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How does Riot determine health costs on Aatrox/Mundo/Vlad/etc...

AHarmlessTaco··3 votes·813 views

How on earth does Riot determine what kind of health costs someone has??? I'm sitting here looking at Aatrox and Mundo and Vlad and I see a mixture of %current, %max, flat, and flat scaling with AD. How... what is the paradigm used to determine what kind of health costs these things should have?? I mean I guess EX: Soraka it is to dissuade people from building health// but I don't really get the rest of them.

For anyone interested in why, I am trying to develop a champion concept for the fun of it. Whether you check it out or not really only has to do with specific scenarios of each of the abilities and why they might use one health cost over another. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/VUhcv11l-champion-concept-vizoroth-the-swarm-lord

ALSO, I guess I should ask this too: What determines if someone should have a heal based on %missing hp, %max hp, or a flat heal?? Like, why does Darius have a %missing heal while Maokai has a %max heal?

44 Comments

Marshbouy4 votes

It's probably like "well this seems like too much health and this seems like too little" and fine tuning over time.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I could see that being the case once they decide on something, but how do they choose a starting point? D:

Marshbouy1 votes

interior testing?

Talisid4 votes

Generally abilities that have a cost of %CurrentHealth are ones that your are encouraged to use while low on health like Vladimir pool or DrMundo ultimate.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Then why does Aatrox's ENGAGE have a %current health cost? Same with his E... I can definitely see your point on your examples though.

Talisid2 votes

I don't know bro Aatrox is a mess. Its best not to dwell on the design decisions that lead to his current state and just wait for an overhaul.

Though you can consider how that health cost works in conjunction with his Bloodwell mechanic. It may beneficial for him to spend a chunk of his health upfront during an engagement to fill it, while at the same time making his Q less costly when he wants to use it to escape.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Alright, you and the guy below (above?) make a good point. I guess I didn't think about it that way. Aatrox is such a strange champion to me.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

who is this aatrox you speak of? is it a new champ coming out ?

Brutalitops013 votes

{quoted}

Then why does Aatrox's ENGAGE have a %current health cost? Same with his E... I can definitely see your point on your examples though.

Aatrox's abilities have % current health costs because of his passive. His passive has him charge it from the health he sacrifices to his abilities, and the % current health costs are a part of the passive as well. They're there to give him incentive to use them from full health for the full effect of his passive, giving him more HP back when he revives using it.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I... I guesssss.... I mean it would keep him from charging it at all when he is already low though. I guess that might be where the W comes in for that triple heal... which I now realize is actually only a 50% AD heal because of the 25% cost... Ah he is a strange beast...

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

The cost is only applicable when using Aatrox's W for damage.

There is no health cost for proc'ing the heal.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

however due to item 3165 built on any mage. and damage meta. currently undo is encourages to ult at around 70% hp.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

they just put a bunch of #s on paper put it into a hat shake it up and draw

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Shiz, I made this WAY too complicated then....

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

use the KISS method ... Keep It Simple Stupid lol

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Hey now, some of us aren't simple men.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

lol sometimes being simple minded is being smarter then the over thinker

while you sit there and over think it the simple minded just does it

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Yeah, but then magically the exam question was a trick question that everyone gets wrong except for that one kid who spent way too long on his homework... T_T

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

forrest gump was a simple man got alot in life

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I lack the gumption to disagree with on that one. ;D

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but then magically the exam question was a trick question that everyone gets wrong except for that one kid who spent way too long on his homework... T_T

Actually more often than not, overthinking things causes you to screw up at the higher level. I should know, being an overthinker myself.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

just slam your head into the wall a few times before you play and you should be good

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y0gRELJX,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-11-03T23:04:05.580+0000)

just slam your head into the wall a few times before you play and you should be good

But then I have a debilitating migraine, what do?

