I don't get this complaint about adc's ?

option paralysis·Apr 21, 2017·64 votes·3,721 views

Every time someone one shots an ad carry, everybody's like "haahha adc's LUL". The same thing happened now on scarra stream with fizz, he one shot the enemy adc with REW and the whole chat is like "LUL adc's xDD". She had 0 MR built, pure dmg, so why should a caitlyn survive through his full burst ? If I play a full ad melee and get one shot, everybody's like "well retard, you're playing full ad". So, why the double standard for adc's ? I don't get it. If cait bought maw, she'd survive, just as I buy a maw if I'm playing against a fizz or something on a melee champ. I understand the AD DAMAGE CARRY, but I'd rather survive and fight longer than build full ad and cry how nobody should be able to touch adc's. Maw gives decent dmg anyways.

71 Comments

GankedByWindowsApr 21, 201730 votes

Because adcs can't itemize defensively. Yes, she could've gotten maw. But that sets her so far behind in teamfights because of the lack of crit that it won't be close. If you adc itemizes defensively and theres doesn't, they win so handily it doesn't matter that she could survive. It was part of the reason that support malzahar was so strong. Not only did he have huge damage as a support, but it also forced a QSS buy. That is why you only see defensive items as a 6th item, or defensive boots because they're so much cheaper than real defensive items.

PennsApr 21, 20174 votes

Well if you itemize greedily (I.. think thats a word. Should be one lol) as adc, then you should either be positioning to not get caught by assassins or not complain about dying. Sure assassins can be op too if you cant position against them but Fizz ult is a slow skillshot.

ErockandrollApr 21, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Well if you itemize greedily (I.. think thats a word. Should be one lol) as adc, then you should either be positioning to not get caught by assassins or not complain about dying. Sure assassins can be op too if you cant position against them but Fizz ult is a slow skillshot.

The issue with the ADC being the primary DPS is that it's effectively an Arms Race. If your ADC sacrifices any DPS for durability, they will deal way less damage to enemy champs/structures/neutral objectives compared to your opponent.

As for positioning, that limits where the ADC can actually be without good vision, and they really can invest in vision without sacrificing DPS. (which is why the support supplies the vision) Also, if your primary method of dealing with better duelists is "kite to death" then you would effectively be losing ground when you kite, until the point where the poke starts adding up. (And that could be a while against a tank or fighter) And because they can't "Stand their ground" they become quite poor a defending objectives.

If you can't tell, I'm pretty much discontent with playing an ADC. They lose so much in their independence, making it difficult to actually turn a fight around if things go south. But it's technically a fair trade off for their superior objective taking power. And on top of that, because they are so DPS oriented, they become completely useless when they fall behind.

LauchmelderApr 21, 201725 votes

That's one more reason to call the "ADC lul" meme a complete bullshit.

ADCs get blown up by AP assassins and burst mages and somehow that's a problem, when those champions are MEANT to do this.

GankedByWindowsApr 21, 20178 votes

I'm not saying they aren't mean to do it. I'm saying that building defensively isn't an option either. ADCs are in a great spot right now. When that meme started it was Jhin/Varus lethality playing so far back because if you picked any crit adc you did no damage even going full damage and got one shot as well. It is much better now.

SilverjustApr 21, 20172 votes

I think krit is still a bit weak, so most adc's build botrk

GankedByWindowsApr 21, 20178 votes

I don't think Crit is necessarily weak, but the games are too fast for crit builds to really come into play. If we had slower games crit would be relatively better. But as it stands botrk adcs can build that way because the games don't go long enough to show the weakness when it gets to 4-5 items.

SpoofghoulApr 21, 20171 votes

i don't think the botrk builds really have much of a weakness besides dealing less damage in the lategame then crit builds

meanwhile they provide more power earlier Crit builds are pretty retarded damage wise come late game, but even those botrk builds are insane in the late game

Anyway that abuse happens all the time We had botrk builds, flat pen builds, lethality builds, and back to botrk builds, with the occasional abuse of defensive items in between

you know what that tells me?

defensive item abuse means they don't need 5x damage items to murder everyone with 1-3 attacks lategame which is kinda telling secondly the on hit/ pen abuse tells us they scale too slowly and seek for ways to be relevant sooner

their power curve is completely messed up and there in lies the true issue with adc's

OMGSoAnnoyingApr 22, 20171 votes

The three main ADC build types all work, but there are inherent weaknesses.

