@Riot Vayne does not need more damage

Lady Hammerlock·Jul 13, 2016·90 votes·3,542 views

1 big problem vayne has is that she does damage,to much damage

she trades that for survivability

What she needs in a meta filled with absolute just tons and tons of damage

filled with AOE mages,her counter picks are quite meta right now and bruisers

is just a slight increase on her base HP and HP per level

EDIT:HOLD THE PHONE,its a nerf boys its changed from total AD to bonus AD which means nerfs to her early game,Attack speed builds and a buff to her Heavy AD builds late game

61 Comments

LaserDeathBladeJul 13, 20167 votes

Lol that'd be so cancerous

As you said Vayne already deals absurd damage, her only weakness is dying. Her dealing a little bit more damage isn't going to be the end of the world, but if she's harder to kill then it's just going to be beyond broken.

Faceroll TacticsJul 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

her only weakness is dying.

Items that reduce attack speed.

item 3110 item 3082 item 3143

Champion(s) that reduce attack speed

Nasus Malphite

Champion(s) that disable auto attacking

Amumu Lulu

Champion(s) that disable her mobility

Taliyah Poppy Cassiopeia

EDIT: Heh, I'm getting downvoted for defending a champion that I don't even play

weeaboomerJul 14, 20161 votes

Fuck cass.

ChaosThiefJul 14, 20161 votes

Uhh... you missed a few.

Malphite reduces attack speed,

and Rammus with built in thornmail on W is pretty fun.

Masala ChaiJul 13, 20164 votes

Problem is late game; after Vayne has some 1.7 AS, she begins to lose DPS if she tumbles rather than gains. These buffs are to correct that, and her somewhat struggling state.

These really only impact her late game, as her big power spike item is BoTRK, which doesn't provide much AD in general.

ƒáteJul 13, 20162 votes

You don't lose DPS if you tumble with Vayne. You can animation cancel Vayne's auto before her q to make it faster

Masala ChaiJul 13, 20162 votes

But the only way to completely animation cancel the Q animation is to tumble directly into a wall, one this is impractical. two, the and animation of the tumble is longer than the time between autos. The animation cancel is only relevant early on the game

Doublelift said this on stream a couple years back. Gosu said something pretty recently.

Faceroll TacticsJul 13, 20162 votes

It's a good tradeoff, dodging harmful skillshots at the cost of a little DPS. You're trying to have the cake and eat it too.

WimbledofyJul 13, 20161 votes

The animation cancel only works early game with low attack speed. Late game when you have high attack speed the time it takes to tumble does not really increase dps. The animation cancel on vayne's q is one of the slower ones in the game. It isn't like sivirs W in which it is instant.

Ryzing2DiamondJul 13, 20164 votes

Vayne only does so much damage because of her silver bolts. If her base damage and ratios are raised some, the silver bolts can be nerfed and she'll be able to do her job as an ADC without being able to shred full tanks better than every other champion in the game.

weeaboomerJul 13, 20167 votes

That's what she's built for. Did you cry about pre-rework kog bein a tank shredder before?

Ryzing2DiamondJul 13, 201615 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobi Only Sways,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MwxaY6aE,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2016-07-13T10:20:32.584+0000)

That's what she's built for. Did you cry about pre-rework kog bein a tank shredder before?

When you literally can't build to counter someone, they are unhealthy. That is how it works. There's no counterplay to a fed Vayne.

Hinagiku33Jul 13, 201612 votes

Riot has been very clear on this:

Flat True Damage can be counter-built with health
% True Damage is not meant to be counter-built. The intention is for it to be countered through gameplay rather than building defense and ignoring it.

Vayne is the tank-shredder of the Marksman class and Tanks are intentionally not allowed to just ignore her with armor. They need to respond to her threat immediately, preferably with CC before her 3rd hit which prevents any true damage. The stealth on the other hand...

Fiora is the premier duelist and is stuck in top lane with tanky opponents that previously just bought a item 1031 and stomped her in lane. Her new "Vitals" system is intended to give her the damage to be a relevant threat to Bruisers and Tanks without just turning squishy champs into a fine mist with high base damage to overcome the armor they build. The intended counter-play is to play her mini game, which is kind of annoying but I've seen people wreck me as Fiora once they knew how to play it.

RalanrJul 13, 20161 votes

One great strategy for countering her ult is to hide one of the marks at a wall.

