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So can we give Sona attention now that she's undeniably garbage?

Ahristocats··22 votes·2,390 views

bard alistar leona thresh janna nami and almost every supports have between 50 and 53% win rate, except karma (but who has a VERY high pick rate while sona's pick rate was never that low)

there is no more "shut up her win rate blablabla" that stands in the way, Riot needs to rework her and accept that they can't make her viable while keeping that kit, why? because there's no way you balance her across all tiers

https://i.gyazo.com/bf3b5376ca90d04e55d950dc1c815b21.png

back when Sona had 59% win rate after her failed mini rework, she got destroyed in LCS

Sona's kit cannot work against competent players unless you bust her numbers

https://i.gyazo.com/94fdd3c4eabc825438c87b3e634acbce.png

even during the ardent fiasco i never lost to her, it's just so simple to abuse a 325 base ms no self protection support that also happens to be shit in early game, after you learn her weaknesses you cannot lose anymore. and you can't reduce those weaknesses, because that's how sona works, that's how RIOT FEARLESS found the "solution" to balance a no counterplay champion, you literally ruin everything you touch my lord.

So i hope that now she's unplayable (especially in high diamond) people will finally turn their attention to her, and make riot unable to ignore her anymore

people want her to be invoker from dota, that's a terrible idea. Invoker can decide which spell to cast, if Sona's passive becomes Invoke she won't be able to decide which passive to have anymore in lane

If there is anything we can take from dota to make Sona better, it's Oracle give her the ability to remove CC on allies, to switch between damage and healing on both allies and enemies

or just give her a unique kit, in the end all we want is a balanced version of Sona

40 Comments

Miku Hime sama8 votes

Rather harsh, but everything you've said here is true.

What you fail to realize though: Rito doesn't have to admit they're wrong. They don't have to give in to player feedback. They don't have to care about lost revenue.

Rito has made it very clear that they're willing to risk sending the game under, for their own personal desires. They don't care about customer feedback. They don't care about employees' attitude towards the game or the customers. They aren't willing to listen to customer complaints. They don't care that every disrespected customer has 6,000 Twitter followers who WILL know about it. They don't care that customers would rather give their money to Blizzard.

Five of the greatest businessmen in modern history, ranging Jeff Bezos to Bill Gates have all said that this is NOT how a company should be ran, but what do they know? They're only literally the wealthiest individuals in the entire world.

DNFVixen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XjtELqhA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-30T09:39:06.634+0000)

Rather harsh, but everything you've said here is true.

What you fail to realize though: Rito doesn't have to admit they're wrong. They don't have to give in to player feedback. They don't have to care about lost revenue.

Rito has made it very clear that they're willing to risk sending the game under, for their own personal desires. They don't care about customer feedback. They don't care about employees' attitude towards the game or the customers. They aren't willing to listen to customer complaints. They don't care that every disrespected customer has 6,000 Twitter followers who WILL know about it. They don't care that customers would rather give their money to Blizzard.

Five of the greatest businessmen in modern history, ranging Jeff Bezos to Bill Gates have all said that this is NOT how a company should be ran, but what do they know? They're only literally the wealthiest individuals in the entire world.

This right here is more true then anything in the world.

Sasogwa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XjtELqhA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-30T09:39:06.634+0000)

Rather harsh, but everything you've said here is true.

What you fail to realize though: Rito doesn't have to admit they're wrong. They don't have to give in to player feedback. They don't have to care about lost revenue.

Rito has made it very clear that they're willing to risk sending the game under, for their own personal desires. They don't care about customer feedback. They don't care about employees' attitude towards the game or the customers. They aren't willing to listen to customer complaints. They don't care that every disrespected customer has 6,000 Twitter followers who WILL know about it. They don't care that customers would rather give their money to Blizzard.

Five of the greatest businessmen in modern history, ranging Jeff Bezos to Bill Gates have all said that this is NOT how a company should be ran, but what do they know? They're only literally the wealthiest individuals in the entire world.

Wow wow calm down. Riot's a company and of course they answer to people's complaints. People seem to forget the best way to make money is to please the customer so he comes back again. They're just a little slow at it, and have tons of contradictory feedback.

