Nerf the hell out of auto attacks.

Niyumi·Jan 6, 2016·8 votes·880 views

I don't care how you do it, but there is ZERO REASON that the EASIEST form of damage in the game should be, BY FAR, the strongest.

Make auto attacks scale off half your AD, instead of all of it. Forcing people to build far more AD if they want to actually hit hard with their automatically aimed, unmissable attacks.
Make auto attacks scale off their own individual stat -- this way, champs can't just click on you, roll their face on their keyboard, and win through "balance" -- Xin, Yas, Yi, etc.

As it is though, this game is anything but "fair" or "balanced" -- not even a little bit. The most braindead, simplistic champions in the game (ADCs, Xin, Yi, Yasuo, Trynd, Riven, and any other AD champ that spams targeted abilities / AA) are the strongest, hands down, and the only counterplay is to hope that they're a moron.

Please Riot, explain your balancing to me. Do you even have a balance team? Do they play the game? 'cause honestly, I really don't think you even try to balance your game according to any kind of rational thought. Just knee-jerk changes based on winrate.

28 Comments

CreationFlawJan 6, 20168 votes

http://imgur.com/WnlQNeS

Surfer AsheJan 6, 20162 votes

Great thread but you forgot some "key" (wink) words.

Low couterplay Ball of stats - Do i have enough amor or not is the only interaction Lack of clarity - Some autos slow me, some autos burn me, some auto haste the auto attacker, wtf Rito?? Anti-fun and undodgeable Low cooldown Bullshit

SithesisLordJan 6, 20162 votes

So nerf an ADCs only form of reliable attack.

And Kayle's only reliable way to applying passive stacks.

And Irelia's only means of winning trades.

You know, champions shouldn´t be covered in skill shots. Nor be 3-hit wonders. Diversity and all that.

Make auto attacks scale off their own individual stat

That would involve new items to increase AA power and on-hit items would have to be reworked/retuned.

there is ZERO REASON that the EASIEST form of damage in the game should be, BY FAR, the strongest.

Didn´t know Lee Sin's ult was an AA empower. How odd.

Make auto attacks scale off half your AD, instead of all of it. Forcing people to build far more AD if they want to actually hit hard with their automatically aimed, unmissable attacks.

Teemo Q

Suddenly not so unmissable anymore, are they?

AA reliant champions NEED more AD or AP to make their AA's more powerful.

And they are not automatically aimed. To an extent, they are manually aimed.

As it is though, this game is anything but "fair" or "balanced" -- not even a little bit. The most braindead, simplistic champions in the game (ADCs, Xin, Yi, Yasuo, Trynd, Riven, and any other AD champ that spams targeted abilities / AA) are the strongest, hands down, and the only counterplay is to hope that they're a moron.

ADCs all have some sort of skillshot.

Jinx W, E, R. Caitlyn Q, W, E. etc.

As for the others mentioned:

XinZhao Easily dealt with. MasterYi Needs to time E activation to maximize damage and Q to engage/escape. Yasuo E is his only targeted ability and his ult requires special conditions to be usable. Tryndamere Q is a heal; W only works on nearby enemy champions, therefore not targeted; E is to some extent a dash. Riven Q is a double dash with a hop. Triple dash if you will. W is an area stun that affects minions, therefore not targeted. E is a dash+shield. R is an AD boost/empower.

Also, stop this lame bashing on easy to play champions. Like with any game, League has difficulty levels both ELO-wise and champion-wise. Not always the one who finished all Halos on Legendary is going to be better than the one who finished them all on Normal or Heroic, for instance.

Easy champions exist to make people get used to the game and basic mechanics. Now they may choose to pick harder champions or they may not. Either way it is their choice and there´s nothing wrong with that. They may not find Yasuo or Lee Sin champions that fit their playstyle like it is with me. Or they might not like the champions themselves for some reason. It´s totally fine. And that kind of choice IS NOT something to be bashed around as a 'sin' or something indicative that they´re bad. Countless times have i seen people calling Kayle and Irelia mains bad simply because they play those champs.

Shakarez and Irelia Carries U do indeed exist, you know? Are they bad? Well, they certainly joke so in their videos, but clearly they´re not.

League rewards the player, no matter which champion they play, or how bad they can mess up in match. Because even in defeat you get IP and get champ mastery and all the cool stuff.

