Why does Vladimir's E get blocked ?

option paralysis··23 votes·2,817 views

I don't understand. For an ability of a 10% max hp cost, I'd at least think I can clear waves fast. I can't think of a mage that can't wave clear because his abilities get blocked by ONE minion. I know normal waves you can clear with one or two E's, even that's 20% but mid/late when the waves push up I lose up to 50% hp because 1 minions blocks other 10 from being cleared. Idk, I dislike the rework. Even his normal Q is just a shadow of his old self. Late game I healed for 80 HP!!! All his power is in crimson rush which is counterplay for the enemy but for the Vlad player it's just "ok my previous 2 abilites are trash but I have to use them so I get the third one and even then I only have a 2 second window to use it". Meh. And on BLOOD LORD skin. there's little to no blood on his Q animation or at least I can't see anything...

30 Comments

DrDiaga15 votes

Another lackluster rework. Notice the trend?

BlackVine213 votes

I disagree with the overall trend of the post and comment section and here is why. -It is easy to position so that your E hits every minion in a wave -Vladimir has much better sustain than he used too -Vladimir not longer needs to burn through his HP before a fight by stacking his e -Vladimir now has the tools to reasonably keep up with his opponent when going for a kill via crimson rush and the slow on his e -Vladimir's E now has much higher immediate gratification

WoonStruck2 votes

{quoted}

I disagree with the overall trend of the post and comment section and here is why. -It is easy to position so that your E hits every minion in a wave

If its only the normal 6 that spawn, yes. If its anything larger, absolutely not.

-Vladimir has much better sustain than he used too

No he doesn't. He lost the instant heal via damage-based WotA healing, which padded the delay on his Q's return particle. That's actually a huge deal, considering his healing is only past breaking even under ~25% health. If you're under 30%, you're probably going to die before you get an empowered Q off and receive the heal particle.

-Vladimir not longer needs to burn through his HP before a fight by stacking his e

No decent Vlad was missing more then 70-90 HP by keeping E stacks up, and that's worst case. Health regen and E stacks, yo. There are jungle creeps, minion drive-by healing, etc when heading into just about any fight, in any other case.

-Vladimir now has the tools to reasonably keep up with his opponent when going for a kill via crimson rush and the slow on his e

If you think a 1 second slow (that you have to slow yourself for) and a .5 second 16 MS buff are enough to keep up with anyone, especially with all of his huge animation delays, I'm just going to sit here and laugh at your perspective.

-Vladimir's E now has much higher immediate gratification

That's a lie. Considering E+Q always went together before, his immediate gratification when hitting someone with E was higher. To add to that, all I had to do was see my E particle flying to feel gratified, because I knew it would chunk them, heal me a little, all while I'm heading somewhere safe or chasing them down with Rylai's.

The current E is "Gee, I hope he's stupid enough to stay in range" while you're charging up. Funny thing is, considering the unreliability and cost, its not even that powerful.

The situations where decent players will eat E without wanting to or being forced to are few and far in between. A one second charge up while you taking significant true damage isn't exactly immediate gratification. You often have to commit to a fight to see where it will go if they aren't glass cannon. It pretty much comes down to MR: Yes? You're losing. No? You're winning.

BlackVine212 votes

{quoted}

If its only the normal 6 that spawn, yes. If its anything larger, absolutely not.

Sorry, never had a problem with this. I can't relate. His wave clear seems fine.

No he doesn't. He lost the instant heal via damage-based WotA healing, which padded the delay on his Q's return particle. That's actually a huge deal, considering his healing is only past breaking even under ~25% health. If you're under 30%, you're probably going to die before you get an empowered Q off and receive the heal particle.

Instant healing wasn't very high until late game if you went AP, and low early game making much less of a difference. AP focused vlad builds relied on going in, REQ, hourglass, EQW, EQ. (Essential spamming your skills as fast as you could and praying you didn't get stunned before you could become untargetable) On top of that, WOTA was removed from the game and was, quite frankly, an antiquated item anyway. No other Legendary teir item gives JUST boring stats with nothing special about them. (For example: Abyssal, Ardent, Athene's, Banshee's, DMP, Death's Dance, Duskblade, etc all have unique things about them that seperate them from a pickaxe on steroids. The closest item to wota's stat-only status is ROA, which is a very viable option for any mage that's playing for the late game, whereas wota was built by pretty much just vlad to compensate for his bad sustain)

No decent Vlad was missing more then 70-90 HP by keeping E stacks up, and that's worst case. Health regen and E stacks, yo. There are jungle creeps, minion drive-by healing, etc when heading into just about any fight, in any other case.

