Hey I think I know why you have a hard time balancing azir

Zardo·May 9, 2018·44 votes·14,161 views

Maybe, just maybe the best way to balance late game hypercarries isn't to give them extreme mobility, self peel, as well as an insanely strong early game against all but . Just saying.

57 Comments

MohawkBirdMay 9, 201824 votes

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LordGeovanniMay 9, 20182 votes

Also high mobility and easy peel hypercarries should never be a thing in my opinion.

This and Ranged carries instead of hyper carries in my opinion.

AirKingNeoMay 10, 20181 votes

well that explains why Cassio and Azir are broken, even Ryze

Late game hypercarries who are lane bullies.

MohawkBirdMay 10, 201817 votes

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DeusVultMay 10, 20183 votes

Cass has no real mobility and short range, so come late game when her team needs her DPS, she has to put herself in danger, of the enemy has to run at her and give her a free ult.

Azir can do all that from almost a whole screen away and if the enemy does engage on him he still has

Ult
Shuffle
Flash
Zhonyas

Azir has all the benefits that the other battlemages have in terms of DPS and dueling, but he has more mobility and much greater range than any of the others.

Its like when Phreak called Zoe a "poke assassin" in her release video. Those things just DON'T go together

TheorexMay 10, 20181 votes

When is the last time you saw a Azir beat a LB, Talon, Fizz, Zed, Syndra. Pre level 6 without the enemy laner completely fucking up?

Because I can tell you. For Azir or Ryze to get a kill on someone. The enemy has to fuck up.

Also, why are the mage hypercarries like you this ask?

Look at ADC's and Supports.

If the mage hypercarries don't have mobility, they get CC'd to hell by the Support.

If they don't have damage why are they even fighting the ADC?

Lane bullies, come on now. You can't seriously think that Azir and Ryze are lane bullies.

Azir and Ryze both have a stupidly weak laning phase. In pro play they work around it very well. But guess what, in casual play. More often than not. My jungler won't come by mid on my 3rd or 4th wave to help me force a enemy back so that they can't get a free shove while I back to get my tear. My jungler won't verbally tell me which side of the map they are on and can use my assistance in controlling.

So yes, watch what a pro does and consider it the average player skill. Thats a smart idea.

DeusVultMay 10, 20184 votes

Azir beats Talon, Fizz and Syndra handily pre-6. Zed and LB are more skill matchups but azir can always play safe and just clear waves.

Fizz can only get a kill if he lands large ult and Azir blows his ult early. Talon just doesnt interact with azir, clears waves and looks for plays bot. Syndra will never get in range of a good azir to kill him in one go, and if she tries to close the distance he can chunk her. Her only play is a gank.

AndevarMay 10, 20184 votes

{quoted}

When is the last time you saw a Azir beat a LB, Talon, Fizz, Zed, Syndra. Pre level 6 without the enemy laner completely fucking up?

Because I can tell you. For Azir or Ryze to get a kill on someone. The enemy has to fuck up.

Also, why are the mage hypercarries like you this ask?

Look at ADC's and Supports.

If the mage hypercarries don't have mobility, they get CC'd to hell by the Support.

If they don't have damage why are they even fighting the ADC?

Lane bullies, come on now. You can't seriously think that Azir and Ryze are lane bullies.

Azir and Ryze both have a stupidly weak laning phase. In pro play they work around it very well. But guess what, in casual play. More often than not. My jungler won't come by mid on my 3rd or 4th wave to help me force a enemy back so that they can't get a free shove while I back to get my tear. My jungler won't verbally tell me which side of the map they are on and can use my assistance in controlling.

So yes, watch what a pro does and consider it the average player skill. Thats a smart idea.

You realize Azir is essentially the perfect counter to melee mid lane champs like Talon or Akali right?

You literally cannot get close to your CS without being poked to death whilst you waste Mana trying to get 1 CS.

I don't know how you can consider Azir as having a "stupidly weak laning phase" when that's one of the biggest problems of Azir, having a stupidly OVERPOWERED laning phase.

AirKingNeoMay 11, 20181 votes

If the mage hypercarries don't have mobility, they get CC'd to hell by the Support.

Mage hypercarries aren't melee.

So yes, watch what a pro does and consider it the average player skill. Thats a smart idea.

You don't balance competitive games (Darwinism) around average people.

TheorexMay 11, 20181 votes

You also don't balance it around a condition that 99.99999% of players don't get to achieve. Tell me when was the last time you use voice comms in a ranked game to communicate with your team mates?

