In addition to mostly having very strong late games? Namely champions like 
. Seems pretty fucking stupid that i go oom trying to harass him and he just effortless is able to clear the waves and go in for trades that drop half my healthbar when he doesnt enough have items.
Glîtchy18 votes
all have stupid strong early and late game alongside Yasuo, the problem lies with each champ's design
Katarina: due to many of her lane opponents requiring mana she can easily snowball them out of lane and gets some early turret pressure thanks to them having to recall and getting kills/assists resets ALL cooldowns in her kit, while ult is less cooldown reduction it might as well be full reset since it's a stupid short cooldown anyway.
Renekton and Aatrox: both are early game bullies and don't really do much beyond that unless they get WAY ahead
Garen: they rebalance him by modifying his numbers, not really anything else.
NemeBro7 votes
Not one of these champions save Yasuo has a strong late game.
Glîtchy3 votesNot one of these champions save Yasuo has a strong late game.
Katarina not having a strong late game, what you thinking? And yes the other 3 do have strong late game, clearly you neglected what I said about Renek and Aatrox, they both dominate late if they get far ahead enough early on
NemeBro3 votesKatarina not having a strong late game, what you thinking?
http://na.op.gg/champion/katarina/statistics/mid
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Katarina/
Win rate takes a sharp nose dive late game, as supports get items to protect their carries from her burst and damage is so high she is much more easily bursted.
She is, at best, okay late game.
And yes the other 3 do have strong late game, clearly you neglected what I said about Renek and Aatrox, they both dominate late if they get far ahead enough early on
That doesn't mean they are strong late game, that means that they snowballed hard enough to end the game before the enemy team gets their items and they fall off. If those champions fail to close the game out and everyone is five or six items their effectiveness heavily diminishes, as opposed to carries like ADCs, Yasuo, Cassiopiea, or Fiora.
Why shouldn't that be the case? Should strong early game champions be incapable of closing out the game if they get a strong early lead? Then they would be garbage.
Glîtchy1 voteshttp://na.op.gg/champion/katarina/statistics/mid
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Katarina/
Win rate takes a sharp nose dive late game, as supports get items to protect their carries from her burst and damage is so high she is much more easily bursted.
She is, at best, okay late game.
That doesn't mean they are strong late game, that means that they snowballed hard enough to end the game before the enemy team gets their items and they fall off. If those champions fail to close the game out and everyone is five or six items their effectiveness heavily diminishes, as opposed to carries like ADCs, Yasuo, Cassiopiea, or Fiora.
Why shouldn't that be the case? Should strong early game champions be incapable of closing out the game if they get a strong early lead? Then they would be garbage.
Note how I said "if they get ahead enough" you're completely neglecting that part and just repeating what I said.
Pika Fox5 votesIf a melee champion who is squishy is going into trades and chunking your health... Its not because their early game is good, its because youre walking up to them.
Teridax683 votesBy design, being resourceless gives an advantage in the early game, because the laning phase forces champions to stay in the same spot for as long as possible, and thereby pushes for resource conservation. Because resourceless champions have no resource to conserve (besides health), all else held equal, they'll have an advantage early on. This in itself could be fine, but as mentioned in the OP, the problem with many of these champions is that they're frequently made to scale too well. Yasuo may not be a late-game carry per se, for example, but he spikes extremely hard into the mid game, and doesn't have much trouble getting kills afterwards, despite often being oppressive early. Meanwhile, mana champions that are supposed to get better over time frequently have their power progression gimped: mages especially have been made to peak mostly in the mid game, while also being forced to buy mana, a stat that does not directly increase their combat power. To this day, there is therefore no clear tradeoff for being manaless, and Riot's attempts to pretend that mana is a bonus, rather than a hindrance, have failed miserably each time. Mana does not feel good in any capacity, and the increasingly large amount of mana champions who don't even have to worry about managing their resource suggests Riot implicitly acknowledges this as well.
Takazaki2 votesYasuo's gameplay revolves around stripping him of his defenses and bursting him before he retaliates.
burn his shield before going in burn windwall before using big shit
he is strong when you fight to his advantage
Warlord Rhinark14 votesYasuo's gameplay revolves around stripping him of his defenses and bursting him before he retaliates.
burn his shield before going in burn windwall before using big shit
he is strong when you fight to his advantage
His shield lasts for 1 second so if he sees you're popping it he'll most likely back off.
How are you going to bait his Wind Wall if you aren't using your big shit exactly?
Takazaki2 votesSo you get lane control?
if your spamming weak shit at him you'll chip away, the goal is to keep his shield on CD to FORCE his WW. the second WW is down that is your big window to punish him for not capitalizing on its use.
SEKAI8 votes
So you get lane control?
if your spamming weak shit at him you'll chip away, the goal is to keep his shield on CD to FORCE his WW. the second WW is down that is your big window to punish him for not capitalizing on its use.
You're ignoring the fact Yasuo has approaching infinite in-lane mobility, and can harass back more so than the enemy the vast majority of the time on top of the windwall. And ofc, the Yasuo player can have a brain, and not use the wall unless absolutely necessary; and he can do that anyway, given the broken hitbox coding of the W that's so huge even shooting it in the opposite direction of the spell can still block the said enemy projectile.
In other words, as long as the Yasuo actually has a brain, the only person you'll be baiting in the context of laning, is yourself. There is a reason why Yasuo just bends almost all ranged champ over by default in the lane without any contest. His design is fundamentally the problem.
