Sure the current buffs are nice, and take time to think of. Hell, I think he'll be better too.
But please, for the love of all that is holy, do not think that he'll be 100% after those buffs. He'll still need something more. I saw meddler say something about shortening the W's impact delay, but no changes were made to it...
So please, take it into consideration.
SEKAI15 votesHe is a "low tier" champion who is intentionally balanced to have low presence and overall power so he will have less chance to appear on pro scene stage.
Simple as that.
Since he doesn't offer twitch based reflex action, Riot figured he has to be weak as strategy is *clearly *not the strong suit or the direction of LoL.
This type of tier based balance of "this champ belongs to tier 3, oh XXX should always be tier 1" is a horrible, horrible balance in every game except MMORPG where they can still *sorta *get away with by having them as gears, however it's a shiet old model which is gonna get replaced sooner or later, give it enough time. But LoL is NOT a MMORPG, so idk what they are doing here at all, I don't understand.
Curling Veigar6 votesHe is a "low tier" champion who is intentionally balanced to have low presence and overall power so he will have less chance to appear on pro scene stage.
Simple as that.
Since he doesn't offer twitch based reflex action, Riot figured he has to be weak since strategy is *clearly *not the strong suite or the direction of LoL.
This type of tier based balance of "this champ belongs to tier 3, oh XXX should always be tier 1" is a horrible, horrible balance in every game except MMORPG that can get away with by having them as gears, and it's a shiet old model too which is gonna get replaced sooner or later, give it enough time. But LoL is NOT an MMORPG, so idk what they are doing here at all.
Definitely low tier. He's not viable in any rank above bronze, and I'm not even exaggerating.
Hopefully the buffs change it a bit.
Ser Safir2 votes[{quoted}](name=Curling Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y9TQhE4r,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-07T10:31:12.704+0000)
Definitely low tier. He's not viable in any rank above bronze, and I'm not even exaggerating.
Hopefully the buffs change it a bit.
Veigar's "buff" makes the speed on q faster which will let him get a couple cs more than he did before.
His other buff gives players the same level of warning they had before.
His winrate will remain at 39% until riot has the decency to admit they made a bad call.
cars1 votesHe is a "low tier" champion who is intentionally balanced to have low presence and overall power so he will have less chance to appear on pro scene stage.
Simple as that.
Since he doesn't offer twitch based reflex action, Riot figured he has to be weak since strategy is *clearly *not the strong suit or the direction of LoL.
This type of tier based balance of "this champ belongs to tier 3, oh XXX should always be tier 1" is a horrible, horrible balance in every game except MMORPG where they can still *sorta *get away with by having them as gears, however it's a shiet old model which is gonna get replaced sooner or later, give it enough time. But LoL is NOT a MMORPG, so idk what they are doing here at all, I don't understand.
tbh, Veigar is still viable, you just have to use your E well.
SEKAI10 votesViable? Yes. Competitive? Not exactly.
This sounds very tier based balance to me, and imo it's very bad.
Rinky Dinky5 votesI would say he isnt even viable.
These buffs will make him viable again MAYBE.
His w still needs a buff.
Who knows, maybe the buffed e will be useful
He's pretty good in aram tho 8)
Junkο27 votes"You have to use your E well"
By that you mean enemy team has to be a retard so they walk into your walls?
qetzel2 votesThis is an awfl argument. Think of all the "twitch based reflex action" champions Riot has nerfed.
Thryale1 voteslet me see... how many twitch based reaction champs have been nerfed this badly?
...hmmmmm..... nope, nothing comes to mind.
Decaedeus2 votes
Curling Veigar1 votesHe got buffed too but I think he's still gunna be weak
Decaedeus1 votesStill a twitch-based reaction champion who got nerfed.
Thryale1 votesnot really. he is hyper mobile, but his kit is not very "twitchy" as far as reacting and making plays goes. He's still rather grounded in the old designs of a league that once was. (which may be why riot keeps nerfing him because he combines the stability of old league design with the hyper mobility of new league)
qetzel1 votes
N30NP4NDA1 votesZed had a attack speed nerf and he wasnt even that good.
qetzel1 votesAbout a year ago he got hurt quite badly.
Thryale1 voteshis burst got hurt, but in compensation he got his insane safety that is far worse than his burst.
chumbler1 voteshis burst got hurt, but in compensation he got his insane safety that is far worse than his burst.
He was safer before.
