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Idea for a secondary negative passive on Kalista similar to one on Yasuo

Kingsgrave··18 votes·1,427 views

Critical Strikes deal drastically reduced damage on Yasuo to compensate for some of the strengths his passive gives him. Thats fine and all well and good. His passive allows him to crit far more often and he gets to Crit in an AoE on a low CD, directly amping up his ability to perform autoattacks. Its like a triple steroid essentially, so they had to limit it in some way to balance him out and most would argue he is pretty balanced currently.

Kalista needs something like that. She is a great champion and has some amount of counterplay but I don't feel like she has enough for how much utility, mobility and overall potential she brings to a game.

So I propose this:

***If Kalista is slowed it reduces her Attack Speed by 40/35/30% of the percentage and any further AS slows work at 50% effectiveness ***

Levels 1/7/13 for reference

99% slow would reduce her AS by 39.6/34.65/29.6% 50% slow would reduce her AS by 20/17.5/15% 10% slow would reduce her AS by 4/3.5/3%

This gives her an exploitable weakness that she doesn't currently have. She will be super weak to Slows and have a unique interaction with Attack Speed slows by basically ignoring them. Directly tying her ability to move with her ability to autoattack.

All of her other "weaknesses" are all weaknesses that every other ADC has. Squishy, varied range, sustained damage instead of upfront burst etc.,

She will still be super mobile and super hard to catch, but if you slow her you will have a lot easier time dealing with her in general and gives her a lot of unique interactions with characters like Sejuani and Lissandra.

Thoughts?

25 Comments

GigglingAngel3 votes

Seems like a good idea to me. :)

Mat7itan2 votes

So if this happens then your telling me I just need to play support nasus against kalista so that my whither which already has an attack speed debuff would make it impossible for her to trade. Or really any other champion with a large slow. Anivia would be fun in this situation. I could always just build rylais on any champ that doesn't have a slow too. The amount of counterplay that this would open up would be immense.

Duke Anax3 votes

I think that's the point. right now it's hard to chase her and hard to hit her, while she can do some pretty bad damage to you.

This way it'd be just as hard to catch her, but at least you have a chance to take some damage off.

Mat7itan1 votes

SO you want her to be able to do no damage at all? Yes she is hard to catch and does a lot of damage, but wouldn't it make more sense to reduce the base damage she does than to make it so she can't do any damage? Don't take away her ability to attack. Take away her ability to do a lot of damage with each attack.

Duke Anax2 votes

Kalista doesn't do a lot of damage with each attack, she does a lot of damage by stacking spears for rend.

And a bit reduced attack speed is hardly doing no damage.

xl Kirito lx1 votes

So cap rend stacks. Right now, that's the only thing she has for damage. It's enough to warrant a runaan's on her.

Ulquiorra9952 votes

Sorry but this change would flat out destroy her. You know that Riot considers Urgot's 15% damage reduction and Sona's 20% extremely strong and a nightmare to balance? Remember how Ezreal's 20-40% AS slow was considered an instant win in trades? With this change new Zilean and Thresh will be able to reduce her damage by 99%. Nasus by 95% Lee by 60%. Do I need to continue? She'd never, ever see serious play again.

Funny thing, isn't it? Everyone thought Kalista was balanced, trading damage for mobility and utility. Then suddenly, she does good in LCS. Well no shit. A champ built around coordinating with your ally being strong when used in environment with most coordination. And everryone just jumps on the hate train. Yes, she's beyond unholy against immobile melees, but, be honest - it has much more to do with immobile melees general state in this game than Kalista.

What I'd like to see is to change her dash to scale with movespeed. Means it gets longer if you buy more movespeed and reduced by slows.

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

Sorry but this change would flat out destroy her. You know that Riot considers Urgot's 15% damage reduction and Sona's 20% extremely strong and a nightmare to balance? Remember how Ezreal's 20-40% AS slow was considered an instant win in trades? With this change new Zilean and Thresh will be able to reduce her damage by 99%. Nasus by 95% Lee by 60%. Do I need to continue? She'd never, ever see serious play again.

Funny thing, isn't it? Everyone thought Kalista was balanced, trading damage for mobility and utility. Then suddenly, she does good in LCS. Well no shit. A champ built around coordinating with your ally being strong when used in environment with most coordination. And everryone just jumps on the hate train. Yes, she's beyond unholy against immobile melees, but, be honest - it has much more to do with immobile melees general state in this game than Kalista.

What I'd like to see is to change her dash to scale with movespeed. Means it gets longer if you buy more movespeed and reduced by slows.

"everyone thought she was balanced"

did you not read the forums at all when she was announced? It was nothing but people complaining about the idea of her.

xl Kirito lx1 votes

Pre-release, yeah. After a week of being out, people noticed that she was a high skillcap champion that was overly reliant on her support. Enough people thought she was underpowered, based on the buffs she received.

Ulquiorra9951 votes

{quoted}

"everyone thought she was balanced"

did you not read the forums at all when she was announced? It was nothing but people complaining about the idea of her.

