This may sound weird...but have Kalista and Azir already reached a point where they need reworks?

Lady Hammerlock·Jul 29, 2016·118 votes·7,164 views

I think we can still consider Kalista and Azir pretty early for there lifetime in league,Azir was late season 4 and I'm pretty sure Kalista was early-mid Season 5

But both seem to have hit what seems to be rock bottom,Kalista at a wonderful 46% win rate and Azir with his 41%

The problem?Both of these champions have multiple areas to nerf,but the overall way there kits are designed leaves little room for buffs,Like how much of an unbalanced mess Kalista's passive is or how intoxicating it is to fight an Azir,who bullies you early game,is good mid game,and rips your team apart late game

Kalista has only received 1 buff in her lifetime(I'm quite sure) which was during the marksmen update,while Azir's absurd kit has only received buffs in forms of QOL and bug fixes

so it begs the question

181 Comments

Zero Skill TankJul 29, 2016104 votes

Yes, they do, and everyone except salty chickenmains is aware of that, including some Rioters.

There was a post not so long ago by I think RiotGypsy, who said Azir needs to either get his ranges halved, and be reworked into a battle mage oriented on sick movements with his Shurima Shuffle, or be pushed into long-range hypercarry, but with his mobility halved (Shurima Shuffle removed).

Chamuel85Jul 29, 20167 votes

Yeah, he's too safe for the siege mage style damage he does with the mobility mage abilities and the safety of his ult and his passive (seriously? passive makes a tower? Lol)

Hrm... what should Nasus get? lifesteal? got it! Wukong? Some extra armor near enemies? GOT IT! Azir? How about an entirely new tower? Sweet!

legionnaire99Jul 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, he's too safe for the siege mage style damage he does with the mobility mage abilities and the safety of his ult and his passive (seriously? passive makes a tower? Lol)

Hrm... what should Nasus get? lifesteal? got it! Wukong? Some extra armor near enemies? GOT IT! Azir? How about an entirely new tower? Sweet!

Zac Anivia coome back from the dead Velkoz ohh true damage yay max health burn Hecarim got to go fast

here some more passive you forgot about

CheekynorthJul 29, 20163 votes

Also: Illaoi Tentacles everywhere that heal her Fiora %max health true damage and healing Teemo Invisibility if standing still or in a bush Katarina Cooldowns are dropped if an enemy you hit dies in the next few seconds so (EDIT:) relatively easy pentakills if you aren't CC'd Evelynn Invisibility entirely AurelionSol Literally impossible to hide in any bush Garen Low health, don't worry! You can just stay under tower for a moment and get all your health back (NOTE: exaggeration) Warwick Literal free lifesteal Fiddlesticks MY NAME IS BARRY ALLEN AND I'M THE FASTEST MAN ALIVE Karthus You thought you escaped with low health after killing me? It would be such a shame if I could attack you after my death and then ult you Sion I can kill you after I die Tryndamere That god damn crit chance Yasuo Double crit chance and a free shield Jax You decided to teleport back to lane? I'll only attack the minion you are teleporting to a bunch and then absolutely murder you when you appear

So many ~~idiotic~~ (EDIT) silly passives in this game

RoodToobJul 29, 201617 votes

Idiotic Passives?

I'll go through those you named

Tentacles everywhere that heal her

Thats her entire Kit really, and she's a juggernaut, i don't see whats wrong personally

%max health true damage and healing

She's made to be a hyper carry, percent true dmg is how you do that, also, as a Skirmisher, she should beat tanks, this is how.

Invisibility if standing still or in a bush

This is conditional, has a long time to activate, and if you don't have pink wards and sweepers for this guys shrooms, your doing something wrong (those sweepers work for his passive too)

Cooldowns are dropped if an enemy you hit dies in the next few seconds so easy pentakills

One CC means she is dead, she needs to pick the right time to go in. WAIT THOUGH, IM NOT SAYING SHES HARD TO PLAY (she isn't) but her passive is most of her kit seeing as the rest of it has lower dmg than you would think

Invisibility entirely

Riot knows she's toxic and will rework her, so yea its dumb, they want to fix this.

Tower diving failsafe or living if you take too much damage

How is a shield an idiotic passive? Is Shen's passive dumb then? Hes tanky, this makes sense

Literally impossible to hide in any bush

At the condition of having permanent floating high damage orbs

Low health, don't worry! You can just stay under tower for a moment and get all your health back

Only in the late game, early game its good, but you're exaggerating. Hit him once every 5 to 10 seconds or so and no problem.