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

well if your me i have to take 1000mg amoxicillin , 10mg of montelukast , 10 mg of dexmethylphenidate and 25 mg of levothroxine

along with nasacort, clartin-d and other supplements

a day

all prescribed or directed by DR

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y0gRELJX,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-03T23:29:18.922+0000)

well if your me i have to take 1000mg amoxicillin , 10mg of montelukast , 10 mg of dexmethylphenidate and 25 mg of levothroxine

along with nasacort, clartin-d and other supplements

a day

all prescribed or directed by DR

That seems safe 👍🏻

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

well i woke yesterday with strep and coughing blood from throat being jacked and swollen

hence the amoxicillin

the monetlukast , nasacort and clartin-d for allergies

the levothroxine for the thyroid disease i was diag with a month ago

the dexmethyphenidate (legal speed ) for my sleep disorders so i can stay away and function through the day and not sleep while driving

but the kicker is my genetic blood disorder that fuks my immune system that i can do anything about

isnt life grand ?

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Pierce The Veal1 votes

I got asthma when I was a kid from a viral infection. It could have been fixed if we had the medicine of today, but no, they didn't believe us when we told them my asthma wasn't genetic.

I injured my back this year, so now I am pretty much permanently injured for the rest of my life.

I got whooping cough this week, and I've been coughing so hard I vomit and also have nose bleeds.

I got accepted to medical school and ended up not going due to life issues. Isn't that wonderful?

I have some unidentified sleep disorder myself. Difficulty sleeping all the time no matter what; waking up in the middle of the night from time to time. There are times I'll lie in bed for hours on end and be unable to sleep.

And I have some sort of depression since I was in 4th grade, that nobody ever actually identified as depression. Now 10+ years later I'm still dealing with it, but it's permanently altered the way I think.

You're right, life is wonderful.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

hit by drunk driver on highway , nerve damage in neck n back

pinched sciatic nerve in left hip

Pierce The Veal1 votes

Sounds like a living nightmare.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Actually more often than not, overthinking things causes you to screw up at the higher level. I should know, being an overthinker myself.

Maybe that's why I'm still in Bronzeville.... (gold but same thing right?)

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

bronze /gold sure just need to be polished a bit

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe that's why I'm still in Bronzeville.... (gold but same thing right?)

There's pretty much 0 difference between Plat V- bronze IV.

I mean, technically the difference is significant, but the difference isn't in talent but rather effort.

Brutalitops011 votes

% max health: unless it scales with the health cost, it's there to dissuade people from using it on full health. If it scales with how much health was sacrificed, it's there to influence people to use it with more health to get stronger effects at a higher cost.

% current health: Pretty much only there to try to get people to use it on low health. It's part of the strategy for a champion. Vladimir's pool is a good example, it's his only escape and all it does is make him invulnerable and give him a movement speed buff. Imagine if someone had an invulnerability move (Fizz) with next to no drawbacks other than losing the damage (Fizz) and it's on such a low cooldown that they didn't have to care (Fizz), they'd just be spamming that to avoid every ability you throw at them and be unable to die ever. Vlad's W costing % max health mans that, most of the time, he's going to use it when low to escape something rather than when full to avoid an ability because he would take more damage from the pool that he would from the ability.

Flat: There for when the ability should be spammable and doesn't have any inherent negatives to being spammable. Mundo's Q is a good example. It's low cooldown, very important to his kit, and has a flat health cost that allows him to spam it as much as he wants, but because 1 individual use of it isn't too strong and it's a skillshot, it doesn't have inherent balance problems just for existing in this state.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Aside from some wording hiccups (Vlad W costing max health), I think I get what you're saying about how the health paradigm affects timing of the skills. I just think it is really odd how Mundo's and Mordekaiser's abilities just.. dont have a cost late game. It makes me think flat health is purely an early game gating mechanic.

Like, why doesn't Vlad's Q have a flat health cost then as an early gate? Ah it's just strange. Thanks though.

Brutalitops011 votes

{quoted}

Aside from some wording hiccups (Vlad W costing max health), I think I get what you're saying about how the health paradigm affects timing of the skills. I just think it is really odd how Mundo's and Mordekaiser's abilities just.. dont have a cost late game. It makes me think flat health is purely an early game gating mechanic.

