Nerf triple dorans ring, mana costs exist for a reason

Danny DeVito·Jun 2, 2017·14 votes·2,501 views

This shit is so stupid, for 1200g you can just mash your spells all day in lane nonstop, and its being done on just about every popular lane bully

47 Comments

ƒrostγJun 2, 201712 votes

As a tradeoff it delays their build, so its completely fine. By the time they finish an item, you should have ~1.5.

ShirvallahJun 3, 20176 votes

They're making the passive unique so people can't stack them anymore. I'll edit this as soon as I find where I saw it.

EDIT: Here you go:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Z_-UrsAqY3U/WTDJzVtSQsI/AAAAAAAAmWA/25TycGAY8b4MNpAYoAb6XI2GxqXByP2pwCLcB/s400/doransring.png

Reference: [ x ]

NineTailedMysticJun 3, 20179 votes

rip mid laners. Thanks, top laners.

ShirvallahJun 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

rip mid laners. Thanks, top laners.

I like doubling up on Doran's Rings in most cases with my AP midlaners, so this is going to be a real adjustment for me too. :(

Sometimes I have to rush Zhonya's or Banshee's, so the double Doran's helps with the mana problem. Now I'll just have to rush the Lost Chapter or Sheen instead and then the defensive item. They don't give the mana regen that we really need, though, but I guess it's better than no mana item.

NineTailedMysticJun 3, 20172 votes

Fuck it, just go double Dark Seal. 200 flat Mana, 30 AP, and +50% potion healing with the bonus of the snowball passive. They sell for more than Doran's and cost less too.

ShirvallahJun 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Fuck it, just go double Dark Seal. 200 flat Mana, 30 AP, and +50% potion healing with the bonus of the snowball passive. They sell for more than Doran's and cost less too.

I'll look into trying this. Might look into trying a Corrupting Potion start, too. If you test either, will you let me know how it goes for you?

NineTailedMysticJun 3, 20171 votes

If I remember. 1 Doran's 1 Dark seal might be good like someone just suggested to me, but I feel like it might be better to go ham on one or the other.

RocketRelmJun 3, 20171 votes

Maybe 1 Dark Seal 1 Doran's Ring?

JulanusJun 3, 20171 votes

I was about to correct you on the Potion healing being Unique, but I went and checked it just in case.

And.. Not only was I mistaken, I think I might consider stacking Dark Seals.

It'd probably be more ideal on the off-chance I get Mid or even Top, but if nothing else, spending less on potions on a Support budget seems pretty nice, especially during long stretches between recalls.

HateDaddyJun 3, 20174 votes

{quoted}

rip mid laners. Thanks, top laners.

Don't.

You'll get me started.

On all the shit.

Mid laners.

Have ruined.

For Top.

Laners

Big LincolnJun 3, 20172 votes

nah bruh mages are the real victims

HateDaddyJun 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YGbRrAl9,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-03T03:40:40.355+0000)

nah bruh mages are the real victims

item 1054 item 3146 (SOON) item 3027 item 3116 OLD ABYSSAL SCEPTER summoner 12

All of this shit. Got nerfed. Because of fucking mid laners abusing them. AP bruisers depended upon this shit. Top laners NEEDED (and still need) teleport.

Then there's those fucking ad carries...

NineTailedMysticJun 3, 20175 votes

Gunblade is a Top item? Akali Katarina

RoA is a Top item? TwistedFate AurelionSol

Rylai's is a Top item? Taliyah Zyra Malzahar

I'll say that some Top laners relied on them like Morde, but TP is the only thing that was abused.

LankPantsJun 3, 20171 votes

Why are you arguing Akali as a mid laner? She sees fractionally more play with far more success top.

NineTailedMysticJun 3, 20173 votes

She's traditionally been a mid laner.

LankPantsJun 3, 20171 votes

No, she's really not. Akali has been played 50-70% in the top lane for a very long time. Top Akali has pretty much always been more popular and better performing than mid Akali.

NineTailedMysticJun 3, 20173 votes

Very long time? I'd say since the whole Sunfire/Iceborn fiasco she started going Top frequently, which is still far less time than she's been released and gone mid.

paisyJun 3, 20171 votes

Just because she's played top doesn't mean she can't mid

MiraweaveJun 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

(SOON) OLD ABYSSAL SCEPTER

All of this shit. Got nerfed. Because of fucking mid laners abusing them. AP bruisers depended upon this shit. Top laners NEEDED (and still need) teleport.

Then there's those fucking ad carries...

Gunblade, ROA, and Rylais are intended for midlaners. Teleport got nerfed because of top laners just as much as because of midlaners.

NineTailedMysticJun 3, 20171 votes

Eye for an eye isn't the way to go.

lilycuJun 3, 20172 votes

Rip my 6 rings nasus build Q.Q

DarkRitualJun 2, 20172 votes

I think it would be a good idea to make all the Doran's Items unique, so you can only build one. Coded similar to Boots of Speed and the Support Gold Income items. Dark Seal should be unique to itself, but buildable with a Doran's Item. Cull should be fine as is.