Hinagiku33Jul 13, 20162 votes

Keeping vitals backed against a wall works, but I laned against a Jax that just masterfully destroyed me in lane. It was beautiful even though I was losing.

He constantly kept track of where his vital marks were and were I was moving. He knew exactly how short my Q dash range is and kept minions in between us so I couldn't Q directly to him (I would have hit a minion instead and gotten creep blocked if I even tried). Whenever he had a vital mark that was facing me he backed up behind his minion wave to reset it. Most of the lane phase was us last-hitting minions and dancing around the creep wave - me trying to trade with a vital mark to keep him low enough that he couldn't dive me once he hit level 3, and him just denying me hard with creep block and distance.

I couldn't get a good trade on him all lane phase and as we got closer to level 6 I knew that he was going to win even though we were about tied on CS.

Then his jungler started ganking...

OyddAWqJ5rJul 13, 20162 votes

Just so you know Q prioritizes champions over everything, so putting minions between himself and you was a pointless effort.

Also Q dash goes through minions (so no creep block on the approach).

StaliniumJul 13, 20161 votes

derp nvm

I thought you said counter, not counterplay

Talon is a solid counter to a fed Vayne ;), but not counterplay

Faceroll TacticsJul 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

no counterplay to a fed Vayne.

You do realize there are items that reduce attack speed, right?

item 3110 item 3082 item 3143

NineTailedMysticJul 14, 20161 votes

Counterbuild, not counterplay. Her counterplay would be killing her first, or not getting condemned I guess.

Mandang0Jul 13, 20161 votes

Silver bolts are honestly overrated. Vayne's tumble and the AD steroid from her ult both add tons of damage.

DarkSoldier117Jul 13, 20163 votes

Tumble (Q) bonus physical damage increased to 30/40/50/60/70% from 30/35/40/45/50% of total attack damage.

Where does it say it scales with bonus AD now? The Bonus refers to the bonus physical damage she gains when she uses Tumble. Or am I misreading something? D:

Lady HammerlockJul 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Tumble (Q) bonus physical damage increased to 30/40/50/60/70% from 30/35/40/45/50% of total attack damage.

Where does it say it scales with bonus AD now? The Bonus refers to the bonus physical damage she gains when she uses Tumble. Or am I misreading something? D:

It isn't listed on Surr@20

DarkSoldier117Jul 13, 20161 votes

How do you know then? xD

Lady HammerlockJul 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

How do you know then? xD

A lot of people have said its bonus,and i plan to check Vayne on the PBE tomorrow and see if its true,by the looks of it people are serious

weeaboomerJul 14, 20161 votes

WELL??? WHICH IS IT?

ChaosThiefJul 14, 20161 votes

Tumble (Q) bonus physical damage

hmm... I wonder where...

DengedenJul 13, 20162 votes

Erm, wat? If she wants to build defensively, there are plenty of AD/MR, AD/HP and damage reduction items for her to choose from. Vayne should still be about finding ways to commit without getting blown up, not committing and auto-winning the trade (like Yasuo used to do).

PiVoRxJul 13, 20162 votes

{quoted} she trades that for survivability

Wat? Invisibility, dash, knockback + stun.. Show me adc that has so much self peel..

Lady HammerlockJul 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Wat? Invisibility, dash, knockback + stun.. Show me adc that has so much self peel..

Theres such thing as windows of power Condemn has a long cooldown and her stealth is completely tied to her ult,the stun from condemn isn't the most reliable(considering how buggy it can be) and the dash is the legnth of a protobelt dash which is 300

PiVoRxJul 13, 20161 votes

Still much more than other adcs have, how does Twich/Ashe/MF looks in terms of survivability compared to Vayne?

GodhriJul 13, 20163 votes

Ashe has stun (ult), perma slow and second highest Auto range for adcs. She's Quite safe unless your positioning is poor.

weeaboomerJul 14, 20161 votes

Twitch stealth. and his 300 extra fucking range aoe ult. Ashe, perma slow, and stun ult with 600 range. Mf can easily sit back on her E+R and she has that perma speed boost.

