@Riot, why is the class "assassin" focussed solely on burst - not on DoTs?

Kowe The Ewok··3 votes·901 views

Currently the concept of each assassin is go-in, 100-0 and enemy, go out.

Instead, a healthier concept could have been go -in, apply a DoT, go out, let the DoT deal severe damage.

The current concept offers close to no counterplay if an assassin breaks a certain point.

The main advantage of the 2nd concept would be readability, as somebody suggested a while back, DoT damage could simply be disabled by colouring the health bar for the damage to be received.

Talon 's kit feels like an unfinished version of a DoT assassin. Go in, apply bleeding, use your ultimate for a slight amount of extra damage and get out while being invisible.

  • However, the distribution of damage in his kit made him yet another burst caster.

What is the advantage of DoT, over burst assassins? First and foremost - a much better option of balancing and adding counterplay, shield heals, posts, zhonya's etc. At the current state assassins who get rollin' tend to each a state where they blow you up in a splitt second.

(Well, bugs are also to blame. Meele ranged abilities often still apply damage AFTER the target Flashed out of range. E.g. this breaks Akali Q a little and also with AA Zed item 3153 (also leveraged by his ultimate) )

So I was wondering - would you like too DoT assassins in the game? (Maybe shifting former assassins to this?) (Could Talon be a good candidate for a DoT assassin rework?)

23 Comments

SmokinSickStyle3 votes

Because they would kill NOTHING.

Heck how many times did Talon's Q finish an ADC, granted it's not strong but DoTs are not made for an assassin because of the insane amount of heals\shields whateverthefuck supports do to protect their team.

Also, heals would be too good, unless you apply a special heal reduction, it's meant to assassinate so no heals allowed.

Imho Talon's E should prevent the usage of items, this way he doesn't get screwed lategame by Zhonya as much as Zed, Kha, Rengar or pretty much any melee AD, but still allows the usage of spells and summoners.

This change could be a good candidate as silence replacement.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

Talon's DoT is not strong. A reblancing would be necessary.

The question is wether such a rebalancing would lead to healthier gameplay or not.

I believe yes, since DoT's in general have more counterplay options (even if their damage is higher than burst)

AccountaBilabudy2 votes

i like the idea. could definatley work

BakedLotion1 votes

Malzahar :D

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

Malzahar is a DPS mage with a burst spike upon using his ultimate. He does have similiarities with assassin's, but he doesn't fit in the category. (E.g. Voidlings, E DoT, long W duration are indicator of DPS)

7ha7guy7771 votes

his secondary is assassin... then again, what other secondary would work?

X8ViEhkPS01 votes

Do you mean more of a sustained damage assassin?

Instead of literally mining Damage over Time like a Swain ult.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

DoT, definition: Debuff applied to an enemy. The enemy receives continious damage by the debuff. Once applied the user does not have to stay near his target. (Swain E)

DPS, definition: The user applies constant damage to a target by launching regular auto attacks or abilities against the target, staying in his range for his own abilities to hit. (Eve Q, Swain R)

(DoTs are usually safer, but DPS leads to higher damage during the same timeframe)

Swain is a bad example since he has both.

A DPS assassin doesn't exist, it would basically be a meele carry, duealist or fighter.

A DoT assassin would be: Jump in, apply several DoTs, get out. Picture a Talon who maxes Q, E's on his target and disengages.

(Picture balancing a little bit more focussed around that. E.g. significantly higher DoT damage on Q, still a silence of E, but as a compensation lower burst damage on W and R)

X8ViEhkPS01 votes

Well wouldn't this kind of ruin the whole point of an assassin anyway? If you couldn't immediately take out your target or force them out of the fight, what is the point of taking that assassin?

"Hey guys I'm dying." "No problem bro we got your back." x champion shields you, y support heals you.

You flank around, and get a wicked combo out. But then have to wait for a payoff that isn't guaranteed.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

High single target damage, APPLIED in a short period of time (the duration within which the damage is received can differ. E.g. delay on zed ultimate) - and the ability to get out relative safely.

X8ViEhkPS01 votes

Then what is the point? That is basically Zed if he decides to leave you when his ult marker pops. The counter play would honestly be the same if the DoT was in a short duration.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

Shields, healing and heal pots as well as health regeneration have the ability to significantly lower the impact of DoTs.

A burst however has close to now counterplay. E.g. a Fizz Q+Lichbane'ing at you. While his W-DoT can be shielded / lowered by using a pot.

Mãge1 votes

That's basically the assassin's job. There are so many tools with which you can counter an assassin's burst. Changing it to DPS would simply make the asssasin role more of a cooldown-reliant melee DPS carry. You'd still die if the "assassIn" were fed enough (Fiora, Master Yi, Tryndamere).

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

Nobody asked to change it to DPS.

DoT, definition: Debuff applied to an enemy. The enemy receives continious damage by the debuff. Once applied the user does not have to stay near his target. (Swain E, Malzahar E)

DPS, definition: The user applies constant damage to a target by launching regular auto attacks or abilities against the target, staying in his range for his own abilities to hit. (Eve Q, Swain R)

BakedLotion1 votes

the whole point of an assassin is to kill someone quick and get out/die, not go in and make them bleed to death after like 5 seconds...

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

That's your definition. The initial design of Talon's and Fizz's kit with strong DoTs lead me to another conclusion.

(However - the itemozation changes over the seasons mad eboth much better at burstign than DoT'ing)

I think there are different types of assassins. E.g. the Akali type - which is basically what're your whole definition of assassin.

I however consider the original design of Fizz and Talon also to be assassin'ish (regardless of wether their role got shaped into being burst assassins as well)

BakedLotion1 votes

Both Talon and Fizz do not rely on their DoT to do damage. It's just tacked on there for no exact reason. Notice how both of them give flat damage on-hit. Fizz only activates his w for the active damage, and q+lichbane. (which will 1-shot a squishy with or without the DoT) same with talon. He just uses it for the bonus damage. The DoT barely gets to tick

Kowe The Ewok2 votes

Please, consider what time these champiosn where created at. (Talon)

100 AD on item 3072 . item 3035 was applied BEFORE flat penetration.

E.g. = his abilitiy to burst a target was much worse, but the DoT on his W was a LOT stronger in comparison due to high scaling for a basic ability.

As I already mentioned twice: Talon's and Fizz' playstyle changed according to patches an item changes. Their kit was originally much less bursty but more reliant on their DoTs.

Phife1 votes

Because Riot, isn't retarded like you.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

11 y.o. tough kid detected. Shouldn't you be in bed right now?

TheRatsInTheWall1 votes

I would enjoy playing Talon with the type of changes you describe, but changing assassins as a class into DOT killers would really suck. Placing a full burst combo on an enemy champion and then walking out action-hero-style while they explode could be very satisfying.

Biooutbreak1 votes

you're completely missing the point. it's not a question of being 100-0 from DoTs or burst, it's the fact that it is 100-0. (unless the dots damage were like over 10 seconds, which would make them feel incredibly terrible) iirc, Riot wants to push assassins into 50-0ing high priority damaged targets. unfortunately, i can't see that happening without something like the fighters project going on for assassins.

Epilogue of Life1 votes

Because the game is teeming with heals and shields.

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