Im not saying veigar is fine right now but this may just be an experiment. I mean what role is he supposed to fill? We already have annie if we want aoe stun with burst. plenty of other champs already do his damage. You cant just have champ thats "infinitely ap scaling" and then have that be his only thing. He has to have something else playstyle-wise that will make him unique.
Having him have a powerful zone is a start. His e is more powerful now than it was before with a team and much weaker without one as it now has longer range and can be shot out from a relatively safe area and with the walls blocking dashes AND mitigating damage from dashes that dont complete makes it very powerful in shaping team battles.
The rest of his kit just needs to now be buffed to fit this role as a zone controlling heavy damage mage.
Saying his E is more powerful now in any way is flat out false. The skill is weaker, period. It is not better zone control than before, and stopping dashes won't matter when they can dash out or just walk out before it even activates. Moreover stopping dashes is something it should have always done. Veigar has gained nothing from this rework, and it's terribly designed on top of that, because the only purpose of this "rework" was destroying the champion.
BuCkeT SeiZureS1 votesI agree with you quite a bit. I strongly believe that this buff will do little. The enemy still has their .75second timer to walk out of it or use their dash. With his old E, it should not have stopped dashes. I was OP as it was. But it needed either a slight Nerf and buff (stops dashes. Stun duration down to 1.5 seconds or something like that.) or a complete overhaul. Not this band aid fix . This new E is not stronger than his old one. Now veigar does not have the kit of a zone mage. His W is practically useless. He has always been about burst and it only worked because of his stun. Right now he has the most broken up kit possible. His passive is good for the spammer mage. His q is for the poke mage (burst mage as well with the farm aspect), the W is for the wave clear control mage. The E is for the zone control mage, and his R is for the burst mage. With out RELIABLE CC, he will never return to his roots. He could be reworked, but Riot has even agreed that Veigar should be a burst mage.
PKnowledge1 votesSince he doesn't offer twitch based reflex action, Riot figured he has to be weak as strategy is clearly not the strong suit or the direction of LoL.
At last, someone get it ! I've been saying that again and again on the french board, but they keep saying "Veigar was toxic, items are not made to counter, you should be able to 1v1 anyone as long as you're skilled enough !"
I'm starting to fear what will happen next for this game. When I learned to play LoL, you had to know basic strategy, like knowing who you can or cannot trade, adpating your build to an opponent, etc... Now it looks like players only want huge skillcap and baddass high mobility champs.
They're skilled enough to make great moves, but too stupid to think about the game they're playing :/
(Sry for bad english, have a cookie :3)
Judicas10 votesSo far on most sites i see him around the high 30%- low 40% range for wins. For a champ that was easy enough to avoid pre nerf errrr I'm sorry, pre "compensation" now he just... sucks. I apologize to the enemy team when i see they have one. I know there is absolutely NOTHING he can do to anyone really as long as they have even half a brain or are not having a seizure. Trying to figure out why he was so "toxic" according to riot. The stun was easy enough to avoid if you watched him waddle up to you. Then they even nerfed the ult and his Q ... sorry changing something to a skillshot that can not pass through things is a straight up nerf as he can no longer poke anyone competent. His R has a huge drop in damage so not only can he no longer really help the team with stuns, he cant even waddle in and delete a carry (because they didn't pay attention). Considering they have champs like Kalista who AA for 1k or umm well most ADC, or assassins that can delete anything but a pure tank in 1/5 a second (I'm looking at Nidalee, Talon, Zed). He payed the price for being able to do high damage to a single champ, that price was his retarded slow waddle. At least the community now understand the reason for the nerf, LCSBIGPLAYS. He was a niche champ that had a ton of counterplay in both champ selection AND items. now he... umm he is worthless.
Thryale2 votesprecisely. All of veig's old weaknesses are still there and all riot did was add more weaknesses to him.
riot asked us "can you imagine a world where veigar was extremely popular?"
well my response is "not really" why? because if veigar ever, by some miracle, became super popular, all it would take is the enemy to pick zed or talon and rip veigar a new one. I can't think of anything worse when I played old veig than seeing a talon or zed get insta locked. They can kill all but the most competent veigs in an instant. (and if veig were popular, 80% of veigs would not be that competent to survive)
So the fact that veigar already had natural predators is what will prevent him from ever feeling overbearing or becoming the leesin of the mid lane.