Jeanne fan clubJul 13, 20161 votes

The change she is getting is not a buff. According to the most popular champion.gg build, she would be losing 2 ad on her Q, because it would no longer scale with her total ad, but would now scale with her bonus ad

Lady HammerlockJul 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=9 Tailed Waifu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MwxaY6aE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-07-13T04:00:56.277+0000)

The change she is getting is not a buff. According to the most popular champion.gg build, she would be losing 2 ad on her Q, because it would no longer scale with her total ad, but would now scale with her bonus ad

Wait so is it completely possible that they are forcing Vayne away from her AS builds and trying to encourage her more AD heavy builds what the hell

Jeanne fan clubJul 13, 20162 votes

Well, less silver bolts I guess. Either way I don't see much of a problem with it. It sounds pretty neat to be honest. The build on champion.gg had one attack speed item and boots so Unless vayne is going straight up full ad then I don't really see how this will be a buff.

Toplane FencerJul 13, 20162 votes

Lol. It's still bonus ad. Get your facts straight, please. It's a straight up buff, which Vayne did need.

RavenMagusJul 13, 20162 votes

Bonus ad, a change from total ad.

You might want to think about it for a moment more before you continue believing it's a straight buff.

Lady HammerlockJul 13, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Bonus ad, a change from total ad.

You might want to think about it for a moment more before you continue believing it's a straight buff.

Surr@20 didnt note it,i didn't notice

Also that would mean this is a large nerf to early game Vayne,a nerf to all of her attack speed builds and a buff to her heavy AD builds

HumbreonnJul 13, 20162 votes

Can someone give a source on this? From S@20 it's clear it's a straight buff. Did they miss Total AD ->Bonus AD change?

Vayne

Tumble (Q) bonus physical damage increased to 30/40/50/60/70% from 30/35/40/45/50% of total attack damage.

Toplane FencerJul 14, 20161 votes

People just misread what was posted on S@20. Doesn't matter now, it was reverted.

Toplane FencerJul 14, 20161 votes

You read it wrong it was still total ad. Anyway doesn't matter as it was reverted.

ForgiveColourJul 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

EDIT:HOLD THE PHONE,its a nerf boys its changed from total AD to bonus AD which means nerfs to her early game,Attack speed builds and a buff to her Heavy AD builds late game

Holy Fuck if this is actually true and turns out to be a "buff" with big drawbacks I will literally lose any hope I have left for the balancing team. Meanwhile cancers like Azir Viktor gets a lovetap rofl. Riot nerfed Viktor insta waveclear by 250 gold GG Gutted. AD FAVORITISM GUYS.

Lady HammerlockJul 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Holy Fuck if this is actually true and turns out to be a "buff" with big drawbacks I will literally lose any hope I have left for the balancing team. Meanwhile cancers like gets a lovetap rofl. Riot nerfed insta waveclear by 250 gold GG Gutted. AD FAVORITISM GUYS.

And Caitlyn is allowed to remain...

ForgiveColourJul 13, 20161 votes

Caitlyn is not broken and has a big weakness you guys need to get over it. Azir Viktor Vladimir Ryze is literally the definition of riots favoritism and yet you guys still deny it rofl

WyrmbladeJul 13, 20161 votes

Vlad didn't see anything until his rework. Ryze just got his "We don't know what the fuck to do with him rework" and Azir and Victor have been nerfed like three patches in a row.

I don't have any stake in this argument but I don't think those are being favored

WyrmbladeJul 13, 20161 votes

I think Vayne is fundamentally broken and not in an OP always in the meta sort of way.

An assassin that specializes in killing tanks is a really, really, really dumb idea. I think if she was refocused on killing mages like her lore suggests she would be a lot healthier for the game and I'd be totally okay with making her viable.

Hello I am BirdJul 14, 20161 votes

But she's not an assassin...

She's a low range adc with a VERY short gapcloser.

GigglesOJul 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

she trades that for survivability

Downvoted, between stealth, tumble, and her knockback she has tons of survivability... not just that, but her true damage allows her to treat thornmail as if it doesn't exist.

To balance her they would have to make her deal % current hp damage.

LaçezJul 14, 20161 votes

Here's just an example of Riot buffing champs that are either, OP/ Borderline broken... The same thing happened to gnar, they buffed his hyper even though it was perfectly fine and he was in a healthy position: being able to kite well in and even a bit annoying for melee champs. Then the same just happened with Fiora giving her higher scalings earlier for no reason at all. Now they're looking to buff Vayne... Why?