SohleksJun 3, 20172 votes

Hey I agree that stacking Dorans Rings is too strong, but I don't think they should be taken away. Stacking Dorans has always been a thing. Removing that just forces everyone on the same path. The current nerf lined up should be ok. IMO Dorans shield should be viable as a stack too like the others, but I think it kind of IS there despite the unique (for perhaps a manaless tank top); but it's getting nerfed though

But I agree that Dark Seal is off too

EQ FidgetspinnerJun 3, 20172 votes

The passive needs to be unique.

ShadòwJun 3, 20172 votes

read pbe

Meep ManJun 3, 20171 votes

Im surprised how long it took people to realize that Doran's Ring was one of the cheapest and most effective forms of Mana Regen available to Mages and it can be stacked.

NineTailedMysticJun 3, 20175 votes

And a necessity when it comes to Mana sustain when they can't rush their Mana item.

LankPantsJun 3, 20172 votes

item 3802

900 gold, you really can't rush that, seriously? Most mages can sustain themselves easily with a lost chapter, the majority who can't tend towards tear anyway, which is 750 gold and certainly rushable. The only mid laner who I think really can't cope with this change is Diana and it's about damn time Riot reduced her mana costs a bit anyway.

NineTailedMysticJun 3, 20171 votes

Delaying Seeker's or the MR item of choice by 900g which in turn also delays stacking Seeker's? By going Lost chapter first, you are very susceptible to your laner's Level 6 power spike if they're an Assassin like Zed or Talon, or a heavy Burst Mage like Syndra.

LankPantsJun 3, 20172 votes

And if you want infinite mana that should be a tradeoff. Currently D-Ring trivialises that tradeoff. You can still go Seekers, but you have to manage your mana more carefully if you do. That's the way it should be.

NineTailedMysticJun 3, 20172 votes

And if you want infinite mana that should be a tradeoff.

It's not infinite Mana, at least at two D-Rings. And is the trade off "buy Mana sustain and feed, or buy defensively and be out of Mana all the time"? I wanted less Mana sustain, not no Mana sustain.

Currently D-Ring trivialises that tradeoff.

No it doesn't. Two D-Rings keeps them afloat, three is when you start to profit Mana if you CS well with your spells. Not to mention how you're buying slot inefficient items that sell for less than half their price.

but you have to manage your mana more carefully if you do

There is no managing Mana when you're constantly shoved in by champions that have no long term resource like Zed or Yasuo. It's either use your spells to keep up in CS, or be constantly shoved under tower struggling to last hit.

Not to mention this will kill what little build diversity there is because it will actively prohibit going anything but your Mana item first in any circumstance.

Tell me, why any AP would go Doran's over Dark Seal or Corrupting now?

DrCyanideJun 3, 20171 votes

Tell me, why any AP would go Doran's over Dark Seal or Corrupting now?

Any player who could manage on 1 Doran's Ring is literally unaffected. Champions with built in mana sustain (Xerath, Twisted Fate, Annie, Karthus, probably more) wouldn't benefit as much from swapping to Corrupting Potion.

TonsOfGainsJun 3, 20171 votes

Dorans stacking has been around since the start of League of Legends, 8 years ago. Here's the math behind why it might not be as effective as you think:

Cost of Doran's Ring: 400 Value of 1% point of mana regen: 5 Relative Refund Value: -240 Bounty (Kill) Value: 300 (Taken from LoL Wiki)

First off, note that each purchase of Doran's Ring has an explicit value of -240 gold due to not being built into anything and not being retained in a complete build. Assuming that the stacking of 3 rings (or the purchase of 2 additional rings) is what we are concerned with, a player takes on the explicit cost of 480 gold to begin with. This means that the stacking of those 3 rings must translate into at least 2 kills or a 28 CS lead in order to profit and 1.6 kills or 24 CS in order to break even. Furthermore, this analysis disregards whatever skill or other extenuating factors might be at play - meaning the required profit margin might be higher in reality.

Secondly, Doran's Ring has an intrinsic value of 250 gold. This is derived from the 50% mana regen since that is the topic of debate. This makes Doran's Ring relatively gold inefficient with regards to pursuing mana regen, with a 62.5% efficiency - derived from mana regen value relative to explicit cost. The stacking of Doran's Ring (or the purchase of 2 additional rings) therefore has the intrinsic value of 500 gold. This means that over the average of many games, we expect that the stacking of Doran's Ring will grant 1.67 kills - which is actually only slightly above the break even value of 1.6 kills or 24 CS.

RocketRelmJun 3, 20171 votes

The thing you're not counting when you regard "it must make you X amount of gp" is that Gold Now >>> Gold Later. If I sell a Doran's 30 minutes into the game to make room for an item slot, sure then I'm losing 240 gold, but at that point that's under 2% of my total gold.

More importantly, you do not only need to qualify the gain you make, but the penalty inflicted on your opponent. If you are strong enough to shunt them out of 5 CS over the laning phase because of a dorans (perhaps because you got that kill, perhaps just zoning), that too contributes towards breaking even.