Takazaki2 votesYou're ignoring the fact Yasuo has approaching infinite in-lane mobility
its a conditional short range, that also has an internal and external cooldown. " infinite"
and can harass back more so than the enemy the vast majority
and get killed for doing so if he rushes in without he defenses which are easily burned and exploitable if you keep track of them
top of the windwall
20s cooldown and yasuo doesnt build any form of CDR until maybe 3rd or 4th item
wanna know what a lot more annoying?
untargetable omni-dash on a shorter CD then WW
Not only am i not dying and reversing your all in and nuking you for it
.5 second fuck off button
not 1 but 2 low cooldown omni-dashes
the list goes on and on, people act like WW is the god card of all basic abilities.
While it is strong, there is a LOT that yasuo pays for to have it, and without it he is wet bread.
Yasuo player can have a brain
so can your enemy. Try playing yasuo into someone who knows what they are doing. its depressing if you dont get any support.
not use the wall unless absolutely necessary
implying there are players who always make perfect decisions? in that case why dont i say you could just perfectly side step yauso Q and make him do 1/2 the damage and never be able to ulti outside of beyblade
There is a reason why Yasuo just bends almost all ranged champ over by default in the lane without any contest
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
no
decent wave clear even without minions and at level 6 he forces yasuo to make a choice.
delay his 6000g core build by another 1.3k or forever get ult'd by this dickhead and be useless.
everything about azir punishes yasuo
grounded, and since yasuo can only dash to a target dashing forward is a free stun ulti to the face and even if you miss it , slow effect dash speeds so you cripple him regardless how you play
go ahead and goto the Yasuo mains sub reddit about this guy. I know a top lane yasuo main who insta dodges if kennen gets picked.
His design is fundamentally the problem
no, the fundamental problem is the community ( low elo's ) want to see him nerfed to the ground like teemo because he directly punishes poor play if he is played properly or even just functionally. his kit is just used as the scapegoat to justify this hatred but then when presented with facts argueing the opposition, the retort always comes back to " oh he can just outplay you " or " he gets x and y for free so i couldnt ever do anything to stop him"
Nyarlathοtep5 votesits a conditional short range, that also has an internal and external cooldown. " infinite"
Conditional short range? Check. Internal cooldown? 0.5 lel. Talking about BIG cooldown. External cooldown? There is no such a thing. I think you confuse it with the on target cooldown. Which exists, but alas, it doesnt matter that much considering there are at least 6 minions where he can dash too.
and get killed for doing so if he rushes in without he defenses which are easily burned and exploitable if you keep track of them
Not really. I have to use a weak spell or aa to proc his passive. However, using a weak spell will end up having one less spell to unload at his face should i engage. On the other hand, should i go for an aa i will put myself to his awesome threat range (the radius where he can damage me). Once he engages me i cant really disengage (with some exceptions ofc) if im a mage.
Tracking them is indeed easy, working around them is not for the majority.
untargetable omni-dash on a shorter CD then WW Not only am i not dying and reversing your all in and nuking you for it .5 second fuck off button not 1 but 2 low cooldown omni-dashes the list goes on and on, people act like WW is the god card of all basic abilities. While it is strong, there is a LOT that yasuo pays for to have it, and without it he is wet bread.
At least fizz's e costs mana and he has to aim. At least ekko's kit is restricted by mana and cds. At least fiora's costs mana and doesnt protect her team (also it last for .75) At least lb has mana costs and falls off hard late game.
All of them give something up for the annoying part in their kit. Yasuo doesnt.
implying there are players who always make perfect decisions? in that case why dont i say you could just perfectly side step yauso Q and make him do 1/2 the damage and never be able to ulti outside of beyblade
Implying it takes one to be perfect to use yasuo's w to its maximum potential (in lane ofc. Outside it actually takes experience to use it to the max). Here let me help HOW easy is to use yasuo's w. Lets same im laning against veigar as yasuo (damn the thought makes me nauseous). I will keep my w to avoid either his r or q. However early on, his ulti unless im below 40% hp, wont deal a significant amount of dmg. This leaves only his q. Im going to use my w ONLY when im trapped within his e and i can maneuver around. Bam. There it goes. He cant do anything to dmg me. I can evade his w even with closed eyes. Sure he can engage again while my w is down. But he wont trap me because of how easy is to avoid getting trapped.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no
Well he did say almost all. Not all, but almost all.
decent wave clear even without minions and at level 6 he forces yasuo to make a choice. delay his 6000g core build by another 1.3k or forever get ult'd by this dickhead and be useless.
His waveclear is tied to his voidlings. If they die, his waveclear dies too. And you are right at lvl 6 yasuo does get that choice. Too bad he wont kill him with his r alone. Hell he doesnt even need qss to kill malz. Hex is more than enough to do the trick. It will help him survive while increasing his ad by a small amount.
everything about azir punishes yasuo
Nope and nope. Azir's soldiers will get blocked by yasuo's w when they dash. His ulti also counts as projectile. And he has enough mobility to reach azir even if he gets knocked back.
grounded, and since yasuo can only dash to a target dashing forward is a free stun ulti to the face and even if you miss it , slow effect dash speeds so you cripple him regardless how you play
Grounded, which is easy to avoid (limited arc fire AND it can be blocked by windwall), slows dont affect yasuo that much considering he relies mostly on his e to move around (despite the fact that his e speed scales with movement speed). Still yasuo buys hex or hell, mr boots and he is set to go to rip her apart with ease.
go ahead and goto the Yasuo mains sub reddit about this guy. I know a top lane yasuo main who insta dodges if kennen gets picked.