"Sorry it took me so long to get to the teamfight, I had to go through the jungle so I wasn't missing a lot of hp when I got here.. Oh, and using my E breaks my walk cycle, which is only slightly more annoying that a .5 second, 20% slow."

If you think a 1 second slow (that you have to slow yourself for) and a .5 second 16 MS buff are enough to keep up with anyone, especially with all of his huge animation delays, I'm just going to sit here and laugh at your perspective.

If by animation delay you mean the spell breaking your walk cycle, new vlad has fewer than old vlad. Considering just his E alone, he self-slows for 20% for .5 seconds at all ranks, and the slow that it deals is 40/45/50/55/60% for .5 seconds (Not 1 second). In addition, swiftness boots work for both parties to reduce the slow, which is recommended since it is far easier to get 40% CDR after the mage rework. In addition to his E (which as you can see actually helps you stick to your enemy where as the old e relied on crystal scepter) you have your crimson rush. Crimson Rush obviously helps keep up with enemies and -greatly- increases his damage and healing.

That's a lie. Considering E+Q always went together before, his immediate gratification when hitting someone with E was higher. To add to that, all I had to do was see my E particle flying to feel gratified, because I knew it would chunk them, heal me a little, all while I'm heading somewhere safe or chasing them down with Rylai's.

I'm not going to argue the point. Not because I don't respect your opinion, it's just that what gratification comes down to varies person to person and is hard to truly prove/disprove.

The current E is "Gee, I hope he's stupid enough to stay in range" while you're charging up. Funny thing is, considering the unreliability and cost, its not even that powerful.

As mentioned before, E is typically used in tandem with your crimson rush passive. Also, if the enemy is fighting you then gee, they're probably in range. No one said, "wow, I totally forgot vlad could use his e" and that hasn't changed between old vlad and new vlad. It could be argued that it's obvious when vlad will run up to EQ you based on his passive bar, however this creates well-defined moments of power and clarity that are key game-play philosophies that Riot Games hold. If you think it's better for a champion to have a mediocre level of power all the time than clear, easy-to-read high levels of power and low levels of power, than that's perfectly fine. But riot games doesn't hold that philosophy, and that is why it is how it is. Yes, you can argue that 4 stacks on tides is a clear indication of power, but as long as vlad remained in lane, that power was constant (It also ment sacrificing his sustain to keep that power) It proposed a strange ultimadum. "I should fight vlad when he's strong so he sacrifices his damage so that he can start healing back up. . . or. . . should I not fight vlad when he's strong because he'll out damage me? What if I keep forcing trades with him over and over. . . but he's supposed to be a sustain mage... isn't that what he wants??" After vlad got his wota, that ultimatum became "Vlad no longer sacrifices sustain to keep his strength.. which means he's always strong"

The situations where decent players will eat E without wanting to or being forced to are few and far in between. A one second charge up while you taking significant true damage isn't exactly immediate gratification. You often have to commit to a fight to see where it will go if they aren't glass cannon. It pretty much comes down to MR: Yes? You're losing. No? You're winning.

As I'm sure you are aware, vlad's play style isn't typically synonymous with full on commits until after he's poked down the enemy laner to a point where he's comfortable that he can kill them. If adding the 1.5 second delay on the full charged E can make or break a fight, you're were cutting it very close. Moreso when considering it has a much faster projectile speed and slightly higher range than the old tides of blood. Besides, he can instantly cast it, which means he will take less damage and deal less damage in exchange for making that damage immediate, much faster than the old e. This gives him options and versatility.

If I missed anything just let me know, preferably in a respectful, constructive tone.