Ahristocats1 votes

i wouldn't insult riot like that

but when it comes to sona you can forget any "they listen to feedbacks" because this is just not true

i met a sona player in 2014, his name was "Best dota 2 Sona" , he used to be a VERY high elo sona player, and after the rework he was pissed off, and after the 30 nerfs she got after the rework he just ragequited league

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2n8M8JVj-riot-fearless-what-was-sona-made-for

and it's because fearless just ignored him and everything he said about sona in fearless "feedback thread" he pointed out everything wrong with the rework and didn't get any reply

it's 3 years later now, and we still didn't get anything to make sona working in higher tiers everything we got was her gutted and buffed few time, mini reworked for nothing, with an unhealthy kit

Sasogwa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XjtELqhA,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2017-12-30T18:55:01.603+0000)

i wouldn't insult riot like that

but when it comes to sona you can forget any "they listen to feedbacks" because this is just not true

i met a sona player in 2014, his name was "Best dota 2 Sona" , he used to be a VERY high elo sona player, and after the rework he was pissed off, and after the 30 nerfs she got after the rework he just ragequited league

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2n8M8JVj-riot-fearless-what-was-sona-made-for

and it's because fearless just ignored him and everything he said about sona in fearless "feedback thread" he pointed out everything wrong with the rework and didn't get any reply

it's 3 years later now, and we still didn't get anything to make sona working in higher tiers everything we got was her gutted and buffed few time, mini reworked for nothing, with an unhealthy kit

Yeah well the problem might be they should create an open discussion with high elo champion mains and discuss with them the state of the champion instead of just nerfing to oblivion any champion they don't deem skilled because it has a bit too much playrate and winrate after a patch inducing a meta favouring them. I honestly doubt the high elo players would be that biased, when you reach high elo you begin to really understand the strengths and weaknesses of champions and be unbiased.

Oh the nerfing IS quite annoying and I hate when they do that, but they do. I really don't get why they'd nerf sona that hard.. I honestly prefer playing against Sona more than other supps, maybe she pokes a lot in botlane but she doesn't feel that bullshit compared to Janna/Lulu or CC tank/supps like braum, when she's at her strongest.

Salson2 votes

Rito is not a hivemind though. While there are a couple of assholes in there who should get fired (and one did), most of them are doing a good job.

Yeah sure, the lane balance is awful at the moment and the Varus/Zac/Vayne/Lux-and-Ez lore changes sucked. But most of it is rather good, because most of Ritoers are doing a good fucking job.

Sightless661 votes

I disagree with everything past your first sentence.

Rito has made it very clear that they're willing to risk sending the game under, for their own personal desires.

Given the continued success of the game despite 6 years saying exactly this, I think it's pretty clear that Riot isn't actually sending the game under. The boards will always bitch without realizing that they represent an incredibly small minority of the most pissed-off players, and some people will quit and will be replaced by new ones just like they always have been. Fact is, Riot is doing a much better job than the boards give them credit for. Still a lot of room for improvement, but nowhere even remotely close to tanking the game.

They aren't willing to listen to customer complaints.

Sure they are. They're just not willing to listen to the boards very often, because it very rarely represents their actual playerbase. It's an echo chamber down to its very core. The boards are way more deluded about the sate of the game than Riot has ever been.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Oh god please, yeah riot found the chinese whales to milk off currently but riot doesn't seem to realize that chinese or asian players in general are not as loyal as the western ones, they will move on the moment an actual competitor arrives and this is pretty much the only reason league is still alive. Overwatch failed, hots, smite failed. PubG maybe might actually push rito off their thrown.

Sightless662 votes

Today on "Shit pulled completely out of an ass", we present: GayFluffyUnicorn's comment!

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Tinfoil hat on: Sounds an awful lot like these chinese comapnies and their mobile games trying to milk customers as much as possible and then shit in their face. Thank god that's not the case with rito gems.