TL;DR AAs are fine. Easy champions are fine. The mains of said champions are also fine.

Downvote and move on.

NiyumiJan 6, 20161 votes

Even mathematically, AA spam and targeted abilities vastly outperform skillshots and complex kits. How can you justify that, hm? I didn't really see anything but you pushing your opinions onto other people, when, in reality, effort/reward is not a thing in this game, and even the "pros" know it.

Do tell me though, how is it fair for someone who does nothing but right-click and AFK to do dramatically more damage than someone who has to aim all kinds of skillshots and keep track of all kinds of things?

Back in the day, if you took the easy route, you lost some of the benefit and reward. Now though, the easy route is the most rewarded, and you're punished for playing a harder champ. Thanks, society.

SithesisLordJan 7, 20161 votes

If you play near perfectly, you will be rewarded. Be the champion easy or hard.

I don´t see how it´s unfair for ADCs to do big amounts of damage by AAing people.

They are essentially AA machines.

As for your question, i counter with a different question.

Several, actually.

How is it fair to be rewarded for missing skillshots? LeeSin How is it fair to be able to block ADCs and ranged champions overall with a no cost, no consequence, not ult ability? Yasuo How is it fair to have essentially, a Zhonya's every 8 seconds? Fizz How is it fair to have AD scalling true damage? Fiora How is it fair to be able to completely remove a champion's weakness with certain items and continuously do more damage than an fed ADC? TahmKench

My point stands. AAs do not need nerfs whatsoever. And not every AA scales with AD. Some scale with AP. It would be a whole new level of balance nightmare to add another stat into the game just to handle AA scalling.

I´ll give an example. Call it 'AAD'. AA Damage. Unoriginal. I know.

Now all champions scale with that specific stat just for their AAs. ALL of them. I can already see problems with that.

1 - What would that stat be? Magic damage? Physical damage? True damage? What would it be? How would you mitigate it considering not all champions have physical/magical damage dealing AAs?

2 - How would critical damage and on-hit passives work around that? For instance, how would Irelia's W work? How would Ekko's/Diana's 3rd passive proc work?

3 - Can you itemize for that stat/against that stat? See question 1.

Just three questions, all easily answered as to why a different stat for AAs is more problematic than problem solving. Especially since there is no problem with current AAs at all.

If AAs were to be nerfed, then AA empowering abilities would have to be buffed. I don´t think anyone wants to see a 170 AD Irelia with W active doing 50 AA damage along with 200+ true damage.

Nor would they want to see a Jax dealing nearly 500 magic damage from a single W.

There's just too many things that justify keeping AAs like they are than there are to justify nerfing/changing their scalling/adding a stat just for them.

NiyumiJan 7, 20161 votes

If you play perfectly on someone like Ori, and an ADC plays perfectly, who would win? Not Ori. She has skillshots that you can dodge. What about Azir vs. an ADC? Well, the ADC still wins, 'cause you can avoid Azir's soldier autos. I don't see how it's fair for an ADC to click on someone at long range and automatically do more damage than every skillshot in the game every .5-.8s, and be literally incapable of missing.

Lee is not balanced by any means, and his kit is absolute bullshit. So, yeah, it's not fair to miss skillshots.

Yasuo's wall is a one-time use, and once it's gone, it's gone. He has to know when to use it properly, and what must absolutely be blocked, or die. He has to, you know, think a little bit. Something ADC players don't do or even know about.

Well, his E is stupid, but once he uses it, he's vulnerable and can't move very much. So you bait it out, and then kill him. Counterplay, you know? That thing that exists for everyone but ADCs and clickers?

Considering that the true damage requires you to outmaneuver an opponent to apply it, and can easily get you killed, I'd say it's fair. High risk, high reward.

How to beat Tahm: Kite him, and dodge his Q. If all else fails, spam CC -- apparently that's the counter to every kind of bullshit champ.

1: Just like it is now, it'd be physical damage. Every champion's auto attack does physical damage already -- some just have extra magic damage tagged onto it (actually registers as a separate value).

2: On-hits would work just the same as they do now. For Ekko's E, it applies both your auto attack and the damage from the E. So, say you have 0 AAD, and Ekko has a base AAD of 40. His E would do 40 + 250 (AP damage) damage, with the 40 being physical, and the 250 magical -- just like it is now. I don't know what Irelia's W does, as I don't play her.