I really have no idea about kennen funny enough. So yeah i cant really comment on him.
no, the fundamental problem is the community ( low elo's ) want to see him nerfed to the ground like teemo because he directly punishes poor play if he is played properly or even just functionally.
But do they? Or they just want to enjoy a match? Yasuo by nature is anti fun to play against. He has strong lane phase against most mages and is strong on general against telegraphed based champs. Not only that but he has multiple safety nets. Did you dive underturret? Well here have your ulti put you outside turrets range. Did you ulti someone that you shouldnt have? Here have your passive. Did you react too slow and the enemy projectile needs 100 more range to hit you? Fear not, your w spawns from your model. Did you thrown your w on the wrong angle? Dont worry it can protect you anyway!
Then there is the fact that you cant even itemize against him. He usually goes conq, and he buys infinity. And his ulti ignores 50% of bonus armour. Meaning he is dangerous to everyone. Also he is a champ that you cant kill unless he makes a mistake.
Takazaki1 votesConditional short range? Check. Internal cooldown? 0.5 lel. Talking about BIG cooldown. External cooldown? There is no such a thing. I think you confuse it with the on target cooldown. Which exists, but alas, it doesnt matter that much considering there are at least 6 minions where he can dash too.
that .5 seconds is a cooldown you can feel when you play yasuo, and yes the external cooldown is the target cooldown.
"just because you can dash with yasuo doesn't mean you should" the diamond smurf who crushed my ass in 20xx
comparitively it is a low cooldown ability. but when your whole kit revolves around moving and positioning. that .5 seconds is there. or better yet, play ANY fighter game. you'll understand how .5 seconds can feel.
Not really. I have to use a weak spell or aa to proc his passive. However, using a weak spell will end up having one less spell to unload at his face should i engage. On the other hand, should i go for an aa i will put myself to his awesome threat range (the radius where he can damage me). Once he engages me i cant really disengage (with some exceptions ofc) if im a mage.
you should never use a spell to proc his shield. Mages have decent sized Auto ranges. unless you're wave clearing and trying to harrass at the same time ( like when he is trying to farm ) you shouldn't be throwing spells on him. thats allowing him to get mileage out of his defenses, which again is playing to his advantage.
as for the AA and going into threat range, are you telling me that mages should never have to interact with yasuo in order to be fair? if you should reliably force out his passive ( more so then already ) without any chance of yauso retaliation im pretty sure you have a busted mage who could do that to any melee match up ( althou kennen not busted, his kit just is nightmare for yauso players amd melee's in general ). we are also forgetting the plethora of options that opens up is yasuo like to get aggressive when you harass him.
If, he is fighting you in your minions and you cleared out his, chances are you just straight up win the trade as long as you dont miss halve your kit.
if he like to get aggressive on you, ping in your jungler. Yasuo has like 8 different ways to engage, but piss poor options to disengage.
you could also pick and choose WHERE you auto him. the biggest mistake players make when trying to poke down yasuo's shield is over committing to it. people will step out way to far in a lane trying to " use the counter play" and end up misplaying and not understanding why when technically you were doing what you were suppose to.
Tracking them is indeed easy, working around them is not for the majority.
10 second base cooldown but some yauos's like to put in early points so i always assume
Not only am i not dying and reversing your all in and nuking you for it .5 second fuck off button not 1 but 2 low cooldown omni-dashes
At least fizz's e costs mana and he has to aim.
And yasuo doesnt? try jumping a wall with fiizz, not try jumping the same wall with yasuo.
At least ekko's kit is restricted by mana and cds.
his ability to completely cancel out divers while having decent wave clear to support his roaming demands that, Yasuo's ability to 1v1 demands he be manaless. pointing out that champions have CD's and mana costs out of context as to why they have them isn't a valid argument ( also remember when ekko has to be nerfed serveral times because of his lower mana costs. i member)
At least fiora's costs mana and doesnt protect her team (also it last for .75)
The rest of he kit has extremely low mana costs so again she isn't gates by the mana cost what so ever. She can protect her team from various skillshots? blitz Q thresh Q come to mind. she doesnt have the same capibility as yasuo, but she gets a lot of other things he doesnt have.
At least lb has mana costs and falls off hard late game.
If you run out of mana as LB you're actually playing a different game or didnt base. LB doesnt spam abilities on minion unless she is q farming. in that case you should have already killed your lane oppenate or atleast forced a base. not gated by mana what so ever. She falls off? she has decent AoE damage for an assassin considering that he mid game is probably one of the strongest of assassins. LB has issues picking off Carries maybe, but in terms of being able to contribute she doesnt drop off like a zed can. but thats a whole nother discussion. LB has a midgame and a build a path that are disproportionately better then yasuo because they are made to do 2 different things. you jmight as well be comparing Malphites late game to vaynes.
All of them give something up for the annoying part in their kit. Yasuo doesnt. base stats?
no built in sustain?
the ability to reliable use his ultimate? ( remember its conditional )
extremely long cooldown defensive tools and options?
extremely expensive build path? ( a melee ADC who gets no support and is just as easy to gank )
Yasuo gives up a lot of basic tools in order to get premium ones.
Implying it takes one to be perfect to use yasuo's w to its maximum potential (in lane ofc. Outside it actually takes experience to use it to the max). Here let me help HOW easy is to use yasuo's w. Lets same im laning against veigar as yasuo (damn the thought makes me nauseous).
So lets start with a totally advantageous situation to yasuo to demonstration how its totally the champion and not the player.
I will keep my w to avoid either his r or q. However early on, his ulti unless im below 40% hp, wont deal a significant amount of dmg.