Cynika2 votes

But while e projectiles are faster than before, old e was guaranteed to hit if they were in range when it was cast. E now can miss if they move outside of range after it was cast. I really miss old times where Tristana would rocket jump away, only to die half a second later to my e :)

And snap cast e does very little damage, 90 base damage at max rank (30-45 during lane phase) with a 2.5% health ratio and 35% AP ratio is very weak. The only time I really snap cast e in lane is to CS (even then it sometimes fails lol).

I still think vlad's biggest problem in lane (including old vlad) is that by the time you are able to all in an opponent to kill them, they know it and just back away (then come back with MR QQ). With no cc and no mobility, vlad has no way to engage for the kill without using flash. The only time I really get kills is if my jungler gets a good gank off or they're being greedy under turret with low health.

Just my 2 cents

WoonStruck2 votes

Sorry, never had a problem with this. I can't relate. His wave clear seems fine.

A large benefit to Vlad was how quickly he could clear waves, then return to his team. That's gone now. If your inhibitor's down, Vlad is now a terrible option to have the one defending base, especially with more than one inhibitor down.

Instant healing wasn't very high until late game if you went AP, and low early game making much less of a difference. AP focused vlad builds relied on going in, REQ, hourglass, EQW, EQ. (Essential spamming your skills as fast as you could and praying you didn't get stunned before you could become untargetable) On top of that, WOTA was removed from the game and was, quite frankly, an antiquated item anyway. No other Legendary teir item gives JUST boring stats with nothing special about them. (For example: Abyssal, Ardent, Athene's, Banshee's, DMP, Death's Dance, Duskblade, etc all have unique things about them that seperate them from a pickaxe on steroids. The closest item to wota's stat-only status is ROA, which is a very viable option for any mage that's playing for the late game, whereas wota was built by pretty much just vlad to compensate for his bad sustain)

The instant-heal was extremely noticeable, as it was always higher than your Q's base heal. Also, the combo is R->E->Q->W->E->Q->Zhonya's->E->Q->W->E->Q. Nobody wastes Zhonya's that early unless they have to.

WotA wasn't just a boring stat-stick. It allowed you to heal based on your initial damage, rather than post-mitigation. That's a good trade-off if you compare it to something like bloodthirster. Its a parallel to Infinity Edge or Death Cap, though healing rather than damage, and comparable to many other AD items as well. To say its antiquated is entirely false. To say its better to remove it than keep it in the game, due to the limited members of the cast that can successfully utilize it, crutching, and abuse-cases, would be true.

"Sorry it took me so long to get to the teamfight, I had to go through the jungle so I wasn't missing a lot of hp when I got here.. Oh, and using my E breaks my walk cycle, which is only slightly more annoying that a .5 second, 20% slow."

Again, your health was never low enough for cases such as what you described to ever occur. Decent Vlad players were missing 70-90 HP at any given moment. No more.

Also, everything breaks Vlad's walk-cycle except his W. Even with the new rework. Q, E, and R.

If by animation delay you mean the spell breaking your walk cycle, new vlad has fewer than old vlad. Considering just his E alone, he self-slows for 20% for .5 seconds at all ranks, and the slow that it deals is 40/45/50/55/60% for .5 seconds (Not 1 second). In addition, swiftness boots work for both parties to reduce the slow, which is recommended since it is far easier to get 40% CDR after the mage rework. In addition to his E (which as you can see actually helps you stick to your enemy where as the old e relied on crystal scepter) you have your crimson rush. Crimson Rush obviously helps keep up with enemies and -greatly- increases his damage and healing.

New Vlad has just as many as old Vlad. Every ability except for W. Its called a cast animation.

Its not any easier to get 40% CDR after the mage rework. Anyone worth their salt was using CDR runes to hit 10, 20 or 30% depending on what they were planning on building towards. After the rework, you have to fill those runes with something else that gives much less effect than what that CDR did pre-rework.

The new .5 second slow doesn't really help you stick in realistic scenarios. It would be better if they removed it to put power somewhere else, since he near- universally buys Rylai's now.

Crimson Rush doesn't help keep up with enemies at all. 16 MS for its insanely short duration does nothing for you in cases where they aren't already in range anyway. It helps in very early laning, and that's it.

I'm not going to argue the point. Not because I don't respect your opinion, it's just that what gratification comes down to varies person to person and is hard to truly prove/disprove.

Fair.