If you're building crit, you need to get to your third full item (zeal item, IE and another item, either another zeal item or BT) before you're really relevant. However, when you get there and if you're able to be defended, the other team needs to watch out. Figure... 25 mins to get on-line unless you get fed.

If you're doing the on-hit BORK/Cleaver/etc build, sure you spike one item sooner. That is huge. However, you need to abuse that spike and get your snowball on pretty much right there before the enemy tanks (if there are tanks) get to THEIR third defensive item. Once that happens, they will simply laugh at you, and then you start losing team fights. Figure you get on-line around 20 minutes. -- Case in point, enemy Lucian has bork, cleaver, and BT. Our 280-armor Hecarim just ran him down. He barely took 600 damage from a full Culling... and didn't care. Later, the same guy ate a whole Rank 3 MF ult (also with BC, forget the other items), it didn't look like it did more than 25% of his HP. One caveat, neither of these marksmen had a last whisper item.

If you're doing the lethality path (still viable on a couple ADC), you spike on your first item which is usually item 3142 . Great. You best start your snowball before Baron spawns, or else again, tanks get to around... 150 armor and stop caring. You get that spike at around 15 minutes-ish.

SpoofghoulApr 22, 20171 votes

i think the issue with hecarim only losing about 25% hp has more to do with him grabbing cotc and healing from his W meanwhile nuking, because he does with his speed and passive, and disrupting the adc it's hard to avoid too because hes faster and its point and click

if you want to spike throughout the game you could go for a combination of youmous, botrk, cleaver then crit You can still get 50% crit from items that way. which although not as reliable as some of the 80-100 % crit builds still offers somewhat reliable crit but you will be more reliant on allies for defense though it does offer some options for defense and self peel with cleavers hp a possible PD for reductions and a defensive choice of boots if needed. It also gives 4 ways to boost your speed for kiting purposes.

Although pen and defense is getting changes soon

might actually bring pen builds back, hp is going down and armor is going up which makes penetration more valuable so we might end up seeing adc shift away from botrk back to stacking pen yet again

Especially with an additional snowball option in herald, stronger mr and situational defense like gargoyle plate and the increased crit reduction of randuin In fact we might see them abuse the new mr item as well when they do go for critbuilds because it makes them immune to tanks who often rely on reoccurring magic damage and it also makes them harder to kill/damage for most supports and mages

keep an eye out for it and then think back on what i said about the adc powercurve in my previous comment

personally think riot missed a giant opportunity in the preseason 6 adc update where they could have fixed this powercurve. Next opportunity would be preseason 8 Because changing it has a huge impact on the game since adc have been in a slightly broken state since the start conveniently putting games on a timer for riot but also causing balance issues allover Their sole identity has been dps to deal with objectives faster and it's a missed opportunity as they could have been more then just dps

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 22, 20171 votes

I'm saying that building defensively isn't an option either.

Its not true, its an option unless the menace is AD. It isn't unusual to see adc sit on item 3155 item 3140 ... and there also for some item 3091 .

If you adc itemizes defensively and theres doesn't, they win so handily it doesn't matter that she could survive.

it depend on the game... but in op exemple, if u don't build rm and u always die its exactly the same situation. ennemy team have adc dps and u can't do same because u are dead.

GankedByWindowsApr 22, 20171 votes

It is pretty unusual. Even in professional games where their team can play around the fact they're behind, they don't build those items unless they absolutely 100% have to and only at least 2 items in.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 22, 20171 votes

im 100% sure i've seen 3 maw (adc inclued... was sivir btw) last weak. But yeah its unusual, but still an decent option (u can see this on many different adc on probuild).

WheatloafApr 21, 20176 votes

The "ADC lul" meme is bullshit because it originated during that recent (and brief) period in which the role was genuinely weak, but now however many months later people are still parroting it.

ForgiveColourApr 21, 20172 votes

Yeah it becomes a problem when they do it with extreme amount of safety and scales well and fucks your whole team

MunchCrunchLunchApr 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Because adcs can't itemize defensively. Yes, she could've gotten maw. But that sets her so far behind in teamfights because of the lack of crit that it won't be close. If you adc itemizes defensively and theres doesn't, they win so handily it doesn't matter that she could survive. It was part of the reason that support malzahar was so strong. Not only did he have huge damage as a support, but it also forced a QSS buy. That is why you only see defensive items as a 6th item, or defensive boots because they're so much cheaper than real defensive items.

rekkless made it work on the world stage with kennen and hell 2 other adcs building hp items and banshee veil

just an execuse.