Crits, instead of scaling off AD, would be AAD. So, you have 30 AAD and a base AAD of 40. 70*2 = 140 for a crit.

3: See, that's the thing. AAD and AD would be separate stats. So you can focus your build on auto attacks, but your abilities would hit very low, or you could focus on AD, making your abilities super strong, but you'd have weak AAs -- or you could build a balance and do decent damage with both (but neither would be at their highest potential damage). Makes AD itemization not so braindead, and makes ADCs / clickers have a weakness -- if they're all AAD, then you can kite them, blind them, or whatever, and you'd win. If they're all AD, you'd have to dodge skillshots and abilities and all that, and they can't just auto you down while you do that. If they're a mix, then they won't just instantly kill you, and you have time to try and outplay them. It introduces counterplay to AD champs, which they really lack right now.

Abilities scale off AD (for an AD champ), while AAs scale off AAD. So you have to choose your playstyle, and it introduces a weakness to AD champs, which they don't have

Nerfing auto attacks would make this game so much more enjoyable -- but I really don't believe any F2P company would ever appease the gamers from 20 years ago that appreciate a challenge and dynamic (rather than static) playstyles.

SithesisLordJan 7, 20161 votes

Skillshots that can miss. But here's the kicker. If on equal levels of gold and build, Ori and Azir win. Because their damage is burst. Huge amounts on short time.

ADCs are DPS.

Be it a MOBA or a MMO, burst and DPS classes are completely different, and while in the long run, DPS wins. In short fights, bursty onesalways get the upper hand. A 300AD Jinx can´t do as much damage on AAs alone as a 500AP Orianna using her QWR combo can.

ADCs and AA reliant champions need to think just as much as a Yasuo. Do i trade or do i not trade? Can i kite or not? DO i kite or not?

ADCs do have counters. As do clickers. champion.gg and youtube are things that exist y'know?

Not every champion's AA deals physical damage. Seen it already. Several champions, mostly mages have pink damage indicators for AAs. Pink damage indicators are magic damage.

In essence, you want to turn every champion into hybrids? The 'Best of both worlds' thing isn´t always the way to go.

AD and "AAD" being separate stats is truly ridiculous. Not every champion is a caster. They need AAs because that´s their main source of damage.

AD champions do have a weakness. As do all champions. The lines between strengths and weaknesses may be blurred but all champions have it.

It´s a MOBA, or A-RTS if you prefer. The challenges and dynamics are there. Outfarm, outthink, outplan your enemies.

NiyumiJan 7, 20161 votes

Actually, I did the math a while ago for Syndra (you know, super bursty) and just any ADC at mid-game. Let me go find that post really quick.

Okay, let's do a 10 second recording at mid-game.

ADC:

1.6 AS, 250 (half-build AD) AD, 20% crit.

So, in 10 seconds, we get: 6.25 (10/1.6) * 250 = 1,562 damage. Now if we assume 20% of those crit (dealing double damage) , we get 625 (crit AA) + 1250 (normal AA) = 1875 damage.

That's 1,562 damage over 10 seconds with no crits, but 1875 damage over 10 seconds assuming a 20% crit rate.

Syndra:

Now, let's look at Syndra, someone who's very bursty, and is 75% skillshots.

This is assuming about 10% CDR and 250 AP.

Q: ~320 damage.

W: ~200 damage.

E: ~120 damage.

R: ~500-800 damage, depending on how many balls you drop.

So, the basic Q>W>E>R 4-ball ult rotation, which takes about 5 seconds.

~320 + 200 + 120 + ~650 = ~1290. So, in 5 seconds, Syndra wins in damage, since an ADC would only do ~940 at this point max.

Now, how about a 5 ball ult, which requires a bit more effort on Syndra's part?

Q: ~320 damage (x2)

W: ~200 damage

E: ~120 damage

R: ~750-800 damage.

640 + 200 + 120 + 750 = 1,710 damage. This combo takes about 8-9 seconds to land (since you have to wait for your Q CD to come up, and then your ult takes time to deal its damage.