Veigar Q is on a short CD, windwall will be down twice as long with some change
also 175 base damage isn't nothing to scoff at for a level 6 yasuo with the lowest base MR out of any melee champion
This leaves only his q. Im going to use my w ONLY when im trapped within his e and i can maneuver around. Bam. There it goes. He cant do anything to dmg me.
Yes he can, W + Q farming. Vegar has plenty of AoE, its a really shitty lane for him. but using proper wave management and a little jungle support it's not hopeless.
in this lane veigars goal isn't to kill yasuo, its to survive the lane phase for his monstrous scaling ( like nasus in top lane ).
but sure, go ahead and pick an advantageous match up for yasuo, and assume veigar is going to incompletely misplay laning. thats definitely a strong argument on how yasuo is the issue.
I can evade his w even with closed eyes. Sure he can engage again while my w is down. But he wont trap me because of how easy is to avoid getting trapped.
again why is veigar trying to be aggressive at all in this lane? its like asking to die. do you expect nasus to always try and fight darius straight up?
His waveclear is tied to his voidlings. If they die, his waveclear dies too. And you are right at lvl 6 yasuo does get that choice. Too bad he wont kill him with his r alone. Hell he doesnt even need qss to kill malz. Hex is more than enough to do the trick. It will help him survive while increasing his ad by a small amount.
No they are not? you forget about Q? worries about mana costs? oh its not like E gives back mana or anything.
why does everyone also insist apon you have to always be able to beat yauso 1v1? thats not why malzahar fucks him.
you wanna beat yasuo 1v1 ? play kennen, play renekton, play people who are duelists, not mages. no matter how big of a lead yasuo gets. malzahar will force him to buy QSS early or run the risk of being CC to death because people will immediately jump on him if he is immobile. its not all about the 1v1.
Nope and nope. Azir's soldiers will get blocked by yasuo's w when they dash. His ulti also counts as projectile.
azir Q 15s cooldown
WW 20s
azir gets stats from building CDR
thinking maybe just maybe there is still a idk 5 second window to completely run train on yasuo while having the safety of E and R
And he has enough mobility to reach azir even if he gets knocked back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnUyrVMku6c
no he doesnt.
Grounded, which is easy to avoid (limited arc fire AND it can be blocked by windwall), slows dont affect yasuo that much considering he relies mostly on his e to move around (despite the fact that his e speed scales with movement speed). Still yasuo buys hex or hell, mr boots and he is set to go to rip her apart with ease.
slows effect e movement speed? how does that not effect yasuo? its almost a 1/3 of both his defensive and offensive capability.
yasuo wont even reach cassi without dying first, cassi also gets to rush defensive stats against him so if yasuo doesnt get a lead in lane she is going to stat check him if he didnt get hex or if she finished her item first ( also cheaper build bath cuz she can't buy boots)
I really have no idea about kennen funny enough. So yeah i cant really comment on him.
Tis why i said go look it up, people have forgotten what that thing can do.
But do they? Or they just want to enjoy a match? Yasuo by nature is anti fun to play against. He has strong lane phase against most mages and is strong on general against telegraphed based champs. Not only that but he has multiple safety nets. Did you dive under turret? Well here have your ulti put you outside turrets range. Did you ulti someone that you shouldnt have? Here have your passive. Did you react too slow and the enemy projectile needs 100 more range to hit you? Fear not, your w spawns from your model. Did you thrown your w on the wrong angle? Dont worry it can protect you anyway!
same old tired argument support by nothing but opinions and very rare situations
Then there is the fact that you cant even itemize against him. He usually goes conq, and he buys infinity. And his ulti ignores 50% of bonus armour. Meaning he is dangerous to everyone. Also he is a champ that you cant kill unless he makes a mistake.
10% of his damage
that .5 seconds is a cooldown you can feel when you play yasuo, and yes the external cooldown is the target cooldown.
Feel it? Yeah you can. Does it matter the majority of the times? Not really. Most spells have cast time and travel speed/delay. This amounts to AT LEAST .7 sec. More than enough to yasuo cast his e.
play ANY fighter game
THATS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM WITH YASUO (in tldr). We arent single player. Lol is a multiplayer game, where balance must exist in order for the game to feel fair. My blue (or golden) boi xerath pays reliability, squishiness and immobility for what he can do. Yasuo pays what? One high cd ability and a penalty at critical hits that doesnt even help in the first place.
Mages have decent sized Auto ranges
550 is the average. One dash on a minion and yasuo can most likely dash in your face if he wants to. And he will because riot has granted him 345 speed DESPITE having a dash that has .5 cd.
as for the AA and going into threat range, are you telling me that mages should never have to interact with yasuo in order to be fair?
And why should a mage (who is at a clear disadvantage) interact with yasuo? Yasuo out damages most mages. You want mages to interact with yasuo? Make it fair. Remove his x2 crit chance so he can stay behind. Remove his safety nets so mages GAIN something by attempting on killing him.
If, he is fighting you in your minions and you cleared out his, chances are you just straight up win the trade as long as you dont miss halve your kit.
There are a lot of variables to say for sure. At which min is this happening? Whats the champ that is facing yasuo? Are summs up. Are they equal item/level?
if he like to get aggressive on you, ping in your jungler.
Oh ofc. I didnt know i control my jungler's actions. My bad.