That was pre-release. I'm talking about when she actually hit live. Consider that most people have no access to PBE and their opinion about unreleased champions is not standing on a solid base.

Celeste Benal2 votes

There are these things that reduce her AS, and thus the frequency of her jumps. Use them.

Kingsgrave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celeste Benal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XaiVmAHm,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-02-11T18:36:16.155+0000)

There are these things that reduce her AS, and thus the frequency of her jumps. Use them.

That argument doesnt really work against Vayne and it certainly doesnt work against Kalista. Ive seen people dodge every single AS slow mechanic and just murder those with FH and Randuins because they just couldnt touch her even with the very minor slow.

Keep in mind she rushes a 70% Attack Speed item most of the time.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

how about kalista having simply less atackspeed overalll or having a cap on the atack speed she can actualy have thats lower than 2.50

your idea actualy good (atacking some negative effect to kalistas passive) but misses the problem, you make her more suspectible to cc while the problem is that she is almoust immune to skillshots and ground targeted abilities

i think that reducing her atack speed and the amount of dashes overall is better since it effectively slows her movement and makes her stand in place longer before dashing meaning that skillshots can hit while walking champions dont get outrunneed so easily

making her more suspectible to slows is too situational, most of champions with good cc can already face her while its the guys who lack any sort of cc/ mobility it or have it atached to a skillshot are the ones who suffer

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XaiVmAHm,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-02-11T17:50:32.311+0000)

how about kalista having simply less atackspeed overalll or having a cap on the atack speed she can actualy have thats lower than 2.50

your idea actualy good (atacking some negative effect to kalistas passive) but misses the problem, you make her more suspectible to cc while the problem is that she is almoust immune to skillshots and ground targeted abilities

i think that reducing her atack speed and the amount of dashes overall is better since it effectively slows her movement and makes her stand in place longer before dashing meaning that skillshots can hit while walking champions dont get outrunneed so easily

making her more suspectible to slows is too situational, most of champions with good cc can already face her while its the guys who lack any sort of cc/ mobility it or have it atached to a skillshot are the ones who suffer

I feel like that just makes her less fun to watch and to play if you just reduce her dashes overall.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

my change reduces the fun but also reduces the problems she makes your change also reduces the fun when you get slowed while most of the problems remain intact

who won ?

my main concern here wasnt to keep her fun, but to make her less opressive for skillshot based and meele champions also my change should actualy make her better to play both as and againtst less dashes means that she is easier to learn also ballancing her interactions with diferent champions means we can better ballance her stats

she gets less dashes but i think that its a win win change long term

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XaiVmAHm,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-02-11T18:08:13.647+0000)

my change reduces the fun but also reduces the problems she makes your change also reduces the fun when you get slowed while most of the problems remain intact

who won ?

my main concern here wasnt to keep her fun, but to make her less opressive for skillshot based and meele champions also my change should actualy make her better to play both as and againtst less dashes means that she is easier to learn also ballancing her interactions with diferent champions means we can better ballance her stats

she gets less dashes but i think that its a win win change long term

Being slowed is never fun for anyone but it doesnt destroy who someone is as a character because they are slowed.

You just hate her passive and want to reduce it as much as you can. I hate it too but thats not how you design a game. You gotta make every character fair and fun to play even if they have concepts you hate.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

You just hate her passive and want to reduce it as much as you can. I hate it too but thats not how you design a game. You gotta make every character fair and fun to play even if they have concepts you hate.

no you just like to play her and cry for buffs here

how can i tell and be so sure im a kalista player myself (at least when im not lagging, its impossible to playe her with even minor lags) and i notice that her kit is innately toxic to the max, you are just biased her into calling everyone who doesnt agree with you a hater

the main problem is that kalista isnt ballanced to be equaly good vs diferent kinds of champions if enemy is skillshot reliant or a meele without good gapclosers their possibilites are reduced close to zed on the other hand if enemy is relying on point and click abilities or can simply close the gap beetwen him and kalista its kalista who has no options

when we have wayne she has downtimes and shorter range (kalistas range is even further amplified by the fact she jumps back after an aa) which gives enemies opportunities while wayne herself has her tumble to outplay it which makes her fights skill reliand whatever is the enemy every champion should be working that way, kalista doesnt

i went straight out for reducing the amount of dashes because the amount of ground she covers while dealing damage is what makes he unballanceable with numbers

if riot gives her some numbers to even her out vs point and click guys then she is plainly op being able to stand up to her only counter if riot takes away her numbers to make her less op vs skillshots and stuff then she is plainly up since anything that touches her blows her up

also im not saying to remove her dashes but to limit them, kalista will still be the dashing bastard we know but she cant be immune to skillshots and uncatchable for meele champions, while her hp cant be so low that anything point and click based destroys her

tldr 1)shame on you biased crybaby 2)i speak for ballance while you speak for random things 3) i agree that drawback is needed but tying it with slow is the worst thing you can do as it might even deepen her problem of her being only counterable in champion select