UnBEARable regeneration

Again, tank, this passive is fine

Forget the teamfight at top I'll be farming my AP

Your description is inaccurate, he can now farm his AP in the teamfight. Also, hypercarry, this passive seems fine to me

Literal free life steal

Riot are reworking, but sustain on someone I'm assuming they want to be a drain tank is reasonable

Also free life steal

So he can still build tanky and be useful, if he built life steal he'd be much worse

MY NAME IS BARRY ALLEN AND I'M THE FASTEST MAN ALIVE

Extremely useful with ult or w for jungle as well

You thought you escaped with low health after killing me? It would be such a shame if I could attack you after my death and then ult you

Karthus is a Lich. Hes made to go in and die, his kit isn't long range (other than ult) If this was anything else, he'd be the worse champ in game (hes already not good)

I can kill you after I die

Fan service of old ult i suppose ( i don't get this passive either)

That god damn crib chance

Lets be real here, its annoying in lane to be crit by it. But this is not why you hate trynd, its the ult.

Double crit chance and a free shield

Somewhat overloaded i suppose

You decided to teleport back to lane? I'll only attack the minion you are teleporting to a bunch and then absolutely murder you when you appear

If your dumb enough to TP next to a jax late game, you deserve this.

CheekynorthJul 29, 20161 votes

Well I'll edit it to silly passives

In the case of Aurelion, early game stars do so low damage

I don't really know what counts as a hyper carry and actually forgot they existed

With Katarina all the Shunpo jumps with that passive makes it hard to hit the CC and you can lose yourself in a teamfight

For Garen you often have to either get into turret range or be Varus/Jhin and hit them from out of turret range. I didn't count ultimates. And yeah I was exaggerating you have to stay under tower a lot longer for health to come back, but it is really annoying

Nasus does ok with lifesteal (look at Ross's video) but is a better tank

Fiddlesticks's passive I was joking. It is useful but really silly, especially when you think about the fact that he becomes completely still when standing still for about 2 seconds.

Only just remembered that Veigar farms AP from hitting champions because I saw a video of him soloing baron from level 1 with a lot of AP from hitting champions. I honestly forgot and I will edit it.

After the first few, I was just joking around, as you can see with Fiddlesticks

EROTIC RAID BOSSJul 29, 20161 votes

tbh lots of champs have powerful passives, idk whats so ridiculous about azirs

CheekynorthJul 29, 20161 votes

Azir is literally making a new turret. Any work the enemy did to remove a turret is undone entirely Any work you did to take a turret is rewarded with another turret to your side. That's how it's ridiculous

EROTIC RAID BOSSJul 29, 20164 votes

uhh it isn't permanent ??

you sound so dumb

CheekynorthJul 30, 20161 votes

It's still a whole new turret that stops people from splitpushing extremely hard. But when it does die it gives the enemy gold. It needs to be changed because of that

EROTIC RAID BOSSJul 30, 20162 votes

why

its a cool bit of utility that doesn't impact his direct combat power, makes no sense to nerf that over other things. its also smart design since azir is very reliant on a turret for kill pressure early game

its hardly as powerful as passives like volibear, not that you should be comparing pieces of a kit on their own anyway

CheekynorthJul 30, 20161 votes

It makes it harder for the enemies to siege because there's another tower they have to take when pushing, it actually assists enemies because of the gold income, etc. It doesn't need a nerf. It needs a rework

EROTIC RAID BOSSJul 30, 20162 votes

I don't think it needs either lol. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to complain about

Darf RakkiJul 29, 20161 votes

Its also the only passive that I know of that can give the other team free gold.

ForeverLaxxJul 29, 20162 votes

Tentacles give gold when killed. Not as much as an extra turret, but it's there. I'm sure there's more, but I'm not combing through all the passives in the game to find another when Illaoi's immediately came to mind.

Jhin UItd JFKJul 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

coome back from the dead ohh true damage yay max health burn got to go fast

here some more passive you forgot about

Most of those passives actually involve the character's playstyle as a whole.

What does Azir's passive have to do with his playstyle at all? Absolutely nothing. It's a cool passive but it's what gives him that overloaded feel; he doesn't really need it and could be given a passive that synergizes with his kit and doesn't give him so much that he becomes overloaded.