Salson8 votes

Well she needs it more than Irelia

But does she need it more than Mordekaiser Nunu Pantheon Fiddlesticks Well, let's hope she's on the 2018 list, I heard there might be up to 6 reworks.

hhaavviikk5 votes

sure and that attention should come in the form of a rework, sona shouldn't be strong due to the inherent lack of counterplay to her abilities, since her abilities are auto targeted she lacks the same counterplay as ADC's

Mobile Phone3 votes

? shes always had a good winrate just like pretty much all the supports but got up even more when she got buffed a bit back but nerfed again shes back to the same spot maybe down like 1%

xd downvotes cause people are too ignorant to see shes always had around a 50% winrate in all elos other than last month where it went up to 55% before double nerf

Ahristocats2 votes

her win rate IS NOT good right now

hoyohai1 votes

Better than .

Soraka Sivir Twitch Sejuani Darius Kalista Elise Poppy Morgana Shen Corki Yasuo Lux Lissandra Zilean Dr. Mundo Nasus Vel'Koz Fiora Ornn Jayce Gragas Kayn
Ahri Quinn Veigar Azir Jinx Rengar Skarner Xerath Jhin Garen Heimerdinger Varus Diana Pantheon Viktor Ashe Syndra Karma Ryze Rumble Nautilus Gnar Graves Karthus Kennen Teemo Lucian Master Yi Kindred Hecarim Swain Galio Caitlyn Amumu Brand Nunu

In diamond+. Sure it might be 49% but that's better than all of these people.

Edge of Daybreak2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oTEAdIAv,comment-id=0001000300000001,timestamp=2017-12-30T22:30:36.516+0000)

Aw, jeez you're going to hafta put me on your naughty list too because I also don't think Sona is 'unplayable'. Like, that's extreme language dude. I'm happy to hear what you dislike or like about the champion but...people play her. Objectively, she is playable. If you start with that assertion, it's may be taken as trolling because it's grounded in strong emotion rather than reality. :(

Language on this stuff matters because we can only have productive conversations if we start with a reasonable basis. The difference in language between 'I dislike Sona because of this aspect of her play' and 'I and the majority of players think Sona is unplayable' is absolutely massive. One of those statements is a reasonable critique and foundation for discussion and one is hyperbole. Hyperbole cannot be reasonably discussed.

TL:DR Hyperbole means we can't have a productive discussion together.

Just posting so you guys may get a clue as to why your threads keep getting ignored when they are almost always hyperbole. Hopefully the narrative changes considering someone from riot literally posted the reason you don't get responses.

RedCyclone1 votes

I have come to peace with the fact that Sona just can not operate in top tier competitive team settings, will rarely see her in tourneys (unless she is broken) and if she does get picked then she will probably get destroyed

Ever since the rework there is no need for a support that scales like a ADC, supports main job at pro play is to get the ADC scaled and to make sure they don't die, Sona is really crappy at both these aspects with having no hard CC on her basic abilities

TBH I am somewhat okay with this because usually that means she is still decent to use in solo queue ranging the broad field of bronze-masters, unfortunately they have doled out those damn q mana nerfs and she doesn't work anywhere but bronze now because she takes so long to scale and anyone with a brain can shut her down to the point where scaling isn't even an option, just look at the guy who has played Sona the most - Sonaka (1.2k ranked games), they hardly pick Sona anymore because she is that useless

In a perfect world we would get a statement from Riot, reverting the Q mana nerf as well as stating that Sona could be doing better kit wise and will be scheduled to be reworked again down the line, hopefully adding some skill expression this time

Penns3 votes

But what is meta rn tho?

  1. early game junglers that spam gank and have a lot of damage.
  2. Alistar, Leona, Thresh, Blitz, Shen, Taric, Braum, Janna,..
  3. Good early game adcs like Ez, Jhin, MF, Varus and Kalista that also have a lot of damage... and.. Vayne xd

Sona hates pretty much all of those matchups but still has 48-49%+ win rate till diamond lel

RedCyclone2 votes

Yeah, the meta is trash for her

Still means the Q nerfs shouldn't have gone through

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, the meta is trash for her

Still means the Q nerfs shouldn't have gone through

Don't even buy into that garbage. The meta is ALWAYS garbage for her when it comes to others posting about her. It's like saying "The Censer meta wasn't that good for Jinx. Just wait for her meta."