And yasuo doesnt
No he doesnt. His dash (and blink) are point and click. Fizz's e (dash part) requires to aim. Yes it does have a small radius but it can miss by walking out of it. Yasuo's e can only miss if the target dashes (or blinks). And if you are implying that yasuo cant wall jump, well sorry to ruin your dream but he can. Although there are few.
his ability to completely cancel out divers while having decent wave clear to support his roaming demands that
Oh so you want to play it like that? Fine. His ability to completely cancel out an infinity number of projectiles while having decent waveclear to support his roaming demands that.
And its not out of context. When someone has mana it means that should the blue thing go 0, that champion cant cast spells that cost mana. As such at one point THEY WILL be forced to go b no matter what (with maybe one or two exceptions).
The rest of he kit has extremely low mana costs so again she isn't gates by the mana cost what so ever. She can protect her team from various skillshots?
True but as i said in my previous argument, should the blue go 0 no spells for fiora. And while she can bodyblock during her parry, it covers a small area unlike yasuo's, she remains snared there, cant take any other action (as far as i know) and has less uptime.
And true, fiora has things that yasuo doesnt. But this goes for yasuo too. He has things that fiora doesnt.
If you run out of mana as LB you're actually playing a different game or didnt base
Or she uses her spells to engage on me but failed to score. Or she uses her spells to farm or counter push the wave.
She falls off? she has decent AoE damage for an assassin considering that he mid game is probably one of the strongest of assassins.
Well according to lolalytics she does fall below 50%. Other sites show she has around 51% or so. And WHAT? LB DECENT AOE DMG FOR AN ASSASSIN? EM TALON, KATARINA HELLO? Her aoe IS GARBAGE. Hell she cant even make use of her so called aoe because she will be killed without it. And in order to EVEN THEN deal aoe dmg she has to use her ulti. I mean talon has to do it too, but at least his ulti deals more dmg and he still has his e to dash around.
no built in sustain?
Em what? How is that relevant? Are you telling me he gives up sustain for his current kit? In which case this applies to more or less everyone. What kind of bullshit argument is this? Wait i just saw you are (probably) a yasuo main. No wonder you defend adamantly this abomination of a cancer and bring in the table such rotten arguments.
the ability to reliable use his ultimate?
Well kid here's how his r works. You can use it IN EVERY displacement. And a very big chunk of the game's roster have at LEAST one displacement. So no, his ulti IS reliable.
extremely long cooldown defensive tools and options?
Only his w has a long cd. His passive doesnt have that much considering it recharges when you dash too.
extremely expensive build path?
3400+2700=6100 to get his core items and starts to snowball. Compared to the average mages, 3200(ludens)+3000(morello)=6200 and it gives half the stats yasuo gets. Oh boi look at this "expensive" shit he gets.
Are you out of your god damn mind? For 6100, he gains dps (100% crit, atk speed, dmg, true dmg), conditional damage reduction (huge one) and movement speed when he is near enemies. While mages for 6200 gain dmg, mana, cd, a bit of hp, gw and magic pen.
Yasuo gives up a lot of basic tools in order to get premium ones.
Hahahaha. Nice one. Thanks for the joke!
So lets start with a totally advantageous situation to yasuo to demonstration how its totally the champion and not the player.
I picked a mage because mages go usually mid, the intended lane for yasuo. There are only two kind of mages yasuo has to face, ones that counter him (annie, liss) and the ones that are at his mercy (aka, he has to misplay hard to die). I cant pick annie now can i? Thats why i went with veigar.
Veigar Q is on a short CD, windwall will be down twice as long with some change
True but can you really hit something that constantly dashes? And the point of my argument was that if he uses w you cant play around it.
also 175 base damage isn't nothing to scoff at for a level 6 yasuo with the lowest base MR out of any melee champion
Its 150. Not 175. Yasuo's lvl 6 mr is 35. As such he takes 25% reduced ap. As such veigar's q at rank 3 would deal 113 damage.
Yes he can, W + Q farming. Vegar has plenty of AoE, its a really shitty lane for him. but using proper wave management and a little jungle support it's not hopeless.
No. Its far better to keep minions to be stacked by q. Also veigar has not that much aoe. It is strong dmg wise but its radius is small and until late it has a big cd. And again, i cant control my jungler's actions.
again why is veigar trying to be aggressive at all in this lane?
Or yasuo just dashed way too close to veigar and he has to e to limit his movements.
No they are not? you forget about Q? worries about mana costs? oh its not like E gives back mana or anything.
His q has been nerfed again and again in exchange for more dmg in his voidlings. His e regains a pitiful amount of mana because it regains 2% of max mana. Which again, in order to waveclear he needs his voidlings.
why does everyone also insist apon you have to always be able to beat yauso 1v1? thats not why malzahar fucks him.
Because YOU CANT RELY ON JUNGLERS. Sorry to burst your bubble but there are other lanes too. Your jungler cant camp your lane if the other lanes need help. No champ should be manageable when you outnumber him.
you wanna beat yasuo 1v1
No i dont. I want to be able to survive lane against an experience yasuo. Yasuo at hands of experience players is a nightmare because unless you outstat him or counter him, you are going to lose no matter what.
azir Q 15s cooldown
And in the meantime, yasuo can freely engage on him and out damage him unless its late game. Azir has even less range than xerath and yasuo can still damage me as xerath.
no he doesnt.
How is that relevant on the yasuo vs azir argument? In the clip (which btw is outdated) we see azir vs xerath. If that xerath was yasuo he could had ww azir's ulti.
slows effect e movement speed? how does that not effect yasuo? its almost a 1/3 of both his defensive and offensive capability.