While I do think that 3 is too much, because you need those item slots too quickly, and it delays your Power Spikes, 2 is entirely reasonable and effective.

TonsOfGainsJun 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The thing you're not counting when you regard "it must make you X amount of gp" is that Gold Now >>> Gold Later. If I sell a Doran's 30 minutes into the game to make room for an item slot, sure then I'm losing 240 gold, but at that point that's under 2% of my total gold.

More importantly, you do not only need to qualify the gain you make, but the penalty inflicted on your opponent. If you are strong enough to shunt them out of 5 CS over the laning phase because of a dorans (perhaps because you got that kill, perhaps just zoning), that too contributes towards breaking even.

While I do think that 3 is too much, because you need those item slots too quickly, and it delays your Power Spikes, 2 is entirely reasonable and effective.

Your point is in dispute of the explicit (-240) value while trying to compare it with an intrinsic value (benefit of shunting them out of CS or zoning). You will see in my explanation that I separate explicit and intrinsic values into two different points. And while I demonstrate that explicit value is sub-par, I also demonstrate that intrinsic value is slightly above par.

Finally, you follow up with the opinion that 2 is reasonable and effective while 3 is questionable - meaning that your opinion likely falls in line with my calculations.

Thanks though.

SolidariusJun 3, 20172 votes

you can do all the math and paper in the world but it wont come close to what they do in the actual game, play it sometimes or try the 3 rush and you will see for yourself.

its all a matter of personal preference though me personally I like to rush my items first... but it is a FACT that some champs NEED these items to survive in the lane phase of the game otherwise they would run oom and be destroyed/ made invalid for example top lane Galio.

I wish riot would just bring back mana pots but that will sadly never happen ):

TonsOfGainsJun 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

you can do all the math and paper in the world but it wont come close to what they do in the actual game, play it sometimes or try the 3 rush and you will see for yourself.

its all a matter of personal preference though me personally I like to rush my items first... but it is a FACT that some champs NEED these items to survive in the lane phase of the game otherwise they would run oom and be destroyed/ made invalid for example top lane Galio.

I wish riot would just bring back mana pots but that will sadly never happen ):

This comment explains why posts like these occur. People have a tendency to believe that their personal experiences outweigh aggregate statistics. In this case, believing that a few people performing extraordinarily outweighs the fact that there is only a 4.3% intrinsic advantage in purchasing triple Doran's Rings.

My comment was never in dispute of the 4.3% intrinsic advantage which I personally derived (1.67 intrinsic value over 1.6 explicit break even). It was just stating that the post and many comments appeared to over-exaggerate a measurable, albeit small, advantage. Optimally, I agree that this intrinsic advantage should be 0%. Riot has apparently already taken steps to ensure that in the next patch.

SolidariusJun 3, 20171 votes

you use a lot of big words I am only a simply bronze V , and yes my personal experiences do outweigh aggregate statistics.

LankPantsJun 3, 20171 votes

3 Doran's rings is the break even point for Galio to kill the caster with just 1 max rank Q until around 25 minutes. That's why people specifically run 3 and not 2, 2 is probably good enough for mana sustain, the third does help however and it greatly increases your shoving ability.

TonsOfGainsJun 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

3 Doran's rings is the break even point for Galio to kill the caster with just 1 max rank Q until around 25 minutes. That's why people specifically run 3 and not 2, 2 is probably good enough for mana sustain, the third does help however and it greatly increases your shoving ability.

Once again, you're citing a scenario which involves one champion in particular. This has more to do with the champion and less to do with this item's effect on the game as a whole.

LankPantsJun 3, 20172 votes

Yes, this has a lot to do with Galio. He's the main champ stacking 3 rings specifically. Many mages build 2 rings, 3 is rare. I think the other champs who run triple ring are Lane Gragas, I'm not entirely sure on the reason for that but I know he does and Lane Diana who just has abysmal mana costs and literally cannot sustain herself with two rings.

TonsOfGainsJun 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yes, this has a lot to do with Galio. He's the main champ stacking 3 rings specifically. Many mages build 2 rings, 3 is rare. I think the other champs who run triple ring are Lane Gragas, I'm not entirely sure on the reason for that but I know he does and Lane Diana who just has abysmal mana costs and literally cannot sustain herself with two rings.

Upvoted.

deadlychuckJun 3, 20171 votes

Tell that to all of the AD caster style champions who have no resource or don't even care that they do.

ZT XperimentorJun 3, 20171 votes

What mana costs? Katarina Kled LeeSin Riven Yasuo

Irelia BotJun 3, 20171 votes

If I can't buy 3 Doran shields to counteract a Panth due to it having a unique passive. Gragus and GP should not be able to stack 3 rings and never have mana issues while still having fairly good sustain.

The 50% mana regen or the 4 mana on minion kills should be unique on Doran's Ri... wait they are actually making the 4 mana on minion kill passive unique!!!

Also Doran's shield is getting nerfed last I heard. cost is going up to 450 again.