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XaiVmAHm,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-11T22:23:59.944+0000)

no you just like to play her and cry for buffs here

how can i tell and be so sure im a kalista player myself (at least when im not lagging, its impossible to playe her with even minor lags) and i notice that her kit is innately toxic to the max, you are just biased her into calling everyone who doesnt agree with you a hater

the main problem is that kalista isnt ballanced to be equaly good vs diferent kinds of champions if enemy is skillshot reliant or a meele without good gapclosers their possibilites are reduced close to zed on the other hand if enemy is relying on point and click abilities or can simply close the gap beetwen him and kalista its kalista who has no options

when we have wayne she has downtimes and shorter range (kalistas range is even further amplified by the fact she jumps back after an aa) which gives enemies opportunities while wayne herself has her tumble to outplay it which makes her fights skill reliand whatever is the enemy every champion should be working that way, kalista doesnt

i went straight out for reducing the amount of dashes because the amount of ground she covers while dealing damage is what makes he unballanceable with numbers

if riot gives her some numbers to even her out vs point and click guys then she is plainly op being able to stand up to her only counter if riot takes away her numbers to make her less op vs skillshots and stuff then she is plainly up since anything that touches her blows her up

also im not saying to remove her dashes but to limit them, kalista will still be the dashing bastard we know but she cant be immune to skillshots and uncatchable for meele champions, while her hp cant be so low that anything point and click based destroys her

tldr

I hate playing Kalista actually. I dislike any ranged ADC that isn't Graves or Quinn.

I didn't call you a hater and if thats truly what you got from that I apologize. Don't mistake my bluntness and straightforward way of speaking for insults.

Make champions harder to play but continue to make them more exciting is what Riot wants to do and honestly what they should be doing. Your solution works, and Im not saying mine is any better from a holistic design standpoint, but it just reduces her ability to be exciting or really that useful. She doesn't have that much to her if you reduce the amount of times she can jump or how frequently. If you just give her drastic weaknesses like a utility hypercarry should have, then its better for everyone.

They could have easily removed everything that made Yasuo interesting but they just made him harder to play and now he is conceived as rather balanced by the community, pros and Riot as far as I can tell.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

She doesn't have that much to her if you reduce the amount of times she can jump or how frequently. If you just give her drastic weaknesses like a utility hypercarry should have, then its better for everyone.

thats a hard topic to speak kalista's main feature is definetly her jumping, but there are some gimmincs not to be forgotten a)the jumps are supposed to give her the playstyle of an adc that can effectively stay in fights without getting collapsed on other adc needs to wait for that opening or their team to give them a safe zone where they can autoatack freely, otherwise they die to enemy frontline or backline kalista is suposed to be less reliant on that zone since she can reposition while dealing damage, but she does not need to dash twice per second to do that (passive would fill the unique niche even if it will be reduced, thats just how it works) b)kalista has actualy nice kit to back the jumps up, she is the first adc that actualy works with ruunan, she has good utility and poke and the unique soulbound that she interacts with

when i speak about reducing her jumps ofci dont speak about simple cutting of her power, if she would prove lacking riot will be able to allocate some power into her stats and skills, and her kit gives loads of ways to ballance her but riot cant touch her as long as 99% of her power comes from her jumping around and being untouchable since it would cause her to blow up a big part of the ballance

They could have easily removed everything that made Yasuo interesting but they just made him harder to play and now he is conceived as rather balanced by the community, pros and Riot as far as I can tell.

id like to disagree with you yasuo was always hard to play and he is still as hard as he was to use mechanicaly and to full extent what riot actualy reduced was his stats so he would be more sucpectible to any form of punishment since good playing yasuo was barely punishable nerfs made him ballanced but not harder to play

also he is going to be op in some time, the endless circle of nerfs will ensure that (it always does)

on the other hand kalista is 100% diferent problem her kit is 100% free win vs certain champions and 100% sure lose vs diferent pool of champions those interactions are far beyond simple counterpicking

Teridax681 votes

Just have slows directly reduce her dash speed. Her kiting power comes from her ability to quickly move away from any attacker while she herself is attacking, so if slows force her to dash slowly she'd be a lot easier to reach.

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

Just have slows directly reduce her dash speeds. Her kiting power comes from her ability to quickly move away from any attacker while she herself is attacking, so if slows force her to dash slowly she'd be a lot easier to reach.

That messes with her autoattack timing and makes her clunkier than she needs or deserves to be.

Teridax681 votes

And arbitrarily reducing her attack speed won't? Having slows reduce her movement would be intuitive; having that same form of CC reduce a stat it's not supposed to affect, using a formula that changes over time, wouldn't. In the worst case scenario, Kalista 's autoattacks could be divorced from her dashes in order to allow her to attack and change her jump direction on the fly, regardless of how slowly she moves, and it would attack her mobility a lot more directly than an autoattack anti-steroid.

Killer X 121 votes

lol, Doublelift

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

Would it be too much if whatever slow affected her also affected her AS? So a 50% slow would reduce her AS by 50%.

Terff1 votes

Nasus TRY TO JUMP AWAY FROM ME NOW

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