Because dashing (even under the effects of a slow) will always outrun walking. A 30% slow will affect more someone walking than yasuo when he dashes.
yasuo wont even reach cassi without dying first, cassi also gets to rush defensive stats against him so if yasuo doesnt get a lead in lane she is going to stat check him if he didnt get hex or if she finished her item first ( also cheaper build bath cuz she can't buy boots)
Pure and utter nonsense ( like ever other yasuo defender out there). Cass threat range is very close to yasuo's. Cass also DOESNT RUSH DEFENSIVE STATS. Tear IS NOT a defensive item. And she always buys tear first. And ofc no her whole build costs more than yasuo's just because she buys an item that its not boots. Boots are the cheapest items in the game.
same old tired argument support by nothing but opinions and very rare situations
Same old tired counterarguments. As always dismissing the most important stuff. Living the stereotypical yasuo defender meme i see. Keep doing what you doing i suppose.
10% of his damage
Well, emm, how can i say this. Unless im a beefy, these are useless. Against squishy targets (low hp i mean) he doesnt have to use a lot of aa. A good chunk of his dmg is through his q. And lastly, mages cant swap sorcerers boots for tabi.
Warlord Rhinark10 votes
- So you get lane control?
Your "tip" was supposed to be a tip for "bursting him down before he retaliates".
Him backing off does not help me burst him down.
- if your spamming weak shit at him you'll chip away,
Yeah, and I'll run out of mana since he has a free shield and he can dodge all my weak shit with his E.
the goal is to keep his shield on CD to FORCE his WW. the second WW is down that is your big window to punish him for not capitalizing on its use.
Unless he backs off.
Keep in mind, he can still dodge stuff with his E.
Takazaki1 votesYour "tip" was supposed to be a tip for "bursting him down before he retaliates". Him backing off does not help me burst him down.
denying a a champion who rushes 2 expensive core items whilst finishing your build quicker and stat checking him? my advice still isn't off.
Yeah, and I'll run out of mana since he has a free shield and he can dodge all my weak shit with his E.
If he is dodging everything then that's him outplaying you. If every yasuo perfectly dodged everything, they would not go 0/10.
that free shield is on an almost 20s CD ( same as windwall btw ) and thats assuming you're actively moving which makes him liable to misposition himself.
there are a lot of spammible threats to yasuo's 
your going om because your trying to shoot out rotations at him rather then poke at him when he goes to farm.
in lane you have 3 major goals with yasuo
1)deny farm
maintain wave control
keep his defenses on cooldown
he is very simple in terms of how you beat him. it just the method that people seem to fuck up.
Warlord Rhinark12 votesdenying a a champion who rushes 2 expensive core items whilst finishing your build quicker and stat checking him? my advice still isn't off.
You're right, your advice is still advice, but it's not advice for bursting him down.
If he is dodging everything then that's him outplaying you.
I call bullshit on that.
There's absolutely zero thought put into using his E, he doesn't have to aim, he doesn't have a resource bar to manage, he just needs a minion nearby.
There's a difference between outplaying your opponent and having a get out of jail free card.
If every yasuo perfectly dodged everything, they would not go 0/10.
"If every X perfectly Y'd Z, they not would not go 0/10" can be used for everything.
that free shield is on an almost 20s CD ( same as windwall btw )
No it's not.
There's no cooldown on it.
The only requirement is that he walks around for a bit, which he has plenty of time to do if he backs off.
Keep in mind that using E also charges the shield.
and thats assuming you're actively moving which makes him liable to misposition himself.
I call more bullshit.
You're assuming every Yasuo is a dumb brute that only knows how to go in.
He can actively move around without mispositioning.
there are a lot of spammible threats to yasuo's
Approximately 1/4 of those actually counter him.
your going om because your trying to shoot out rotations at him rather then poke at him when he goes to farm.
I call more bullshit.
Mana costs in the early game are extreme and half of the poke that hits is either blocked by the shield or by the Wind Wall.
in lane you have 3 major goals with yasuo
1)deny farm
maintain wave control
keep his defenses on cooldown
he is very simple in terms of how you beat him. it just the method that people seem to fuck up.
None of this "beats him".
At best, it's going to delay his powerspike by a few minutes.
But he's still going to become a monster in the mid to late game.
The true counterplay to Yasuo is praying that the guy playing him is a doofus.
Takazaki1 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XqIQz2cY,comment-id=000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-16T13:30:41.185+0000)
You're right, your advice is still advice, but it's not advice for bursting him down.
You burst him if he misplays, you zone him if he doesn't. That is advice for bursting him down because its a prerequisite for doing so.
I call bullshit on that.
There's absolutely zero thought put into using his E, he doesn't have to aim, he doesn't have a resource bar to manage, he just needs a minion nearby.
Short range targeted dash that you cannot cancel or act out of without either delaying the animation or animation canceling?
wanna know why yasuo's go 0/10? its this ability right fucking here. Yasuo players constantly misposition themselves for no other reason then, " lul im so cool dashign around you can't hit me" and then they get ganked.
There's a difference between outplaying your opponent and having a get out of jail free card.
your right, dodging a skill shot outplay
a you cannot kill me button, jail free card 
"If every X perfectly Y'd Z, they not would not go 0/10" can be used for everything.
so why does yasuo deserved to be called on it then?
No it's not.
There's no cooldown on it.
The only requirement is that he walks around for a bit, which he has plenty of time to do if he backs off.
LMAO have you played yasuo? i tested it myself because of the flow changes to my main.
the E dash no longer grants bonus flow, so its the same as command moving IIFC, it takes approximately 20s of walking in order to charge enough flow for shield. dont wanna believe me? test it yourself.