VelasanJul 29, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jhin UItd JFK,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XEREzAEE,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2016-07-29T21:03:13.301+0000)

Most of those passives actually involve the character's playstyle as a whole.

What does Azir's passive have to do with his playstyle at all? Absolutely nothing. It's a cool passive but it's what gives him that overloaded feel; he doesn't really need it and could be given a passive that synergizes with his kit and doesn't give him so much that he becomes overloaded.

Posting a second time to reply to this real quick. While you are mostly correct it does tie into his lore and the tower passive originally was supposed to go with his concept of slowly sieging the enemy base by using W on towers, knocking them down, then putting up your tower to push to the next one.

Without the W tower bombs I'm not so sure it makes sense anymore, but it was part of the original concept. His towers are also a great deal weaker than regular towers and the passive has a long cooldown, on top of which it's a niche use ability that requires a dead tower + time to set it up + enemies within range willing to stay close to it.

So, I'm ok with the tower passive. I miss the CDR to attack speed passive though.

Ashe JungleJul 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, he's too safe for the siege mage style damage he does with the mobility mage abilities and the safety of his ult and his passive (seriously? passive makes a tower? Lol)

Hrm... what should Nasus get? lifesteal? got it! Wukong? Some extra armor near enemies? GOT IT! Azir? How about an entirely new tower? Sweet!

Nasus and Wukong get their passives all the time. Azir gets his passive on the cooldown of a summoner spell.

DeathBurstJul 29, 201616 votes

Down-voted for stating facts, life is tough, mate. Take my upvote.

That being said, what would be the proper course of action for Kalista, in your opinion? The root of her problems is her hop mechanism, but it's also at least half her identity. Can Riot manage to keep something similar but less problematic, as they managed to do with Ryze, keeping this machine-gun aspect without the insane burst and the perma-root that were creating problems?

Zero Skill TankJul 29, 20168 votes

Personally, I'd like to see Kalista's range hit, even below Sivir to say 475, and bringing her damage back to old level or somewhere near it. With that hit she should be able to still hop-kite, but she wouldn't be permanently untouchable.

It's kind of extreme though, and would make her probably heavily abused in lane, but I'd like to at least see it on PBE.

GuardAbuseJul 29, 201610 votes

I actually quite like the idea. People don't seem to realize how big ranges differences can be for adcs/auto attackers. The reason Vayne isn't extremely op is because her range forces her to get in close, but she has the kiting mechanism to deal with it. Sounds like Kalista could use the same.

DeathBurstJul 29, 20161 votes

Keep in mind that they test the most extreme things internally and weed them out before even sending them to the PBE. Maybe they already tried that and it didn't work at all, for all we know, 475 would be the shortest range for all ADC except Graves.

Still, I like your idea.

Zero Skill TankJul 29, 20161 votes

Well, she is the most mobile ADC by far, and even one of the few to possess hard cc abilities. If she is to keep damage output on their level, she needs to be hit somewhere.

Masala ChaiJul 29, 20162 votes

Her hard cc is extremely situational, shrehas to be close to her support, her support has to be alive, and fate's call is in a fairly long cooldown and Essence Reaver would largely be useless on her even if she did have normally scaling autos. Meanwhile, Ashe, Vayne and Draven.

Battlecast SonaJul 29, 20161 votes

this might actually be really good for kalista because if her damage were higher it would reward her for high skill lane plays (stacking E on a creep and Qing it onto a champion, for instance), and her Q is already a longer range ability to help her CS and deal damage from a safe range.

Really Kalista's kit would be fine with a range nerf as long as the damage was brought up to par, imo. Post 6 she'd still be able to all-in the enemy, it would just make her laning appropriately difficult for how much power she would bring with her lategame damage. She could be the late-game hyper-mobile ADC she was meant to be without dominating her lane because of it...

FiddlesOnTheRoofJul 29, 20161 votes

Maybe her ad ratio could scale with her ult level. It's already .9- maybe make it scale from .7-.9 with ult level. Or .8 to 1.0 if that's too much. Or reward her for stacking her e.... Make her autos do less damage and her e do more.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJul 29, 20165 votes

she needs buffs tho not more nerfs

TurquoiseYoshiJul 29, 201617 votes

TBH a lot of Kalista's overall power is actually in her ult. Having hard engage on an ADC is something that's almost completely nonexistent for the rest of the lineup (the only exception is Ashe), and combining that utility with the strong raw mobility that her passive gives makes her pretty insane overall. I think that the rest of her kit can be worked around so that the hop mechanic can still stay.

