172 votes

the whole point of buffing BotRK in the first place was to give adcs an early game item to opt into at the expense of late game crit power spikes, or putting those off at least. it does that pretty well so it shouldn't be surprising that they don't want to make the item suck again...

of course champions like kennen are pretty annoying but they can always nerf him individually.

Lord KumaMay 24, 20172 votes

BOTRK is overtuned and needs a real nerf

and kennen is not the only one whos going on hit, teemo also goes on hit and its as aids to deal with and removes immobile champs from the game with the FM combo

or maybe its just me

SeenanMay 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Kuma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E5sqLINV,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-05-24T22:32:10.840+0000)

BOTRK is overtuned and needs a real nerf

and kennen is not the only one whos going on hit, teemo also goes on hit and its as aids to deal with and removes immobile champs from the game with the FM combo

or maybe its just me

Nah, I've noticed Teemos opting into onhit build moreso than any when I face them.

EROTIC RAID BOSSMay 25, 20172 votes

I think its a bit overtuned, but its also really good for adcs.

the item should be balanced around the adc role, and then abusers should be nerfed. of course its hard to make a version of kennen or teemo top lane that ever feels like a fun time to play against. I do play illaoi top a lot so I get the aggravation

Noxian PrideMay 25, 20171 votes

To be fair, Teemo only goes on-hit because all the vision options these days that screw his shrooms have essentially killed the AP build.

Chembaron YamadaMay 25, 20172 votes

BotrK is overtuned and needs nerfs, ok. Why should that nerf be a melee/ranged split?

They are nerfing the item directly for everyone by reducing its lifesteal. They don't have to make it unfair for all ranged characters if the item is intended to be bought by marksmen. They can nerf it for everyone and then nerf individuals who are too strong with it.

Sire HippingtonMay 24, 20172 votes

Even with BotrK nerfed, Kennen will still be an abomination to face as any melee in Lane, that's the nature of melee vs ranged in this game, especially if the ranged has good selfpeel. He'll just fall back to either double dorans into ap or mabye some ap-onhit with guinsoo's, permastunning folks 1v1.

Lord KumaMay 24, 20171 votes

well atleast he needs to AA 6 times to get the full power of guinsoo

all they need to do is either nerf BOTRK for range or rework/remove FM from the game

Sp33d Zer0May 25, 20172 votes

"Riot, stop shoving these champs top lane!" "Riot, stop shoving these champs in the jungle!" "Riot, stop shoving these champs in the bot lane!" Jesus man, is the only place champs are allowed to go mid?

3TWarriorMay 25, 20172 votes

well, marksmen actually used to take mid and didn't need a "support"

now we've got this only bottom lane thing going on that wrecked a perfectly fine 2-1-2 lane game that despised the jungler XD

Asayake 5150glowMay 25, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E5sqLINV,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-05-25T00:45:40.168+0000)

"Riot, stop shoving these champs top lane!"

This is for ADC's, they can jungle/support/mid, but we don't like them top.

"Riot, stop shoving these champs in the jungle!"

This is for tanks who got kicked out of toplane because of Darius.

"Riot, stop shoving these champs in the bot lane!"

This is for mages who now work better as supports, so people don't like how they bring so much damage that wasn't there previously, and how they don't have as much utility

Jesus man, is the only place champs are allowed to go mid?

Each of these is for a different type of champion...

Sp33d Zer0May 25, 20171 votes

Kennen Lissandra Fizz Ryze Graves Twitch KogMaw Maokai Mordekaiser Ziggs

NuparuMay 25, 20172 votes

AD Kennen is an abomination and should never be allowed to be good. He's just as aids as Quinn when he's viable except with a lot more CC to trade for a global ultimate. That shit needs to cease to exist. Lissandra is eh. She fits fine top lane. (who complains about Lissandra, anyways?) Bruiser Fizz is also an abomination and thankfully is never allowed to be good for longer than 2-3 patches. Ryze is just never allowed to do anything after constant nerfs and reworks. Unlucky.

Graves is aids. The end. Twitch? Jungle Twitch has always been cheese and never really been tier 1, it'll still exist now and it'll exist later. Jungle Kog relied on abuse of on-hit items and his ridiculous fucking w active that was removed because it warped items so badly. And then jungle Kog died. The end.

Maokai support/Mordekaiser ADC/Ziggs bot are viable and kinda okay (except Ninja Tabis make Morde a bit too fucking durable) in their respective roles. I don't hear complaining about any of them, except maybe Ziggs but that seems to have died down.

Sp33d Zer0May 25, 20173 votes

I see EVERY high mobility low bulk melee still complain about lissandra top. Riven Yasuo Pantheon Irelia Jax just a few examples.

I remember the threads in season 5 being a muck with "Riot, how can you allow people to play graves jungle?! He is supposed to be an adc!" Fizz has existed in the jungle as well and been called an abomination, even when building AP. People STILL have a history about Ryze top and complaining about it. He may not be in a good place right now, but that doesn't remove the history people have with him. You don't hear complaining now, but trust me, it was rampant, and maokai's outcry is still pretty loud.

My point was not that these champs are all still top tier in this exact meta, it was that ANY TIME a champion deviates from the standard and it is effective, people lose their heads over it, to the extent that if you don't play every champ in one specific way it "needs to go back to it's lane".

LordGeovanniMay 25, 20172 votes

After they buffed it for ranged with more ad and nerfed the last good attack speed option for fighters who arent looking to waste stats item 3124 item 3078 . Aatrox Jax JarvanIV Olaf Shyvana etc isnt stats waste for some of them but rather the only strong stat on current version is attack speed the rest are small amounts of general stats and passives.

Chembaron YamadaMay 25, 20172 votes

I am glad that BotrK doesn't get split between melee and ranged. If there are cases when it is op (like Kennen or Lucian), then they can just nerf these champions in particular.

But I don't want them to make an item, which they recently changed to be an attractive purchase for marksmen, less effective on marksmen. That would just contradict the intent.

Lord KumaMay 25, 20171 votes

I mean adc having a one item power spike is never a good idea, if you want adc's to be late game gods then why do you want them to be a huge threat early game? honestly the game is decided on who has the fed lucian or draven or any BOTRK user

while other range tops abusing on-hit build

SirLapseMay 25, 20171 votes

"This game is decided on who has the fed ADC."

Welcome to League of Marksman, we've been in it for over 3 seasons. A fed ADC used to mean nothing and they're the most item dependent class in the game. It's about time they had an item that MATTERS if you get it sooner. Being fed implies you have a level advantage, CS advantage and/or item advantage, not just an item advantage.

"Using well" is also not abusing, I think you're biased because on-hit build characters smash your main Darius.

Samflash3May 25, 20172 votes

Why is AD Kennen doable and not AD Twisted Fate?

ThefrostyvikingMay 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Why is AD Kennen doable and not AD Twisted Fate?

More damage, mobility and more stuns.

It's mainly the mobility, kennen with his speedup is hella frustrating to gank or catch whilst TF is a slowpoke that you just need to walk up to.

SirLapseMay 25, 20171 votes

AD TF is still doable, it's just not consistent in terms of top lane. I remember seeing it bottom lane before and it was really stupid to play against since he has his stun at lv1. Get a support that does good follow up or damage like Sion and it's really stupid.

Claire LovelyMay 25, 20171 votes

I think what they should do is take off his AD empowered auto and maybe the attack speed to, while giving AP buffs, then he can be played like a burst mage again.

ThefrostyvikingMay 25, 20171 votes

Nerfing an item just because 1-3 champions are strong with it and 10 others average is rarely a good idea.

Some really need it just to be viable, that is why it was buffed in the first place.