GankedByWindowsApr 21, 20175 votes

Rekkles has an entire professional team dedicated around the fact he is playing that niche pick. look at their team comps. They all have big damage to compensate for having a utility style adc. Solo queue teams are not going to build around you.

Rock MDApr 21, 201710 votes

ADC in 2k17 came about because Poppy would build a Sunfire Cape and you couldn't even dream of damaging her until 5 items in.

People who use it to refer to getting wrecked assassins are stupid.

MelledoneusApr 21, 20173 votes

I'm a general advocate of tanks, but even I can't defend the inherent bullshit that is Poppy.

KarfussApr 21, 20176 votes

A squishy assassin ruining an ADC's day is more than fair.

A tanky bruiser with one or two offensive items doing the same, is far from fine.

ModAcademy KaynApr 22, 20174 votes

A tanky bruiser with one or two offensive items doing the same, is far from fine

If you're complaining about damage by Tanky Bruisers, it really doesn't take much damage to kill a squishy ADC...If you're talking about them in general, that's why ADCs have a team and a front line. If that Tanky Brusier can get through all that, they kinda deserve to kill 'em.

Sp33d Zer0Apr 22, 20174 votes

ADCs CAN have a front line.

Unless your Team goes Riven, Kha'zix, Le Blanc, Zyra, or some variation of this line up.

Damage carries are the most popular picks in each role probably 80% of the time if I had to guess, which means you are not that likely to have a front line at all. Hopefully the tank update changes that.

DemainaNyxApr 22, 20171 votes

I had a team like this.

My team was Fizz, Lee, Karthus, Caitlyn (me) and Sona. Enemy team was Lux, Rengar, Xerath (not the broken script one), Kog'Maw, Ashe. There team was all normal builds except Ashe. Fizz was tank Fizz and Karthus built fine. Lee went full damage build. My Sona had Thunderlords while building Morello, Athene, Redemption, Lich Bane, Eye, Ludens (70% CDR by my count) while the enemy Ashe support had Bond of Stone and Ardent Censer, Eye, Knight's Vow, SV, Ionian, Runaan's.

I got one shot by Rengar a few time, so I built Phantom Dancer and Death's Dance cause Sona never wanted to ult him when he dove me. After surviving a few encounters, Rengar would ult me and Xerath would finish me off with his ult. Suddenly, my Lee Sin goes all "CAITLYN, WHY BUILD THOSE CRAPPY ITEMS. YOU NEED RUNAAN BT." I told him I can't cause no one wants to keep Rengar off me, to which he says he'll peel for me, and then instantly dives into the enemy team while Rengar ults me again while I'm standing by Sona and Karthus.

Yeah, Runaan's and BT are ideal on Caitlyn, if you don't instantly die in 0.6 seconds. If you do though and assuming it's not happening cause you are stupidly positioned, then building defensive is sometimes the only way you can survive as an ADC with all these "carries" around.

PartholonianApr 22, 20171 votes

If your team drafts no frontline and your opponents have a frontline, your team deserves to lose teamfights. If you don't snowball the early game with your damage comp, focus on splitpushing or getting picks or something.

It can suck that as ADC you can't control that your team goes full squishy without having a plan for how to turn that into a win, but sometimes you lose some games because of teammates' bad decisions and that isn't going to go away in a team game.

If neither team has a frontline, then you don't need a full damage build to punch through their tanks because they don't have any tanks. That is exactly when an anti-burst build is useful.

In any case, don't expect to duel a bruiser without peel from your teammates and come out ahead, unless you are Vayne and well up in gold. A state of the game where ADCs can duel well is a state where they are broken. (And a big part of other roles ostentatiously drinking 2017 ADC tears is them remembering the several times in the game's history when ADCs have, in fact, been stupidly OP practically class-wide. ADCs who subconsciously want to go back to that have unreasonable expectations that Riot should not accommodate.)

TLDR: Balanced ADCs can be 1v1'd by some other roles, especially assassins, burst mages and bruisers. ADCs who don't want to be killable by those roles just want to be OP, which is understandable but Riot shouldn't give it to them.