Not to mention, veigar can't hard carry a game like a zed can. Old veig could kill 1, 2 at best, champs with his spells in the 4-8 secs team fights usually last. Come late game, when everyone has a GA and/or banshee's, It won't matter if I'm breaking 1.3k ap, there will just be to many ppl for veig to kill.
Curling Veigar3 votesprecisely. All of veig's old weaknesses are still there and all riot did was add more weaknesses to him.
riot asked us "can you imagine a world where veigar was extremely popular?"
well my response is "not really" why? because if veigar ever, by some miracle, became super popular, all it would take is the enemy to pick zed or talon and rip veigar a new one. I can't think of anything worse when I played old veig than seeing a talon or zed get insta locked. They can kill all but the most competent veigs in an instant. (and if veig were popular, 80% of veigs would not be that competent to survive)
So the fact that veigar already had natural predators is what will prevent him from ever feeling overbearing or becoming the leesin of the mid lane.
Not to mention, veigar can't hard carry a game like a zed can. Old veig could kill 1, 2 at best, champs with his spells in the 4-8 secs team fights usually last. Come late game, when everyone has a GA and/or banshee's, It won't matter if I'm breaking 1.3k ap, there will just be to many ppl for veig to kill.
They don't need to pick any specific champion.
Specific items.
Zhonyas, QSS. Banshees. Mercs.
Thryale3 voteswhat did I just say? veig has his weaknesses. And the fact that ad assassins rip him a new one just exacerbates the problem. and now riot added even more weakness making said ad assassins even better against him.
I literally had a rengar kill me before he got stunned. He didn't even bother to move off the warning particle. He came out of his ult, and as he was in mid dash I drop my stun. I was dead before it even came up.
Bardia the Bard1 votesExactly. Most assassins can kill this squishiest and least mobile yordle before the .75 delay stun.
BrutusTheCat1 votesVeigar was really popular as a support in the Korean and Chinese leagues, and that is exactly what prompted the change watch some recent matches in the LPL Veigar is a very common pick/ban. I loved the little guy pre-nerf, mained him since season 1, but people were starting to see that his stun was op when played in a support roll.
I think he is lacking identity post nerfs but sadly his old stun could not stay in a world where he is a common pick, we got to enjoy him for as long as we did because everyone undervalued the power of his stun.
BuCkeT SeiZureS1 votesRiot has publicly announced they want more tactical counter play. Less strategic counter play. So that means, veigar getting countered by items was boring. A mid laner getting met treads and being able to handle him was not "fun." Honestly, if this is the case. Make the game like SMITE with only skill shots. Also remove items. Screw it, just remove abilities. Patch 5.5 To remove strategic counterplay, LoL has been replaced with DiveKick XD
Jefftiffy5 votesIt is ironic considering Veigar's kit is really flashy. You would think he would count towards LCS big plays.
A Superb Villain15 votesBut he isn't a backflipping ninja 
or a woman in lingerie 
, so his presentation is found wanting.
Wheatloaf3 votesI believe one of the Riot posts about Veigar said they wouldn't be able to schedule all the changes they might want to make into a single patch. They have to be careful, especially with a burst mage, because the game very quickly becomes unfun if they overbuff one (hence the changes they made to Veigar in the first place).
Also, so long as people complain both about Riot "removing" strategy and about things like Nasus, and Kalista's E stacking on monsters lacking counterplay, the community is going to retain some credibility issues on balancing.
Thryale3 votesthey said the same thing with Cass. It's been how many months now?
Bisaknosp2 votesyou call for buffs till he is op cant you all just shut up?
Thryale10 voteswe don't want number buffs. we want his gameplay shifted back to what made him fun. And what made him fun was his reliability.
SmokingPuffin2 votesMeddler mentioned that they're going to reevaluate where Veigar is after these buffs. They're willing to do further work if necessary (which I'm pretty sure it will be).
Thryale2 voteslike I said elsewhere, riot said the same thing about Cass. How many months has it been now?
SmokingPuffin3 votesCass was last touched two patches ago, 1/28. There's a lot of people that don't like the direction of her new kit being so focused on the E, but honestly she's in a good place right now from both a game health and balance standpoint.
There is a 0% chance Veigar stays a sub-40% win rate champion. Already some useful changes on PBE, and I expect to see more stuff the patch after that.