I call more bullshit.
You're assuming every Yasuo is a dumb brute that only knows how to go in.
his only other option is to sit back and give lane control over to his oppenate which works against him. Yasuo's kit is build to go in. he can sit back and be a passive farmer ( i've seen those slow type of yasuo players ) but you're liable to let your mid lane take over and roam if you lit yourself be pushed in and not threaten them at all.
not every yasuo player plays aggressive, but when yauso's go in they directly put themselves in danger as they are melee. saying Yasuo's dash will ensure he is never misposition unless by player error is like saying fizz is ungankable unless the fizz fucks up.
Approximately 1/4 of those actually counter him.
yeah its really easy to think of things that are constantly picked against me, those are the things that fuck me over the most when i play yasuo, so i had to learn to deal with them or just insta dodge.
I call more bullshit.
Mana costs in the early game are extreme and half of the poke that hits is either blocked by the shield or by the Wind Wall.
what at like level 2? why the hell are you spamming spells at him that early.
use AA's and wave control to force him into submission
yauso is strong 1-3, has a ok-ish 4-5, a mediocore at best 6 power spike. and then a shitty mid game untill PD IE.
fight him when he is weak. post 3 you should have 2 point in your main ability. AA him, wait for him to farm ( remember 20s on that shield passive ) use main poke tool, force WW, wait for cooldown repeat.
your constantly stripping him of his defense tools, punishing him for not having them, and either harassing him or denying him farm .
None of this "beats him".
At best, it's going to delay his powerspike by a few minutes.
that's literally the biggest counter to yasuo, is making him useless.
your fighting a 4v5 because he isn't a threat till he has items.
his kit is built to fight and go in, so turtle tactics benefit him less then other champions.
Warlord Rhinark2 votesYou burst him if he misplays, you zone him if he doesn't. That is advice for bursting him down because its a prerequisite for doing so.
This is still only counterplay if we're assuming the Yasuo doesn't know what he's doing.
Short range targeted dash that you cannot cancel or act out of without either delaying the animation or animation canceling?
wanna know why yasuo's go 0/10? its this ability right fucking here. Yasuo players constantly misposition themselves for no other reason then, " lul im so cool dashign around you can't hit me" and then they get ganked.
Again, assuming the Yasuo doesn't know what he's doing.
None of this is reliable counterplay unless the Yasuo I'm up against is a moron.
your right, dodging a skill shot
It's not.
Dodging a skillshot with something like an Ekko E can be considered an outplay, it's short range, has a cooldown, and costs mana.
Yasuo's E?
Have a minion nearby.
That's it.
a you cannot kill me button, jail free card
That's a topic for another time.
We're talking about Yasuo here.
so why does yasuo deserved to be called on it then?
I never said he does.
LMAO have you played yasuo? i tested it myself because of the flow changes to my main.
the E dash no longer grants bonus flow, so its the same as command moving IIFC, it takes approximately 20s of walking in order to charge enough flow for shield. dont wanna believe me? test it yourself.
It might take approximately 20 seconds to build up the Flow meter, but that's not the same as having a 20 second cooldown.
his only other option is to sit back and give lane control over to his oppenate which works against him.
Unless he roams.
Yasuo's kit is build to go in. he can sit back and be a passive farmer ( i've seen those slow type of yasuo players ) but you're liable to let your mid lane take over and roam if you lit yourself be pushed in and not threaten them at all.
The enemy mid lane is only going to roam if we're assuming the Yasuo is up against an Assassin.
How often do you see Immobile Mages roaming? They have no mobility and their items are very expensive compared to AD items, meaning they have to stay in lane for a long ass time to farm.
not every yasuo player plays aggressive, but when yauso's go in they directly put themselves in danger as they are melee.
The passive shield and Wind Wall, as well as the E dash back to his side of the lane negates any potential danger he might put himself in.
saying Yasuo's dash will ensure he is never misposition unless by player error is like saying fizz is ungankable unless the fizz fucks up.
I would say that Fizz is ungankable unless he fucks up, yes.
yeah its really easy to think of things that are constantly picked against me, those are the things that fuck me over the most when i play yasuo, so i had to learn to deal with them or just insta dodge.
Just because you don't know how to play against them, doesn't mean they're reliable counters.
what at like level 2? why the hell are you spamming spells at him that early.
Please specify what phase of the game your advice is supposed to be directed at, then.
Because if I'm not supposed to be poking him down in the early game, when am I supposed to poke him down then?
use AA's and wave control to force him into submission
If I AA, I put myself in danger of him dashing through my minions and engaging on me.
If I let the lane push towards me, he roams.
It's a lose-lose situation.
yauso is strong 1-3, has a ok-ish 4-5, a mediocore at best 6 power spike. and then a shitty mid game untill PD IE.
I smell bias.
"Mediocre at best level 6 powerspike"?
"Shitty mid game"?
What?
fight him when he is weak.
And when is this supposed to be?
post 3 you should have 2 point in your main ability.
Which I'm not allowed to spam because this is not when I'm supposed to poke him.
AA him, wait for him to farm ( remember 20s on that shield passive )
It's not a 20 second cooldown and most Yasuo's either starts Doran's Blade or Doran's Shield, meaning he has tons of sustain.
use main poke tool,
Which I'm, again, not allowed to spam, and he can just dodge it with his E and Wind Wall if not.
your constantly stripping him of his defense tools, punishing him for not having them, and either harassing him or denying him farm .
I understand that you're trying to help, I appreciate you trying to help and in theory this does sound like counterplay.
