So, why are targeted abilities the strongest, by far?

Niyumi··2 votes·296 views

First, here's a little quote in a thread about Vlad (an AP clicker), written by Meddler:

{quoted}

Our main problem with Vlad is his Q. It's a low CD, targeted, resourceless spell that restores health. It doesn't have much interesting decision making for Vlad, if it's ever strong early he just shuts a lot of people out of lane and the main ways to deal with it are to either sustain even more or to punish Vlad really hard when he trades.

Vlad's also got a bit of a 'stat check' issue, where he'll just reliably outclick a lot of opponents 1v1 without sufficient avenues for being outplayed. That's not ideal, it's a lesser issue though since it doesn't kick in until later in the game when 1 v 1 counterplay is less important than team v team counterplay.

So, that's straight from Meddler in another thread talking about why they don't like Vlad. Since the first half is only concerning Vlad, let's read the second half, shall we? Specifically this little part:

"... he'll just reliably outclick a lot of opponents... without sufficient avenues for being outplayed..."

Now, I have a question regarding that sentence there: Why then, if you don't like Vlad clicking people to death, are champs like Yi, Swain, Annie, Anivia, Malzahar, Win Zhao, Riven, Trundle, ADCs in general and all these other champs who rely on targeted abilities (which have no counterplay other than go nowhere near them, or kill them first (AKA, a stat check)), allowed to exist? They go directly against what you just said there, yet it's not an issue if Anivia can click on people with her E and instantly kill them? Or the fact that the highest source of damage in the game is the most reliable, safe, costless, and effortless method available (AA spam) isn't an issue?

You can't have double standards, Riot. Either apply that same ideology to all champs, or apply it to none. But, you know, gotta figure out how to best milk the whales, right? Sure do have to love F2P companies.

11 Comments

The Sword Saint2 votes
  • More so than being a targeted ability, the unhealthy part of vlad's q is that it is a low cooldown manaless hp draining ability. The fact that it heals vlad significantly, when paired with its range, cooldown, and reliability, means that if vlad faces 1000 champions back to back in 1v1s without basing, as long as his healing is enough to survive the burst of any one of them one on one then he will never die. There is no possible way to outplay him if you are even slightly behind in gold or levels. You either have the raw power to beat vlad before he heals up or you don't and lose.

  • Swain relies on a delayed aoe skillshot snare to keep people from just walking away from him and waiting for him to turn his ult off or go oom and riot has talked about wanting to rework him in the future, annie's w and ult are not targeted spells so she can miss them or you can use mobility or flash when she flashes to dodge her damage, literally everything in riven's kit aside from auto attacks can be dodged or avoided or kited out, etc.

  • Riot doesn't have infinite time and resources, they can only fix one champion or one small set of champions at a time. Hence the juggernauts, recent adc pass, and upcoming immobile mage pass. Just because something currently exists doesn't mean that it's not on riots backlog of things to get around to at some point just like they got to Sion, Gangplank, Poppy, Fiora, etc.

  • Design philosophies evolve over time as people learn and gather data. What seemed like a good idea 2-3 years ago isn't good enough nowadays in many cases, that's why we have patches and an evolving game.

  • Your tinfoil hat about game companies is showing.

Niyumi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Dancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YHn0UT5K,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-01-25T04:30:00.222+0000)

  • More so than being a targeted ability, the unhealthy part of vlad's q is that it is a low cooldown manaless hp draining ability. The fact that it heals vlad significantly, when paired with its range, cooldown, and reliability, means that if vlad faces 1000 champions back to back in 1v1s without basing, as long as his healing is enough to survive the burst of any one of them one on one then he will never die. There is no possible way to outplay him if you are even slightly behind in gold or levels. You either have the raw power to beat vlad before he heals up or you don't and lose.

Build any amount of lifesteal on an ADC, boom. Identical with a shorter CD. Slightly less healing, but just build a bork and BT and you'll heal even more than Vlad.

  • Swain relies on a delayed aoe skillshot snare to keep people from just walking away from him and waiting for him to turn his ult off or go oom and riot has talked about wanting to rework him in the future, annie's w and ult are not targeted spells so she can miss them or you can use mobility or flash when she flashes to dodge her damage, literally everything in riven's kit aside from auto attacks can be dodged or avoided or kited out, etc.

Swain's Q and E are not a skillshot, and his R is auto-targeted. His snare is irrelevant after he gets a couple items. He can just click on people and walk around as they die.

Annie's W and R are "skillshots," sure, but they're also instantaneous and can't be blocked in any way. You can't dodge them unless she just misses with her mouse. So her counterplay is hoping she's bad.

And, most of Riven's damage comes from her empowered AA spam with that fucking bug that Riot refuses to fix. Take away her AA spam, she does very little damage outside of her ult's execute effect.

  • Riot doesn't have infinite time and resources, they can only fix one champion or one small set of champions at a time. Hence the juggernauts, recent adc pass, and upcoming immobile mage pass. Just because something currently exists doesn't mean that it's not on riots backlog of things to get around to at some point just like they got to Sion, Gangplank, Poppy, Fiora, etc.