Thryale5 votesthe problem is pure win rate doesn't matter. It's all about how a champ feels and plays, and recently riot's been screwing around with a champ's playstyle and identity when buffing/nerfing them
When making changes to champs like veig and cass, riot really neglected to get the players opinion on why they enjoy the champ and what direction they want the champ to go in. I understand each champ had balance issues, and some changes may have been necessary to some degree. But that is besides the point.
With cass, riot fundamentally altered her core gameplay focus by changing her from a zone control/siege mage that melts opponents with powerful dots to a dps berserker that focused on mowing down targets one after the other. Their core argument for nerfing her poisons was that she was too strong of a lane bully that scaled too well into the late game. My response is simple: If her late game scaling is too strong, nerf the AP ratio on her E. That would allow her to retain her lane bullying power without becoming an insane monster late game. But instead they did the reverse.
Now riot is doing something similar with veigar. They are removing one of the core reasons players picked him (his reliability) and dangerously shifting his playstyle from his iconic single-target burst mage to a poorly done zone control poke mage. Number buffs are pointless atm because the core issue isn't about numbers and dmg, it's about play style.
SmokingPuffin2 votesWith cass, riot fundamentally altered her core gameplay focus by changing her from a zone control/siege mage that melts opponents with powerful dots to a dps berserker that focused on mowing down targets one after the other.
Old Cass was just as much about eye popping E damage as she was about DoTs.
Their core argument for nerfing her poisons was that she was too strong of a lane bully that scaled too well into the late game.
If Cass was just too strong at all points in the game, nerfing would have been easy. The problem was that Old Cass was an oppressive laner that ended up having no point in the late game. The need to simultaneously add counterplay to her laning and also buff her lategame is what make the rework such a challenge.
My response is simple: If her late game scaling is too strong, nerf the AP ratio on her E.
There was a way to make the poison mage players of Cass happy. The problem is that it would make the other side of the playerbase unhappy.
Now riot is doing something similar with veigar. They are removing one of the core reasons players picked him (his reliability) and dangerously shifting his playstyle from his iconic single-target burst mage to a poorly done zone control poke mage. Number buffs are pointless atm because the core issue isn't about numbers and dmg, it's about play style.
Reliable single target burst damage is not good for the game. I know Veigar players liked that. Doesn't matter. Can't support that fantasy in a competitive game.
Thryale4 votesIf Cass was just too strong at all points in the game, nerfing would have been easy. The problem was that Old Cass was an oppressive laner that ended up having no point in the late game. The need to simultaneously add counterplay to her laning and also buff her lategame is what make the rework such a challenge.
I think you fail to comprehend the whole point of the role "lane bully."
That is the sole reason you pick lane bullies is to try to shut down a dangerous lane opponent in the hopes that your team can take advantage of that. You do the heavy lifting in the early game so that your team can close the deal instead of waiting out till the late game and do your hard carrying then. A great example of a lane bully that was extremely popular in the past was renekton.
The reason lane bullies can be bad for game health is IF they do have a strong late game, that is when they become over bearing and a game health problem. Falling off in dmg late game is a cost they take for having such a successful laning phase. And I feel that due to the lack of lane bullies assassins are having a heyday with it. (that, and zed's laning phase is way too safe/easy)
Reliable single target burst damage is not good for the game. I know Veigar players liked that. Doesn't matter. Can't support that fantasy in a competitive game.
I strongly disagree. I fully believe a single-target burst play style can not only be healthy for league, but that the distinct lack of such champs is actually hurting league in the long run.
Having a champ dedicated to deleting one target causes players to actually think out what they are doing rather than blindly jumping into a fight and hoping they land their stuff before jumping out again. It also adds to the importance of positioning both before and during team fights by forcing players to realize that their dashes and flashes won't always save them from being stupidly out of place.
I find the distinct lack of inevitability causes players to forget about planning and the importance of each choice they make over the course of the game can have a lasting impact on how the rest of the game plays out.
Veigar in particular did this well. If you let him farm in lane without mercilessly crushing him, he will turn the tables on you. Veigar's theme is about certain demise and unrelenting revenge. And that translated well with his reliable kit. He created a "death zone" around him that all but the tankiest of champs should be scared silly to approach.
That being said, Veigar was far from being a "broken" champ. I've had numerous games where I was so fed, I had more gold than I knew what to do with, but despite it all, I could not win the game simply because after 40-50 min into the game, there are just too many enemies that need to be killed. And I can only kill so many of them within a certain time period. It didn't matter if I could do 3k burst dmg to a single target if they all had more than 2.5k hp and 100 MR. It's even worse when they all buy both a banshee's and a GA which completely negates my usefulness until my team can burn through their special defenses.