But in practice, assuming the Yasuo knows what he's doing, this doesn't help.
that's literally the biggest counter to yasuo, is making him useless.
your fighting a 4v5 because he isn't a threat till he has items.
his kit is built to fight and go in, so turtle tactics benefit him less then other champions.
He's only useless for like 4 - 5 more minutes than usual.
Are you telling me I only have 4 - 5 minutes in order to end the game before he outscales me anyway?
Takazaki1 votesHe's only useless for like 4 - 5 more minutes than usual. Are you telling me I only have 4 - 5 minutes in order to end the game before he outscales me anyway?
thats a pretty deecent sized exageration but lets take it seriously.
lets say playing every bit of counter play i just listed buys you 5 minutes of yasuo being useless and you pratically playing 4v5
whats things can you do in a 4v5?
Take dragon
force baron fights
push towers
apply map pressure to further choke enemy gold income
having the enemy team essentially down 1 player is a huge advantage and you're under selling it.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesthats a pretty deecent sized exageration but lets take it seriously.
lets say playing every bit of counter play i just listed buys you 5 minutes of yasuo being useless and you pratically playing 4v5
whats things can you do in a 4v5?
Take dragon
force baron fights
push towers
apply map pressure to further choke enemy gold income
having the enemy team essentially down 1 player is a huge advantage and you're under selling it.
5 minutes is still a bit too short to consider this reliable counterplay.
You can't do all of these things in the span of 5 minutes, unless the enemy only has a Nexus left.
Takazaki1 votesyou dont need to do all of them one thing leads to another
forcing baron fights either means you get baron or win the teamfight both of which open more doors. a lead get started with action ( teamfight, objective taken ) maintaining a lead is about what follow immediately after
second i already listed a plethora of counter play for yasuo. you just trying to argue its value.
Warlord Rhinark1 votesyou dont need to do all of them one thing leads to another
forcing baron fights either means you get baron or win the teamfight both of which open more doors. a lead get started with action ( teamfight, objective taken ) maintaining a lead is about what follow immediately after
second i already listed a plethora of counter play for yasuo. you just trying to argue its value.
You've listed a bunch of counter play, for that, I'm grateful.
But I don't think we're going to go anywhere with this.
rayzo1 voteswhy downvote? by WW he obviously meant 
.
all you need to do is bait out his and kill him. free gold and u wont have to worry about ganks
its very important to force out his
Takazaki1 votesi get downvoted because OP asked for counter play
and rather then taking the advice of someone who plays nothing but board rather would rather REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE YASUO BROKE
Andrey03451 votes
- How are you going to bait his Wind Wall if you aren't using your big shit exactly?
That kind of stuff is fast. They usually burn it instantly hoping to get it wasted. Not defending Yasuo but it's hard to actually react to something in a teamfight.
Lauchmelder8 votesYasuo's gameplay revolves around stripping him of his defenses and bursting him before he retaliates.
burn his shield before going in burn windwall before using big shit
he is strong when you fight to his advantage
Can we finally stop acting like every Yasuo is an idiot that gets countered by this?
Those steps can create an opening, they do not create an opening for sure and aren't reliable counterplay.
Takazaki1 votesso the ability to strip a champion of their major defensive tools isn't reliable counterplay?
then whats counter play?
deadlychuck2 votesAlso, why do some champions still have resources when they don't actually use enough for it to matter? Like
º Kindred º2 votesi mean 
needs resources, yet is still beyond broken and '' OMEGALUL ut PLayS yoU''
Sire Hippington2 votesStrong late? Asides yasuo and maybe kata and tryn, they all fall off late
Power Cosmic1 votesA very good question that Riot should discuss among themselves along with champs' power budgets.
Elite4Runner1 votesYou might notice that most resource less champions are lacking some other utility within their kit that champions in their similar classification most often have.
Take Yasuo for example. He is a Skirmisher. According to the LolWiki page for Skirmishers, he is classified as such with, Fiora, Jax, Kayn, Master Yi, Riven, and Tryndamere.
Yasuo lacks two things that stand out in this list, Health sustain, and on demand damage mitigation.
Fiora, Kayn, Master Yi, and Tryndamere all some form of healing built into their kits.
Fiora, Jax, Riven, and Tryndamere all have SELF TARGETING damage mitigation.
You might argue that Yasuo's passive mitigates damage. That is true, but it is not something that he can hold onto until it is to his advantage to use it. If his enemy sees that his flow shield is up, all they need to do is damage him once and it is gone after 1 seconds, until he charges it up again.
Then there is his Windwall. You will notice that I emphasized "self targeting". Yes, Windwall can be used to mitigate damage. It can completely block any projectiles aside from tower and fountain shots, but it is something that is completely reliant on positioning.
There is no argument for Yasuo's lack of healing. It is not uncommon for Yasuo's build to include some form of lifesteal for this reason. Without it, he absolutely can be poked down to a point where he can be forced out of lane, regardless of his lack of mana.
aezens1 votesIn my opinion it´s kinda obvious what´s going on:
people complaing lcs midlane is boring to watch because everyone just focus on waveclear Riots solution: -> increase damage output across the board to encurage agreesive playstyle -> nerf mana sustain in lane -> buffs the shit out of ad midlaner (like mr buffs for talon/yasuo)
An Enemy Sutando1 votesOther than Yasuo, please tell me which other resourceless champions have strong late.
SwiftKitten881 votesi hate to roleplay caption obvious here .... but maybe its because they dont need to manage any resource? and early game is the point of the game where no one has any mana regen?
just saying...