They made over a billion dollars in profit last year. That means they covered their costs, and then made a billion more. Yet, the pace and quality that they work at makes a construction worker look diligent. Thing is, that's how an F2P company works; you put actual content and meaningful work on the back burner, and focus on what makes your money (in this case, skins and hype for champions / reworks). And, here's the other thing: If balance was actually a part of this game, and every champion was viable, then Riot would lose money. They have to make waves of popular champions or risk not making $1B+ a year. Add onto that the fact that today's society teaches you that effort and thought are evil -- if Riot made it so that you can't just right-click on people and win, then very few people would throw money at Riot for skins, since they don't feel like they're good at the game and don't have fun.

So, they have the resources and means to actually balance their game with some form of logic, but, they just don't care enough to do so. Say thanks to the latest generation and the F2P scams they created.

  • Design philosophies evolve over time as people learn and gather data. What seemed like a good idea 2-3 years ago isn't good enough nowadays in many cases, that's why we have patches and an evolving game.

Yeah, sure, but when you have a champion around since launch that Riot refuses to even talk about anymore (Yorick)... that shows that they're just not really doing much of anything but spinning their wheels and telling lies.

  • Your tinfoil hat about game companies is showing.

It's not a tinfoil hat. I watched gaming come to life, I saw it become great, and then I saw it get stabbed in the back and killed off by entitled brats and money-grubbing assholes. Watching the slow death of your childhood hobby that you always dreamed of as having as a career (not playing, development) ever since you were little is more than just painful.

The Sword Saint1 votes

Maybe it's just because I'm on the other side and am already living my dream as a game developer both professionally as part of a company and pursuing my own independent works that I just see things from a different perspective. If you really love games and mean it about wanting to work int he industry, then don't let frustrations with some specific game or part of the industry stop you. Think about what you want to do differently and then do it, or maybe look into finding a spark with some other type of game than mobas.

Maybe you just need to look at something different for a while to take the edge off.

Niyumi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Dancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YHn0UT5K,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-01-25T05:56:33.694+0000)

Maybe it's just because I'm on the other side and am already living my dream as a game developer both professionally as part of a company and pursuing my own independent works that I just see things from a different perspective.

Congrats. ^^

If you really love games and mean it about wanting to work int he industry, then don't let frustrations with some specific game or part of > the industry stop you. Think about what you want to do differently and then do it, or maybe look into finding a spark with some other type of game than mobas.

Ever since I was little, video games were a window to another world, where I could live a life that I couldn't in the real world, and be someone I wasn't. They were like reading a book, but instead of watching the characters, you were the character(s). I could write essay after essay about them... but I love them more than you can imagine. (And I feel silly for saying that, but oh well) Thing is though, if I went and started my own game, it'd be a colossal failure. No one wants to play a game that doesn't hand you everything on a silver platter, no one cares about the story behind it all, no one wants to be met with challenges that have to be climbed over, no one wants to be made to think... none of that. Everyone just wants instant gratification. And, no one would play a non-F2P game anyway. So I can't help but wonder, "Why bother?"

And, honestly, I don't even enjoy MOBAs all that much. I just don't have anything else to do, and no other games I enjoy anymore to play. Gaming, for me, died 8-10 years ago. And while I'd love to think I could bring it back to life... who am I kidding?

Maybe you just need to look at something different for a while to take the edge off.

I have nothing else to do. So, it's this or sleep all day.

weeaboomer1 votes

Jax item 3124

Niyumi1 votes

He falls into that same category.

Onegarion1 votes

The problem you miss is that many of the examples you give Have mana, doesn't give health back, and have much higher CD. Yi has to AA you in the middle to lower his CD and its on a decent CD especially in comparison to Vlad Q. Swain, anivia, annie, malzahar all have Mana costs that alter the scenario. Riven, xin, and Trundle are all melee so they can be kited and again except for Xin they don't heal off the abilities. ADCs aren't abilities, but AA which is a different category otherwise we might as well take all AA away from every champ because its manaless, on a low CD, and can give health back with lifesteal.

You are on a very slippery slope with this that just doesn't hold up in a real discussion.

Niyumi1 votes

I'm talking about AA, not their abilities. Abilities only apply to champs like Annie, Anivia, Malz and so on.

No, you can keep AA spam and ADCs, but there is ZERO reason it needs to be the strongest form of damage in the game.

Onegarion1 votes

The only solution to AA is to completely remove it from everyone. its the 1 thing that EVERY champ can do with no exception. They all AA be it melee or ranged. Its why its never an argument because there is not 1 champ left out of an AA.

Wheres this number about AA being the strongest form of damage in the game? What site are you pulling this from?

Illiad1 votes

Targeted abilities in their design are simply easier to hit over skillshots and aoe spells, Since they are easier to hit, they are inherently going to be stronger in a situation where the skillshot may miss [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Niyumi1 votes

Sure, but I'm talking mathematically. Skillshot champions are by and large the weakest champs in the game.

Skillshot champ vs. targeted champ, same level, equal builds... the skillshot loses, even if neither of them even move.

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