So, Syndra (who has to aim everything she does, and has to manipulate her balls to make her ult do any kind of respectable damage) can do ~1700-1800 damage in 10 seconds, assuming she lands every skillshot and doesn't mess up her ult (which is kind of likely).

Meanwhile, an ADC (who can't miss, doesn't aim, and can just click and AFK) does between ~1600 and ~1900 damage depending on their crit rate.

Let me repeat that: Syndra's potential damage in 10 seconds: ~1700. ADC's potential damage in 10 seconds: ~1600-1900 depending on crit rate. -- and this isn't even including the damage an ADC gets from abilities; this is JUST AA SPAM.

So, yeah, even mathematically, an ADC is VASTLY superior in any fight over 6 seconds (which is, you know, most of them). A late-game ADC with nearly 100% crit, 300-350 AD and nearly 1.8 AS though? Let's do the math there!

In 10 seconds, a late game ADC would do nearly 3700 damage, assuming an 80% crit rate, 1.8 AS and 350 AD (which is VERY likely). And that's not even counting things like Rapid Firecannon, Statik, masteries, or any of that.

Now if we want to look at broken, I could do a figure for Yi, with bork, his double strike, Devourer and all that. Just to show how broken he is.

So there's my little math session I did for another post of mine a while ago. So, yeah, if a fight lasts less than 5 seconds, a mage MADE FOR BURST could potentially beat an ADC -- but Ori has like half the damage Syndra does, so the ADC would just hand her ass to her. And Azir isn't burst anyway, he's a sustained damage / poke mage.

As for counterplay, do enlighten me, how do I counterplay an attack that cannot be dodged or prevented in any way?

And, no, every champion's auto attack does physical damage. Some champs, like Ori, Tahm and so on, have extra magic damage (purple, by the way, not pink) added onto it. The actual auto attack is still physical.

Yeah, so those AA-centric champions would have to build for AA damage. Jinx can't go snipe people at half health with her rocket and do 800 damage unless she builds for AD. Likewise, Trist can't E>AA>W>AA>R and instantly kill you unless she builds for AD. All AD and AAD would do as separate stats is force AD champs to choose how they want to play, and build for it. They wouldn't be good at everything anymore, and they'd have a real weakness depending on how they're building. As it is, tanks and bruisers build one or two AD items and the rest full tank, and then go and demolish entire teams. This system would prevent that, and make them a little more bearable.

What weakness does an ADC have? If you tell me they're squishy and easy to kill, I'm going to call BS, since I had a 6-man ult (5 people plus ghost) on Illaoi and used my W on an Ashe four times (and EVERY TENTACLE hit her), but she healed herself through it with nothing but a BT (I had 350 AD, so it was literally thousands of damage per W) -- she lived with like 30% health and then went on to kill another person before dying.

SithesisLordJan 7, 20161 votes

In essence, turn something simple into something that is for the lack of a better definition, a literal clusterfuck just for the sake of making already fun things even more fun.

It´s a balance nightmare. Itemizing just to give better AAs. The way it is currently is too good to change. ADCs are good for one thing alone. Basic attacks. Even the casters do more damage through AAs than through abilities.

I would also point out that in comparison, of course Syndra would do less damage. If 250 AD is a half build for an ADC then 375-450 AP is a half build for a mage. Morello's, Rabadon's and Luden's. You were assuming that 250 AP = 250 AD and therefore 250 AP = half build mage while it is not how it works.

As for counterplay, do enlighten me, how do I counterplay an attack that cannot be dodged or prevented in any way?

The same way you would if you got hit by a skillshot. Suck it up and keep playing.

If there can exist skillshots that pass through minions, then targeted abilities are just as healthy as those.

As for the Ashe situation, Illaoi does physical damage, that´s mitigated by armor. All champions have armor per level. Not all of them have MR per level.

But yes ADCs are squishy and easy to kill.