There are numerous ways to over come single target burst champs, and I believe that over the years, riot has slowly been taking away the need to use these methods in favor of reactive plays and such.
SmokingPuffin3 votesYou want the game to be about planning, thoughtful action, and strategic counterplay. My advice: play DotA. Your point of view on how things should work is considerably more aligned with that game's philosophy than this one.
Having high burst damage is fine. The problem is that his play pattern is too reliable for League to accommodate. Veigar's E doesn't fit in the game.
In this game, we don't have the tools to provide strategic counterplay against reliable play patterns. No BKB. No Orchid. No smoke. No hard counter lanes. Counterplay in League is about outplaying the opponent tactically or mechanically.
Thryale3 voteswhy does league have to be "either or"? That is the biggest problem with the ever growing rift in the player base atm.
Older players, such as myself, came to love league for many reasons, and it pains us to see league drift away from core gameplay styles that we grew to love about it. But at the same time, not all the change has been bad.
The problem here, is that league is swinging from one extreme to the other. We are losing one form of rich gameplay in exchange for another.
When I first started league, it was great. Was it perfect? Heck no! I've stuck with league for 5 years now and love it. Is it perfect? Heck no! The difference is 5 years ago, league was as you said "about strategic counterplay and thoughtful action." Now it has shifted to twitch plays and reactive mechanics. Neither of these are inherently bad. But the community is currently splitting apart and taking sides over which they want league to be.
See the issue?
What I'm trying to say, however, is that either one is only part of what league is. League isn't JUST reactive "LCS BIG PLAYS" nor is it JUST "thoughtful action and strategic counterplay." It's both.
And the sooner riot and the community realizes this, the sooner league can become a richer, fuller game for it. Simply picking sides will not make league a richer, fuller game, it will merely cause the community to self destruct and possibly cause a mass exodus to a competitor. None of which is, nor should, be a desirable outcome.
I fully believe that merging the two styles into one cohesive game is possible, it will take a lot of effort, yes, but it is not impossible.
Bardia the Bard1 votesI agree with everything you said, and upvoting it wasn't enough. Thank you for this well expressed, well thought out comment.
N30NP4NDA1 votesReliable single target burst damage is not good for the game. I know Veigar players liked that. Doesn't matter. Can't support that fantasy in a competitive game.
Bro, Bro, Bro, tons of people have reliable single target burst, and aoe burst, veigars only preblem was his e and it really was a tiny problem with the existance of zhonyas and qss
SmokingPuffin2 votestons of people have reliable single target burst
Who do you have in mind here?
There are many cases where reliable single target burst has been nerfed out of viability. Some examples:
veigars only preblem was his e and it really was a tiny problem with the existance of zhonyas and qss
E is indeed the problem with Old Veigar. That's what makes his play pattern reliable -- without it, he doesn't have any safe way to close and land the rest of his stuff.
I disagree that those items are acceptable counterplay for E. Cooldowns aren't even remotely comparable, and if they were the cure would be worse than the disease.
BuCkeT SeiZureS1 votesHonestly, I really have listened to your argument, and I do understand your view. I would love if veigars E got reworked to something more like a xerath stun that erupts into a cage (after a delay,of course). And veigars old E was broken, possibly beyond repair. But you say burst is gone? Ahri is still very much real. Vi has her point and click CC that can only be stopped through items or spell sheilds. And then there is Zed. He has plenty of burst and shows it often. As well as then jumping around. LeBlanc is back with her burst, destroying Adc in a second or less. Most poke/sustained damage mages are gone now. Ziggs and Xerath are pretty much the only ones left. I get people like seeing the flashy plays, but Xerath is not flashy. He is the opposite. And they like him where he is. He can also burst people from 3/4 health with good skill shots. Tldr; Veigar needed something done to his E. But the delay was a lazy answer. There are lots of burst laners still around that riot has no intention of "fixing"
SmokingPuffin1 votesNot burst. Burst is probably bigger than ever; certainly things aren't as tanky as they were in season 2. Reliable burst is gone.
The thing where Ahri could DFG your face, then R and W to make the kill without ever landing a skillshot is gone. The thing where LeBlanc and Talon had targeted silences that stopped you from fighting back against their burst is gone. Rengar is still a thing, but Rengar's targeted snare and triple Q are both gone. Burst now comes with twitch counterplay in approximately all cases.