TheSnackenApr 23, 20171 votes

There's always Urgod

On a serious note, this is a pretty substantial pain point as an ADC main. I'm not convinced there's any easy solution to this, but I think about it a lot.

KarfussApr 22, 20171 votes

I don't think you need me to tell you, just how many bruisers have dive abilities that go over and around front lines.

Or mention, that you in fact do not have a front line at ALL stages of the game.

ModAcademy KaynApr 22, 20173 votes

I don't think I need to tell you, that Tanks, support, Bruisers (The norm Front line) have CC that stops that.

OMGSoAnnoyingApr 22, 20171 votes

Some of it cannot be stopped.

It puts a massive smile on my face when I'm ulting in as Vi and half the enemy team's cc gets blown on me. Bonus drool if it's Lulu's damn Polymorph.

Another solid way to terrify someone? Olaf.

Champion SkinApr 23, 20171 votes

Vi ult can't be stopped you say? TahmKench I disagree

Ahh Tahm support is so much fun sometimes.... it also so much fun screwing over enemies who pick Tryndamere by eating him when he uses ult negating most of it

Blackstone01Apr 22, 20171 votes

Not in a 1v1 scenario. Unless ahead or Vayne ADCs shouldn't really be able to 1v1 anybody that well.

macromiteApr 22, 20176 votes

because adc is a cancer class becuase riot doesn't count attack range to power budget so the only reliable way to fight more than half of them is to kill them before they can react.

IGotScuttleCrabsApr 22, 20172 votes

The real problem is if you don't nuke the ADC then they're just going to life steal through the fight and drop crit bombs on you. The game has always heavily favored "kill the adc and you probably won't the fight".

Zero Skill TankApr 23, 20171 votes

Yeah. Melee carries like Yasuo get insane mobility, doubled stats, more CC than any marksman has and a windshield that is second most powerful ability in the game after Stand United, all because they are melee.

But Riot doesn't factor range.

Rite.

macromiteApr 23, 20171 votes

yas is the exception,

MasterYi Tryndamere Jax

None of these guys have much more than any adc in all reality, and they are meant to build the same or atleast very similar.

Zero Skill TankApr 24, 20171 votes

Of course they do. Master and Trynd deal way more damage than an ADC, and have obviously more powerful defense mechanism - do I need to convince you that no marksman in the game can ignore death for 5 seconds?

Jax is kind of different, people say that he is a melee carry but he is balanced for bruiser builds since forever. This is due to outdated design mostly - his ult forces him to actually tank damage, unlike other "real" melee carries.

PennsApr 21, 20174 votes

Saying "adc in 2k17 xd" when an assassin oneshot an adc was always stupid, but at least it made some sense back then because adc was in a pretty bad spot.

Now its like one of, if not the strongest role in the game and almost all adcs are viable, so... ye lol.

JackMcSnipeyzApr 21, 20173 votes

I've never seen people say that when assassin kills an adc, thats fair. What's not fair is tank hecarim with just trinity 1 shotting me, or vi or anyone else who builds close to 0 offense and still shits on carries (both AP and AD) Just look at cancer botlane with all the supports just going into lane bursting anyone out of lane.

TurquoiseYoshiApr 21, 20173 votes

It's Twitch chat. It's not actual game balance. They're the same people who literally cannot show emotion except in years-old memes.

Neeko N DimeApr 21, 20172 votes

I mean its the assassins whole point of existence to eliminate the carries. On the other hand its the adcs job to do damage and the support to peel and help prevent assassination with whatever support item, exhaust, etc. Adc is in a good spot right now. At beginning of s7 it was hell for them though i won't lie Also the bork changes benefited adcs over the champs that actually built the item previously (bruisers). So ya, adcs stop bitching. <3

Chembaron YamadaApr 22, 20171 votes

I think the main problem is that you are a walking target as the adc. You get the feeling that many subclasses have 1 major job: killing the adc.

Divers? They dive in your team to murder your adc and then their team follows up for a grown teamfight. Assassins? Jumping in your team, instantly deleting the adc and jumping out again. Burst mages? Using ranged CC and damage to kill the adc.