As mentioned before, E is typically used in tandem with your crimson rush passive. Also, if the enemy is fighting you then gee, they're probably in range. No one said, "wow, I totally forgot vlad could use his e" and that hasn't changed between old vlad and new vlad. It could be argued that it's obvious when vlad will run up to EQ you based on his passive bar, however this creates well-defined moments of power and clarity that are key game-play philosophies that Riot Games hold. If you think it's better for a champion to have a mediocre level of power all the time than clear, easy-to-read high levels of power and low levels of power, than that's perfectly fine. But riot games doesn't hold that philosophy, and that is why it is how it is. Yes, you can argue that 4 stacks on tides is a clear indication of power, but as long as vlad remained in lane, that power was constant (It also ment sacrificing his sustain to keep that power) It proposed a strange ultimadum. "I should fight vlad when he's strong so he sacrifices his damage so that he can start healing back up. . . or. . . should I not fight vlad when he's strong because he'll out damage me? What if I keep forcing trades with him over and over. . . but he's supposed to be a sustain mage... isn't that what he wants??" After vlad got his wota, that ultimatum became "Vlad no longer sacrifices sustain to keep his strength.. which means he's always strong"

In realistic scenarios, you can't rely on crimson rush to be casting E. You're dead weight if you do that. The 'key game-play philosophies that Riot Games hold' is bull and you know it. The degree to which they went with Vlad is above and beyond the 'well-defined moments of power and clarity' displayed for any champion, and it absolutely gutted him. Not because they're displaying it. Because they made him less reliable, nerfed him, and telegraph every single way he can impact anything, not that he has any real impact now when he actually manages to do something.

Another thing is that Vlad was actually very weak prior to level 7. He couldn't manage all-ins until after level 12. Considering you have to wait half the game until you can reasonably function, it was fair. His laning was parallel to Nasus' laning, which many people don't complain about.

As I'm sure you are aware, vlad's play style isn't typically synonymous with full on commits until after he's poked down the enemy laner to a point where he's comfortable that he can kill them. If adding the 1.5 second delay on the full charged E can make or break a fight, you're were cutting it very close. Moreso when considering it has a much faster projectile speed and slightly higher range than the old tides of blood. Besides, he can instantly cast it, which means he will take less damage and deal less damage in exchange for making that damage immediate, much faster than the old e. This gives him options and versatility.

If I missed anything just let me know, preferably in a respectful, constructive tone.

No, he was never about full commits until he gets Rylai's. As far as that goes, both kits run the same pattern, due to the massive animation delays he has and lack of mobility. The problem is that team-fights cannot support this play pattern, making the new Vlad pretty useless.

The problem isn't that 1.5 second delay. Its that nothing you've said really applies post-laning. Its that in teamfights, Vlad's impact within 5 seconds is extremely minimal considering all of the ways to 'out-play' him now, even during his best-case scenarios. And the amount of pay-out he gets for the next 5 seconds doesn't make that worth it. Nor do the next 5. Or the next 5. It takes over 5 rotations for Vlad to be able to kill anything that isn't glass cannon, and that's IF they choose to face-tank him. In such a scenario, he basically isn't casting E, or he's paying 50% of his health in true damage over that time. Delays stack up in situations like that.

The new E's snap cast does under 1/3 the damage of old E, and has a higher CD. It deals damage maybe .25 seconds quicker. If they're in melee range. It doesn't give him ANY options or versatility, in reality.

And finally, the range increase is pretty moot, considering most intelligent people will be moving away from you. Due to the missile speed of E, the effective range is about the same from Vlad's perspective.

Cynika2 votes

I can understand the idea of wanting counter play to e, but I just wish that it would still hit targets behind the first. Just reduce % damage for each target it goes through

option paralysis2 votes

I mean, it's an obvious downgrade from his previous E. As a Vladimir player I just hate clearing waves now and before it was awesome.

Cynika2 votes

Agreed. They need to add something to e to justify its health cost. Right now it doesn't feel great to clear waves, and if the opponent has any MR you're hurting yourself more than you're hurting them.