Like, why doesn't Vlad's Q have a flat health cost then as an early gate? Ah it's just strange. Thanks though.

Vlad's Q doesn't have a flat health cost because it is his heal. His W isn't a reliable heal because it'll cost more than it heals in most situations, so the heal may as well not even exist at all. His ultimate heals him based on number of enemies hit after a delay, and he'd be lucky if he could survive that long without the heals from Q if he already used pool before ulting. Sure, he heals a lot from it, but he just isn't going to survive long enough without his Q heal. Also, his Q has a fairly long cooldown in the early game. Putting a flat health cost on the only reliable heal mechanic of a champion who relies on that heal to stay alive would be just stupid. Add in that Vlad typically doesn't build enough health to make his health costs nonexistent later into the game without Spirit Visage, and he just doesn't have a reason to have a cost on his Q at all. All that it would do is make his early game even worse until he gets enough AP/points into it to outheal the health cost, making it basically a nonfactor.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Aherm. I guess that makes sense. Yeah okay, I feel dumb. Thanks. :P

RadiatedApples1 votes

Mordekaiser

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Zac

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

Mordekaiser

For mordekaiser flat hp costs make sense. It would feel terrible playing mordekaiser if you had to deal with %hp costs when your heal is only flat. It would dissuade health stacking, which would be contrary to what mordekaiser as a juggernaut is expected to do, stack health.

Failog1 votes

Pff dude you think Riot actually thinks about this? Their shit is so arbitrary, its fucking amateur hour at Riot...for the last 10 years.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

Darius the logic behind his being a %missing hp heal is sound. His goal is to prolong fights as long as possible. With that in mind, he's also a frontline juggernaut meant to take some serious damage but also is meant to have a weakness in that his optimal positioning is hard to get due to low mobility.

A 12-36% max heal would be hilariously oppressive, the percentage is way too damn high. What's maokai's heal, like 5% max hp? However, at the same time, if darius only got something like 5-15% max heal, it wouldnt reward him enough for great positioning. The compromise with the high missing % heal is that it isn't oppressive at all times (particularly if he's damaged but still has a good portion of his hp bar, he wont receive a notable heal) but it's still very rewarding in certain conditions, particularly if he gets it before he is about to die. The high reward condition also coincides with his desire to massively prolong fights (just when you think he is going down you suddenly have a 1000 or more hp to burn through first).

It's definitely not black and white, how riot decides on these things, but I hope I helped you in giving one particular philosophy they might have taken in regards to the issue in the OP.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Darius' case is clear, as is Illaio's and Mundo's for example. Darius and Illaio are to be rewarded for engaging a fight and getting low then popping back up and extending the fight. Mundo gets a big fat heal because he uses current health as a cost which already makes him want to be low. No need to double dip.

What I wonder though, if why Darius doesn't have say a 9-27% max heal at all times, and why Maokai doesn't have a 9% missing health heal. You know? It just seems odd to me that Darius seems SO MUCH TANKIER than someone like Maokai just because he gets that massive heal so often. Idk I will think it over.

Thanks for the feedback though. :D

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

Darius' case is clear, as is Illaio's and Mundo's for example. Darius and Illaio are to be rewarded for engaging a fight and getting low then popping back up and extending the fight. Mundo gets a big fat heal because he uses current health as a cost which already makes him want to be low. No need to double dip.

What I wonder though, if why Darius doesn't have say a 9-27% max heal at all times, and why Maokai doesn't have a 9% missing health heal. You know? It just seems odd to me that Darius seems SO MUCH TANKIER than someone like Maokai just because he gets that massive heal so often. Idk I will think it over.

Thanks for the feedback though. :D

Maokai's heal is a ton more reliable. It's literally getting an auto attack off. And Maokai has a lot of other durability tools under his belt, like his ultimate. The % max heal allows him to capitalize on healing from the start of a fight. But like any other tank, once he starts to get shredded, he'll have a hard time recuperating. If he had juggernaut-level sustain with the reliability of his mechanics and added durability with his kit and preferred build path, he'd be near unkillable.

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