I play every role in this game. When I get fed as the top laner, jungler or midlaner, I am usually pretty relaxed in the game. When I am fed as the adc, I get extremely nervous. Just because I know for example that the enemy has a diver and an assassin both having the main job of taking me out of the game. Yes, there is counterplay, I don't deny that. But mostly you are relying on your team for that counterplay. If the diver or assassin is coming after you, you need your team to peel them away from you and helping you defend yourself.

To point it out clearly: I don't say that adcs are underpowered or anything like that. I just think it feels like everyone is after you in this game subjectively.

Champion SkinApr 23, 20171 votes

Well that's because if the enemy ADC doesn't die... your team likely will because of how much damage ADC's can deal and their damage is often based around auto attacks which doesn't really have much of a downtime so they can rip the whole enemy team apart if not dealt with

This also most of the reason why Tahm support is even remotely good since most of what he has to offer is the protection of a single ally with his W (with some single target slows with his Q and the occasional W on enemies... sometimes his ult has some uses)

DaNinadApr 21, 20172 votes

Honestly all these adcs in 2k17lul people don't know what they are talking about. If you don't want an adc getting one shot there is a shit ton of items that can give you good defensive and offensive stats like the previously broken edge of night.

Ariel the CruelApr 22, 20174 votes

there is a shit ton of items that can give you good defensive and offensive stats

Vayne I've got plenty of those! SLAVE, front and center! Taric item 3504 item 3107 item 3190 item 3401 item 3109 item 3222 I see the beauty in everything. . . Except you. (>_>)

MannnyApr 22, 20172 votes

Crit ADCs cant itemize defensively really. This is why most ADCs like Lucian just go a bruiser kind of build. It's just better.

ZerenzaApr 22, 20171 votes

I often don't see that said about assassin's killing ADC's, it's usually when a tank does. If an assassin kills an adc, that's completely fair, no ammount of defensive itemization should realistically protect a squishy adc from an assassin. Not to mention i don't get the meme that much either cause when i get two shot by vayne as an assassin i'm salty as fuck, and she isn't the only adc that can do it. I love taking 1000 damage from a single, undodgable auto attack, it gives me sustenance.

Champion SkinApr 22, 20171 votes

Ahh yeah... well it was really fun that one time I killed the enemy Ezreal as Tahm support 1v1... with the only damaging item I had was item 3742 Though it did take a while because of him having item 3025 item 3153 to try and kite me (but no MR or HP items)

Well it probably did help to that I had 600 more gold and was 1 level higher and Ezreal mostly just ran instead of fighting back (but wasn't able to escape obviously since I killed him 1v1)

Here's the match if interested http://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/1692336356/35858965?tab=overview (it was around 38 min on the timeline)

h5LYF41LamApr 22, 20171 votes

sometimes its not the full ap fizzz,sometimes the tanky darius comes and guns down my adc in 4 seconds while my adc barely takes 15% of his hp.

NastyMcOutplayApr 22, 20171 votes

Well I mean Darius is normally going to be about two levels ahead of your adc , has more early game power and is more built so yeah, he will kill them quick early on, especially f they are too garbage to kite

Ahri a StarkApr 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=tough noogies,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y1GFkl8Y,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-21T18:37:03.896+0000)

Every time someone one shots an ad carry, everybody's like "haahha adc's LUL". The same thing happened now on scarra stream with fizz, he one shot the enemy adc with REW and the whole chat is like "LUL adc's xDD". She had 0 MR built, pure dmg, so why should a caitlyn survive through his full burst ? If I play a full ad melee and get one shot, everybody's like "well retard, you're playing full ad". So, why the double standard for adc's ? I don't get it. If cait bought maw, she'd survive, just as I buy a maw if I'm playing against a fizz or something on a melee champ. I understand the AD DAMAGE CARRY, but I'd rather survive and fight longer than build full ad and cry how nobody should be able to touch adc's. Maw gives decent dmg anyways.

The Problem is: there is nearly no counterplay as adc

For example the enemie has Syndra.. what the fck can i do vs syndra as an adc? sometimes i get os just with her ult and a q who didn't even hit me.

YOU CAN'T JUST BUILD MAW. You will get outscaled into oblivion when you build this early on an adc.

LoL is crack yoApr 24, 20171 votes

The problem isn't that an adc can get oneshot, but how easy it is for many powerful champs to close the distance to the adc. These days almost every viable damagechamp has some sort of gap-gloser. It is also the reason why Lucian and ez are so popular