The ult heal buff slated for 6.10 is not the answer vlad needs IMO

ComatosePhoenix2 votes

Just walk into the middle of the wave before casting e. what they added to it to justify the health costs is a 10% max health ratio. Personally I think if it was penetrating they would need to tone down the damage it deals.

also if you lose 50% health just from casting e you need to use q more. with the low cooldown lategame you can keep pretty healthy just using it on whatever you can whenever its off cooldown.

also:

Cynka and if the opponent has any MR you're hurting yourself more than you're hurting them.

Eh, your dealing 10% of your max health + 70% of your AP, If they have enough magic resistance to counteract that they have invested a LOT of their gold into magic resistance or you haven't bought enough stuff.

WoonStruck2 votes

Actually, it takes just one MR item to make E inefficient. Its efficiency starts out at 80%, due to base MR. Any more means you're giving up more than you're getting out.

The AP ratio literally doesn't matter because the rest of his ratios suck, with the exception of (possibly) every 8 seconds. Pro players are even just going SV, Warmog's, Zhonya's/Rylai's.

There are many things wrong with the rework.

BlackVine212 votes

I disagree. You sacrificing 10% of your current hp to deal that amount (+ap ratios) to an area around you. In a team fight, that means multible enemy champions will lose a chunk of health for just 1 of your teams.

Besides, HP is a resource, just like mana or gold. Vlad can regenerate this resource faster than almost every other champion in the game. So when you're fighting someone that doesn't sustain very hard (For example, malphite/riven/singed/etc) they have a much harder time recovering from that hit than you will. (Also because your E is usually used in tandem with the speed boost from crimson rush and followed by an empowered Q, so you honestly should be getting that hp back right away anyway)

Cynika3 votes

With new e though, only way to get it off on multiple people is if they're horribly out of position or if you're in so deep you can easily be focused and killed. Balancing a skill around other people being terrible isn't a good plan.

And while yes HP is a resource for vlad, the way he regens it isn't reliable anymore. So many times when I die, my Crimson rush buff was just about to come back up, but alas lol.

Also side note, the riven example makes me cry inside because let's be real, she wrecks vlad's ass so fast her regen doesn't matter lol. (Also malphite and singed get so tanky you'll never be able to solo kill them except super early or if they aren't very good).

Cynika1 votes

Let's say for argument sake you have 3k health and 300 AP. That means 180 base, 300 from health spent, and 210 from AP = 690 dmg total against a target with 0 MR. Against a target with 40% MR (not hard to get) you deal 414 dmg. So you spent 300 health, 1-1.5 seconds to channel, and your CD to deal 114 more damage than you spent.

I agree that I exaggerated saying you deal more to yourself than you dealt to them (unless they have 56% or more MR, not uncommon with tanks), but I'm not that far off. If you're close enough to get e off you're close enough for them to be hitting you too. And it's not hard for a squishier target to get out of range or LOS with a beefier teammate.

Also before you mention it, I know it's aoe, but your opponents need to be making pretty poor decisions to allow an immobile medium ranged caster with no cc to get in position for him to hit everyone with it.

invisiblecat12 votes

I mean it does 600 AoE damage! And he doesn't even have to build full ap and this has like a 2 second cd and heals 900 hp on his Q late game

BattleOxe1 votes

Well, I'd say he needs more heal and less cost. Damage is good, it's no that hard to land it, but it's stupid to punish yourself so much for dealing damage

Aazzlano1 votes

Uhh. Karma is the perfect example of a champion who gets completely screwed by minions blocking her Q. You have to be in the perfect position on a particular side of the wave, and hit the Q on a particular part of a specific minion to get it to be AoE. It's much easier on the caster minions since they stay together, but melees are more difficult to deal with than the actual lane opponent. Even a SINGLE melee minion in front of the caster minions will completely block your Q (as in, if you have no minions to distract the melee minion) and it will walk straight towards you, completely blocking you off from being able to land a q on the casters. You literally have to walk completely around it, circle the minions around to get them to clump, then Q them. It's stupid.

Evewynn1 votes

I think it would be appropriate if it pierced through units while fully charged, but also started to slow him even before the full charge. This would give non-mobile champs a way to get out of the area but make the spell feel stronger (especially in team fights) also, using his w while charging would counter act the slow, giving more incentive to using the spell offensively.

option paralysis1 votes

Yesterday I saw dyrus healing for 1200 HP late game with crimson rush Q. I don't understand why would you make his normal q garbage, just so his crimson rush q can be that stupid. And he had that build with sv, warmogs and shit. Idk how is that a rework success but ok.