No, Jinx had every button in her kit nerfed with no real compensation while Runaan's gave all hyper-carries spread damage on their autos, like Jinx. That's why she sucked in a hyper-carry infested meta.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

But what is meta rn tho?

  1. early game junglers that spam gank and have a lot of damage.
  2. Alistar, Leona, Thresh, Blitz, Shen, Taric, Braum, Janna,..
  3. Good early game adcs like Ez, Jhin, MF, Varus and Kalista that also have a lot of damage... and.. Vayne xd

Sona hates pretty much all of those matchups but still has 48-49%+ win rate till diamond lel

  1. Sona hates Braum, Taric, and Janna?

  2. People always, and I mean always, pull up this lame ass "it's the meta" excuse for why Sona either feels bad to play or IS bad to play. If champion balance is supposed to "flow" more than "stay stuck on a few champs", then eventually Sona should have a time where she does a thing well. However, she doesn't, and never does. In pro play, she's HOT garbage. In solo queue, she's usually out-shined by any other enchanter, even when she posts better general stats than some of them, since people don't realize that she even does anything. We then blame "the meta" or "she's just too squishy". It's no wonder why people that say this never have an idea of a meta Sona would actually be fond of. Remember: In the Censer meta, Sona got herself 100 -> 0'd by a Lulu/Kog'Maw combo, of all things, when she was in "a favorable meta".

How about: If Sona always feels like crap to play, and it's impossible to make her competitively viable without breaking solo queue in two, maybe it isn't the meta's fault more than it's the champion's design needing to be changed? Because, ultimately, no character in a team game should be made in a way that breaks that game, balance-wise, when they're played well in an organized team.

Penns1 votes

She just had a few months of being god tier in soloq and doing something well tho I mean assassins are pretty much never played in pro play either, Rito should rework Sona if they revert Fizz imo hehe

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

She just had a few months of being god tier in soloq and doing something well tho I mean assassins are pretty much never played in pro play either, Rito should rework Sona if they revert Fizz imo hehe

She wasn't even god tier. Janna was. Sona and Soraka were just the next heads up after Janna's got pushed down a bit at about a 54% to 55% win rate or so. High, yeah, but not Janna's lovely 57% that I had to spam the boards about continually before people realized "Hey...THAT'S FUCKING BROKEN".

Last time Sona was that legit "OH SHIT" status that Janna and Ezreal constantly stroll back into was last year...and even that gave her a whopping 1W/2L win rate in competitive over about 10 games...and her win rate was like 60% in solo queue. Meanwhile Janna does it and Worlds literally has more Janna/Lulu than any other champion, period. Just rework the kit. It fucking sucks.

zero3561 votes

Yes, all very good But I don't think Riot really cares, like at all, about Sona

And I would disagree about taking an Invoker route or at the least I'm unwilling to discredit until tested I will say that making it complex as Invoker's (some 27 odd combinations, if I recall correctly) is definitely a bad idea. Too much complexity that either (as stated) means she can't control the passive because she's focused on choosing abilities (often reactively) or can't control the abilities because she's focused on getting the right passive.

BUT a simpler version I think could work. I personally would suggest making the effect scale with the number of times each spell was cast. More Qs towards the passive means more damage. Or something like that. Of course that yields its own problem of forcing her to want to use the same spell more than once per rotation, which still forces her hand a bit. I'm okay with forcing Sona into a certain pattern to some extent, but that seems a little extreme. And of course, forcing her hand her is also very CD dependent; if her Q has 2-3 second cooldown (in lane), this wouldn't really be an issue. The ability itself would probably be an issue, but making her want to stack her passive with multiple Qs would not be.

So I guess I would say Invoker is a poor idea for every iteration I can conceive, but I'm not willing to completely discredit it as a source of inspiration or the possibility that some idea based around it could work.

Karunamon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XjtELqhA,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-30T09:20:41.209+0000)

people want her to be invoker from dota, that's a terrible idea. Invoker can decide which spell to cast, if Sona's passive becomes Invoke she won't be able to decide which passive to have anymore in lane

I don't quite follow what you're saying here.