Ahri Annie Cassiopeia Chogath Darius Diana Ekko Elise Fiora Fizz Gangplank Irelia Jax Jayce Katarina Kayle Kennen Khazix Leblanc LeeSin Lissandra MasterYi Mordekaiser Nidalee Nunu Olaf Orianna Pantheon Rammus RekSai Renekton Rengar Riven Ryze Shaco Shyvana Swain Syndra TahmKench Talon Trundle Tryndamere TwistedFate Udyr Velkoz Veigar Viktor Vladimir Warwick MonkeyKing Xerath XinZhao Yasuo Zed Zyra Ziggs

The Sword SaintJan 6, 20161 votes

http://i.imgur.com/Qz6t3L7.png

SiytherJan 6, 20161 votes

so what ur saying is that u would like only mages and assassins in the game. No adc which real source of dmage is auto attacking. You would like no jungle either i suppose to help u when u lose lane.THis game just could not function with this idea. im not really knocking it and it would be fine if they were to use something like this in a sequel to LOL.As League is now ur suggestion (rant) if implemented would all out break the game

NiyumiJan 6, 20161 votes

No, I want a game where your effectiveness is determined by how well you play the game -- not how high your stats are. Unfortunately, making bratty fucking kids put in effort in order to win is not lucrative in today's society that teaches us how horrible effort and thought are. So, we have shitty ass companies that pander to the kids who honestly need the snot beaten out of them, and the result is a game like this -- where the easiest, most pathetic champs are, by far, the strongest, and out-burst any mage or assassin simply by right-clicking on someone.

Now, if people weren't rewarded for playing an easy champ, meaning they do less damage than someone with all skillshots, then it'd be fine. I don't care. But there is ABSOLUTELY no reason for targeted abilities and AA spam to be, by far, the strongest sources of damage in the game. People go on so much about skill, but it really doesn't exist. Even at Worlds, where the "best" people in the world play, what did you see? Hm, a bunch of clickers and CC spam -- oh and Azir in one game.

So, yeah. Balance is not on Riot's agenda by any means. But honestly, what more could I expect from a fucking F2P cash grab?

CoolHandJackJan 7, 20161 votes

You are delusional, and should seek help.

CatastropJan 6, 20161 votes

Mages or any assassin that uses mana won't exist either. They won't be able to last at all, and have to spam spells to cs.

VerxintJan 6, 20161 votes

Sounds like someone got outplayed by stuttersteps.

insaiyanbaccaJan 6, 20161 votes

agreed, autoattacks have almost no counterplay and they are consistent reliable damage. haven't champions gotten nerfed over having consistent reliable un-dodgeable damage?

CatastropJan 6, 20161 votes

Boy, will mages have a wonderful time last hitting now.

NiyumiJan 6, 20161 votes

You have abilities, and last-hitting isn't hard anyway. Just auto when they run low on health, and bam.

CatastropJan 6, 20161 votes

So does mana also not exist in this world? Also, you want autos to scale off half ad, you want us to last hit with minion attack damage is what you're saying then?

NiyumiJan 6, 20161 votes

Well, if you're smart, you can harass and farm at the same time. Very hard concept to understand, I know. And last-hitting with 35-40 damage isn't impossible, not even hard, really. So...

CatastropJan 6, 20161 votes

Easy to say when there is no champion with base auto's that miserable to test out.

NiyumiJan 6, 20161 votes

Eve, Fiddle and Karthus, to name a few.

AkeneroJan 6, 20163 votes

Okay, so what you're proposing is this.

Orianna, the lowest base ad in the game at 40 ad, now deals a MEASLY 20 damage(plus half her passive damage) per auto to minions only, to champions, there is this shit called armor, which reduces damage, would give her about 10 fucking damage to champions(in game ive done under 35 counting passive to champions) And this "use spells" bullshit wont fly with her q costing 6% of her mana pool, and she needs 40 seconds before she can get her mana back.

Go back to smite, your complaining is not welcome

NiyumiJan 6, 20161 votes

Obviously some tweaking of champions would have to be done. This game is set up right now to promote AA spam everywhere.

AkeneroJan 6, 20161 votes

you do understand i was insulting you, right? Nobody would like this idea, and vayne, draven, hecarim, and adc thresh would become incredibly stupid. This is a game-killing idea, LOOK AT THE DOWN VOTES AND THIS IS A NEW THREAD

NiyumiJan 6, 20161 votes

Game-breaking? No. What it would do is take away the free wins everyone loves so much, and MAKE YOU WORK FOR YOUR WIN, instead of just clicking and instantly killing everything around you.

Can't have that though, especially not in an F2P game.

AkeneroJan 7, 20161 votes

i'm done with this salt. Enjoy your impossible fantasy!