Just to be sure, you can't refund skins after reworks anymore, right ? 1820 RP is a lot to spend for a skin on a champ I won't play anymore if he stays the same.

BloodyTompon1 votes

Counter-play. Consider the consequences to the enemy if they could NOT avoid it. That's not to say I like the spell ( I actually think Vlad needs a larger rework), but on his current iteration the spells needs to have some loss of reliability.

Cynika1 votes

That's the thing about this rework though, there's SO much counter play built into vlad, that he really has nothing to offer that other champions couldn't do better.

Wolfess1 votes

because with the damage it does, if it hit EVERYTHING in the radius it would be crazy op. you could probably clear almost an entire wave with one E, save except maybe the melee minions where they would have maybe one or two auto atks worth of hp remaining each later on.

in the middle of a teamfight, if you were able to hit all enemy champs in the radius with that low cd and damage, that would be really strong

Roar of Legend3 votes

Ahri Anivia AurelionSol Azir Brand Chogath Caitlyn Corki Ekko Fizz Gragas Heimerdinger Karma Kennen KogMaw Lissandra Lulu Lux Malzahar MissFortune Morgana Orianna Pantheon Riven Ryze Sivir Syndra Talon TwistedFate Twitch Tristana Varus Velkoz Vi Viktor Xerath Yasuo Zed Ziggs Zyra

These are all the champions that have the potential to clear the casters minions with 1 spell and able to auto attack down the rest. Some of these can potentially one shot both melees and casters, leaving the wave with only a canon. Not to mention, many of these can do it from 3 miles away. I do not see much of a problem about Vlad being able to wave clear. As long as it's not insane like Anivia and Oriana, I don't see why spending hp to get rid of minions to be such a terrible thing.

Edit: About the teamfight... have it go through minions and not champions. A lot of newer design have the ability to go through minions (while also dealing damage to them) but stop on first champion hit, Jhin's W for example

Wolfess1 votes

remember that most of those mages are very squishy, which is not the case for vlad. He's a tanky mage who gets FREE gold efficiency towards HP from ap, and also gets ap from bonus hp.

say two champs get item 3116 , one being vlad and another being a different mage/ap using champ. Vlad already will have higher ap and hp even without runes and masteries involved just because he gets more ap from the hp bonus and more hp from the ap from rylais AND has built-in sustain from Q, W, and ult and also his E has built-in slow. He's a tanky sustian mage, they have to cut his power somewhere or else he'll be doing the same thing other mages can do, except doing it tankier.

Roar of Legend1 votes

Not to mention, many of these can do it from 3 miles away.

^all of the squishy one

AurelionSol Chogath Gragas Lissandra Pantheon Riven Ryze Shyvana Singed Vi These are not squishy

ComatosePhoenix1 votes

People do know he doesn't have to slow himself on e. It only slows after 1 second of charging but it is at full charge at 1 seconds. If you are slowed you held the charge too long.

option paralysis1 votes

Just played a mirror lane with Vlad and we just both walked away from one another when either of us had crimson rush coming up. It just felt so bad to play Vlad. This was just a normal game where nobody gives a shit and it's so easy to counterplay that in lane. Just imagine higher elo. Or when we tried to duel, we just stood behind minions and we didn't do jack shit to each other. And come to think that I was looking forward to the rework ...

ComatosePhoenix1 votes

{quoted}

Just played a mirror lane with Vlad and we just both walked away from one another when either of us had crimson rush coming up. It just felt so bad to play Vlad. This was just a normal game where nobody gives a shit and it's so easy to counterplay that in lane. Just imagine higher elo. Or when we tried to duel, we just stood behind minions and we didn't do jack shit to each other. And come to think that I was looking forward to the rework ...

I dont think theres any way to make a vlad v vlad lane interesting. Its like nasus mirrors. Niether champ can do enough damage to counteract eachothers healing.

Pika Fox1 votes

Counterplay; Its a powerful ability when it lands, but it gives the opponent a way to dodge the ability by positioning in their minions properly.

More from Gameplay

More by option paralysis