If anyone reading this is unfamiliar, Invoker is a champion that has 12 different spells at his disposal (on his ult), and which of those spells is cast is based on which order you use his 3 normal spells in. QWE+R is one spell, QQQ+R is another.

Invoker has a passive buff he gets depending on which of the "ingredient" spells is up - they provide HP regen, AS&MS, or AD.

I fail to see how that doesn't map directly onto Sona. Her passive buff could be linked to the ingredients.

Ahristocats2 votes

if you make Sona's Q/W/E different musics used for passive without any effects on Q/W/E except stats like invoker it might work thing is people want her passive to become invoke and her Q/W/E to still be spells , and this removes your agency over your passive because you need to use your Q/W/E in different situations

Nymzo1 votes

While I agree with everything you said, here's one problem: considaring she had a ''rework'', I wouldn't be surprise if she's pretty much low priority for both Riot's eyes and the community's.

If we take Swain and Irelia out of the picture, here are the champions that need a VGU first since their gameplay is so simple, you can literally tell what they are going to do the second you pick them in champ select. In fact I remember two of them had no data in a particular site a few weeks ago: Nunu Udyr Volibear

Then you have the champions with toxic gameplay that are also have very old models: Pantheon Tryndamere and maybe even Teemo.

Then, that's not mentionning those who already got a rework like your favorite champion Mordekaiser that will get a VGU or just another rework like Rengar. Like it or not, those champions take ressources, ressources that could have been use for someone else if SOMEONE didn't fuck up their rework. That's also not mentionning those newer champions rework like RekSai Kindred Azir and the future one for Kalista that also take ressources to make.

So yea, probably not gonna happen this season too I'm afraid.

zero3561 votes

considaring she had a ''rework'', I wouldn't be surprise if she's pretty much low priority for both Riot's eyes and the community's.

Ryze

Rainfall1 votes

enhancers had a good 6 months of being the best supports in the game? can we not make support the dumpster role for bad players?

YoRHa 2B1 votes

I don't play Sona now cause she's boring... like for real, I don't have fun playing her right now. I want a rework. I was thinking about what if Sona had a guitar and was melee range? I dunno, just some stupid idea, or not, I dunno. I want to have fun playing as her and against her.

Miku Hime sama1 votes

{quoted}

I was thinking about what if Sona had a guitar and was melee range?

You mean Elder Tauren Chieftain?

Ahri Inari1 votes

I think her kit pretty unhealty, I rather put her in rework list than buff list.

Śhunpo1 votes

You say she's garbage....and yet she still has one of the best ultimates in the game, her heal is still really really good and her damage is obnoxious.

She's not garbage.

Miku Hime sama2 votes

{quoted}

You say she's garbage....and yet she still has one of the best ultimates in the game, her heal is still really really good and her damage is obnoxious.

She's not garbage.

Literally everything you said is the opposite of the truth. Sona has one of the worst ults in the game. She's the worst healer in the game and she's outdamaged by literally every support.

This is literally public info. You can literally check the facts yourself, if you weren't so blatantly prejudiced:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sona/Abilities

Śhunpo1 votes

Then why on earth are people still playing her up in Challenger?

Meep Man1 votes

Isn't she sitting at a comfortable 50% win rate though?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XjtELqhA,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-30T09:20:41.209+0000)

that's how RIOT FEARLESS found the "solution" to balance a no counterplay champion, you literally ruin everything you touch my lord.

Was this really necessary? Particularly that last bit.... :P

Draehl1 votes

Sona is struggling (admittedly, moreso) for the same reason I feel my Bard is- burst. While both champs have wombo potential with their ults, I'd argue they really do better in longer fights due to their relatively short cooldowns, heals, and overall versatility. The problem is that most all champions in the game are doing so much damage we get bursted down so quickly we can't make use of our strengths in these prolonged fights. Nami is a similar champion that is doing well right now since her kit allows her to function much more safely from the back lines than these two can.

If overall damage levels are reduced to the pre-runes-reforged-level I'd wager both champs would see a much higher win rate.

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