Just my two cents.

DeathBurstJul 29, 20167 votes

Yeah, her synergy with her support in general, and her ult specifically is the other half of her identity.

To be honest, if I had to choose between the ult and the hop, I'd prefer the keep the ult. It's original, thematically fitting, whereas the hop is just basic orb walking on steroid, and is pretty frustrating to play against.

Mr BoopsmoochJul 30, 20161 votes

{quoted} To be honest, if I had to choose between the ult and the hop, I'd prefer the keep the ult. It's original, thematically fitting, whereas the hop is just basic orb walking on steroid, and is pretty frustrating to play against.

Seems like "thematically fitting" is one of the new "that champion's kit triggers me so I'm gonna talk bullshit". Nice try though.

DeathBurstJul 30, 20162 votes

I could explain in details why pairing with someone and forcefully displacing them is thematically fitting for a Spirit of Vengeance that forces you to give them your soul. But instead, I'll ask: why are the hops more thematically fitting?

It Hertz When IPJul 30, 20164 votes

They're not, other than to try to simulate a spirit by making her difficult to hit. It's the mechanic in her kit that is least core to her thematic identity; Q and E are direct extensions of her spears, W and R are her Oathsworn mechanics, passive is... some weird mobility thing.

theArtifactsJul 29, 20164 votes

{quoted}

TBH a lot of Kalista's overall power is actually in her ult. Having hard engage on an ADC is something that's almost completely nonexistent for the rest of the lineup (the only exception is Ashe), and combining that utility with the strong raw mobility that her passive gives makes her pretty insane overall. I think that the rest of her kit can be worked around so that the hop mechanic can still stay.

Just my two cents.

Although it's a good point..

Hard engage: Ashe Corki Varus Quinn Tristana Kalista

TurquoiseYoshiJul 29, 20165 votes

Corki completely slipped my mind because it's not his ult.

I see Varus as a mid laner more than an ADC, so that's why I forgot him.

Quinn definitely doesn't have hard CC for engage.

And Trist I personally don't count because you would have to be very tricky/reckless to reliably use her ult for anything other than bonus damage/disengage.

Masala ChaiJul 29, 20168 votes

You're horrifyingly wrong, and the main reason that Kalista was Pick/ Ban was brcause of her team utility and not her hops. It's no coincidence that she largely disappeared from competetive play ever since her most recent patch that effectively halved her Soul Mark Damage, made the active largely useless nectar of uptime vs downtime and her ulti cast range and made her base stats dependent on her support.

SidestepJul 29, 20165 votes

I would have to agree with you. Kalista's utility is main reason she is chosen as an adc. Being able to engage whenever you want is very strong.

Also, I think people overlook how strong the sentinels are/were. A good kalista lane is hard to gank when they put multiple sentinels scouting enemy bushes and river.

DeathBurstJul 29, 20162 votes

I may very well be wrong, I'm definitely not an ADC expert. But I do play Support a fair bit, and from what I could see, the big mastery point between high and low ELO Kalistas was how well they were able to hop, not how well they were able to use her kit's utility. And generally, this kind of high discrepancy between high and low ELOs is what makes a champ hard to balance/in need of a rework.

So I don't know for sure, your argument sounds right, but I'm still not 100% convinced.

WheatloafJul 29, 20162 votes

I'm a salty (ex) chickenmain, and I agree he needs some reworking. He's not half the broken he was when he still converted CDR into attack speed, but half of complete and utter bullshit is still pretty bullshit. He's just finally gotten to the point where he's shit unless your mechanics are Challenger.

Battlecast SonaJul 29, 20164 votes

I dislike most of the changes because I played Azir and saw him getting nerfed/played a lot in LCS so I was like "hm, wait for the dust to settle I guess..."

He now feels like GARBAGE to play in comparison to his release. Garbage warmed up. I just don't have the motivation to put in the work for a champion that has been kneecapped so many times... I mean first they take the CDR to ASPD, and that seems fine, and then they nerf his ultimate, okay, fine, utility nerfs are fine, and then the soldier damage changes and...