I think Xerath has some really cool playmaking potential. The new ult has lots of tension to it. The way you can use new W to setup new E is sweet. I really like this kit now...but the reliable RRR burst from the old kit is gone.
I do think that Veigar's changes were half baked. I really like this new thing where the cage will block dashes. That's pretty awesome. I want W to become more of a standalone button, rather than only being good when someone gets hit with E.
BuCkeT SeiZureS1 votesWell my point about Zed still stands. His burst is very much point and click. It is also only countered by items or a few champ abilities. Not twitch reflexes.
However, anyone that argues that Veigar's old E was healthy is crazy. We can agree on that it needed to go. If they want to make Veigar good for twitch based reflexes, here are two things I see could work. Stun delay down to .25 seconds. At the moment, it is not a twitch based counterplay so much as it is a "slowly walk out" counterplay. Make people need to flash or jump to avoid the stun. Obviously the stun duration would have to go down though. The other would be to buff his W, remove the stun from E, but Make it instant again. While keeping champs locked inside if they jump, it would be interesting to see them dash around the inside of the cage in order to avoid meteors and His q. That would be a cool change, but then its like a Jarvan ult. The .75 second delay is just a time saver. Its not even good in team fights, really. The point in trying to make is that they could keep Veigars core idea and change his stun, but they didn't. And the fact that they didn't is really just laziness. Changing his stun takes work. Making it happen later does not.
SmokingPuffin1 votes[{quoted}](name=BuCkeT SeiZureS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y9TQhE4r,comment-id=0006000000000000000000020001000100010000,timestamp=2015-03-08T17:47:53.615+0000)
Well my point about Zed still stands. His burst is very much point and click. It is also only countered by items or a few champ abilities. Not twitch reflexes.
Only the R itself is guaranteed. Everything else in his combo is avoidable -- difficult to avoid, but avoidable. Then you have items, summoners, and champion abilities to work with, even if you fail to dodge the Q.
Zed has tons of counterplay. What he doesn't have is any hard counters. There's no champion you can go "ok, I picked X, so now Zed will lose lane for sure". You have to outplay him to win. However, the flip side of this is that you can beat Zed with dang near anything in mid.
Stun delay down to .25 seconds. At the moment, it is not a twitch based counterplay so much as it is a "slowly walk out" counterplay. Make people need to flash or jump to avoid the stun. Obviously the stun duration would have to go down though.
Certainly the timing can be adjusted. They seem to have gone overboard on the delay part -- 0.25 seconds cast, 0.5 seconds particle. I think we should try instant cast E, with the 0.5 seconds particle delay.
I do worry that the skill is going to push league of mobility even harder.
The other would be to buff his W, remove the stun from E, but Make it instant again. While keeping champs locked inside if they jump, it would be interesting to see them dash around the inside of the cage in order to avoid meteors and His q. That would be a cool change, but then its like a Jarvan ult.
That is a pretty cool idea. I worry that it's really really really good for competitive play, while not being so hot for solo queue.
The point in trying to make is that they could keep Veigars core idea and change his stun, but they didn't. And the fact that they didn't is really just laziness. Changing his stun takes work. Making it happen later does not.
It's a fair criticism. This new thing with the walls blocking dashes is great. Why didn't that show up as part of the initial package? Did we really need to delete Veigar for a patch? Could we not have waited until a reasonably complete set of changes was ready?
Many people have mistaken my tone for being cool with what happened to Veigar. Just so we're clear, not cool.
BuCkeT SeiZureS1 votesThe thing is zed's damage is pretty much unavoidable without the items, and at the moment, he is very strong at almost all points in the game. But I guess that wasn't the point. Besides, I am sure there will be something heading his way.
I actually have really enjoyed chatting with you about this. I like having an intellectual discussion where both sides present their views. Its great! And we can both agree veigar is in a terrible spot. Honestly, I would like veigar to get a stun rework. Something that in the end can stun and isn't broken. As it is, their determination is turning this into a delayed jarvan ult that people cant jump out of. I think it is dumb. If they just accept he needs a rework, things could be great, but they would prefer to leave him unusable than OP
Bardia the Bard1 votes" without it, he doesn't have any safe way to close and land the rest of his stuff."
Which makes the current veigar helpless to defend himself and impotent in attacking.