He just feels really bad to me. I wish they'd rework him - I feel like they've made it so that you HAVE to utilize E and position yourself dangerously to make plays, and I wish they'd gone the other direction and made his shurima shuffle less effective and prioritized the other parts of his kit. His ultimate should be a defensive skill anyway, I don't really know why Riot is favoring this shurima shuffle gameplay aside from LC$BIGPLAYS.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJul 29, 20162 votes

tbh they just made his mid game sooooo bad that he's almost unplayable

but his kit is a lot of fun. so I hope whatever they do they find a way to make him still the fun champ I enjoy while not either pick/ban or garbage depending on numbers

YCitizenSnipsYJul 29, 20161 votes

Lol I don't see why the RiotGypsy quote should mean anything. Have you seen his champions?

Zero Skill TankJul 29, 20162 votes

All of them are at least a class or two better than Azir when it comes to design, maybe save for Ekko, who is pretty much the same level.

YCitizenSnipsYJul 29, 20162 votes

Gnar, Jinx, and Vi are certainly not above Azir levels in design. Gnar basically has everything in his kit people hate. %hp damage, mobility, manaless, 3 hit passive, knock back. Jinx was so overloaded that she remained a top champion pick for years, and was only finally out of the spot light when they completely reworked half the adc's and their itemization. Vi is basically warwick 2.0 and just like him is only considered good when her ult is busted, that's why both of the times she has been directly nerfed since season 4 were to her ult.

Zero Skill TankJul 29, 20164 votes

Gnar basically has everything in his kit people hate. %hp damage, mobility, manaless, 3 hit passive, knock back.

And yet, if there is ever a Gnar-rant thread, players only complain about him being ranged toplaner. As they complain about any ranged toplaner since Teemo.

Jinx was so overloaded that she remained a top champion pick for years, and was only finally out of the spot light when they completely reworked half the adc's and their itemization.

Nothing is wrong with being top champion. Jinx kit is fun to play as, and fun to play against, as she has very clear and pronounced weaknesses.

Vi is basically warwick 2.0 and just like him is only considered good when her ult is busted

Which is still way better than Azir's kit, that is completely cockblocking for any enemy that has no range advantage on him, or an unstoppable dash, and who's only cool part was made not by design, but by accident.

A LiberalJul 29, 201624 votes

No, you are completely right. Kalista was a product of an overloaded kit (She should have really been split into two champions, one who focuses on low damage auto attacks with an activated ability for burst, and another one that focuses on the black oath passives.), while Azir needs to either be a hypermobile battle mage, or an extra long siege mage, he can't be both.

OleandervineJul 29, 201611 votes

I've said the passive on her W, as well as a few other bonuses for her and her Soulbound (think Zeke's Herald) need to replace Martial Poise. With that done, Q should receive a version of Martial Poise that ONLY applies to Q to let her retain some mobility and kiting, except then it would be bound to a cooldown and Mana cost. People keep arguing that Martial Poise is the unique, defining characteristic of her and her kit, and this I disagree with. From a lore and a gameplay standpoint, the teamwork of her and her Soulbound is her most defining feature and should be played up more; Martial Poise was was just tacked on for no reason and doesn't really fit her thematically, so I would be quite happy if it got scrapped.

Battlecast SonaJul 29, 20161 votes

PASSIVE: Kalista can only active Martial Poise when she casts Q or when her oathsworn is near her.

FiddlesOnTheRoofJul 29, 20163 votes

I was thinking of moving martial poise to an ability. Something like kog's w. Give her clear Windows of weakness and strength.

YCitizenSnipsYJul 29, 20161 votes

Martial poise isn't the problem. This whole post is just the same old muh mobility circle jerk. She didn't become garbage tier until they nerfed the soul bound damage on her W and range on her ult. Her complete reliance on another champion is her problem. She is an ADC and is already going to have a support, making her stronger for it is the issue.

OleandervineJul 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Martial poise isn't the problem. This whole post is just the same old muh mobility circle jerk. She didn't become garbage tier until they nerfed the soul bound damage on her W and range on her ult. Her complete reliance on another champion is her problem. She is an ADC and is already going to have a support, making her stronger for it is the issue.

But prior to those nerfs, her AS, AA AD ratio, and hop distance were hit. Those nerfs considerably weakened her. The nerfs to her Soulbond potency made her unviable.