If we got voice comms and the same style of playing as the pros do. Then you have an arguement. But we don't. This isn't like Starcraft where, everything is the same at all levels and the only difference is individual skill. This has communication in it, this has moving parts and other human beings.

Therefore you can't only balance around .0000001% of the player base that has a different condition of playing than the majority of the playerbase.

PeachsPropertyMay 10, 20182 votes

thing with trist is her "escape/dive" can be messed with. it has a slight cast time and stuff like trundles pillar and stuns shaft it from taking her mroe than a mm from cast spot.

MohawkBirdMay 10, 20189 votes

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warpenguin555May 10, 20182 votes

I've had a Trist get away from my Skarner ult before with W. It was during the start of the animation so I didn't lose my cooldown but still...

UpDownLeftRightABMay 10, 20187 votes

Two of those offenders were designed with clear weaknesses (Pink wards, Low range early games), they had troubles with game pacing (4-5 items needed) and point and click CC (Old Sion and old Taric).
Since their weaknesses have been removed (No point and click stuns, no pink wards, 2 items vs 5 items), you have a good point.

TheorexMay 10, 20182 votes

Okay, so tell me why aren't you in diamond with Azir, Ryze, Vayne, Tristana?

Since they are clearly overpowered.

Since they clearly have a fuck ton of mobility and are easily able to move around the battlefield.

Also if they were so overpowered why do the mages of that group have the shittiest win rates in solo queue but yet have a high play rate in competitive?

If you are going to use the definition of pro play is all that matters, then consider the following.

Akali, Shaco, Wukong, Talon, Garen, Annie, Lux, Aatrox, and Twitch would all have to be buffed. Think about that. Akali is already oppressive enough as it is. Shaco is already an annoyance as he is. Wukong already can one shot people with his only build. Talon already gets 25% of First Bloods in games that he is in. Garen is actually just bad. Lux is always annoying. Aatrox is bad. Twitch is already stupidly strong.

Imagine a game where everything was only balanced around pro play. So that all champions in pro play had a 50% win rate. And all were played.

Now apply that to something like Bronze. Someone with a very basic kit in bronze would be over powered af.

While champions with hard kits would have negative win rates.

So yes. They are overboard.

MohawkBirdMay 10, 20182 votes

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TheorexMay 11, 20182 votes

I shall, agree. Majority of people on the boards normally go to bash Azir and Ryze. Without having ever really played the champion and attempt to climb with then.

I won't be taking back what I said, but I will agree that I did send this to something I misinterpreted.

Z3SleeperMay 10, 20181 votes

I'm fine with Vayne cuz she is close-ish ranged and mostly in-fight mobility. Not as hard to catch as the other 2.

VerxintMay 10, 20182 votes

High mobility and self peel hypercarries are fine IMO if they come online way late in the game, not at 2 or 3 items. They should be the ultimate late game monsters

UltîmaMay 10, 20181 votes

I appreciate the point you're making, but can we take a step back for a moment? Saying that a character like Vayne is hypermobile and in the same category as Azir is nothing short of hyperbolic. She has never been nearly the same kind of unbalanceable mess as Azir even at her strongest. Vayne's experienced periods where she's been very overtuned but she's never presented the same kind of balance dilemma's as Shurima's emperor lol

MohawkBirdMay 10, 20181 votes

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UltîmaMay 11, 20181 votes

... and again, on a completely different scale. Vayne has a very short range dash compared to Azir's potentially screen-wide mobility, and there is no way her single-target E is nearly as powerful as Azir's wall-shove, especially in combination with his aforementioned mobility tool. Vayne's skirmishing tools are fantastic, but she's famously easy to pick-off in teamfights due to her average range and complete inability to do anything outside of her auto-attack range. Saying "mobility" and "peel" in a vacuum doesn't really paint a clear picture of a champion's actual power, and the examples you've picked are actually a pretty good illustration as to why.

MohawkBirdMay 11, 20181 votes

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UltîmaMay 11, 20181 votes

Argument without context is also pretty meaningless, especially considering we're talking about game design but whatever floats your boat I guess.

KhristophorosMay 9, 201812 votes

The only thing that's stupid about Azir is how low counterplay + long range his harass is. As long as it's basically impossible to dodge his poke he'll be impossible to balance.

Chembaron YamadaMay 9, 20189 votes

This. Not just his poke, his zoning in general is so extremely powerful.

There are other champions with similar effects like Heimerdinger with his turrets or Illaoi and her tentacles. But you can at least do something against their zoning, you can interact by destroying these.

Since Azirs soldiers are untargetable, there is nothing you can do against him zoning you away, except waiting for the soldiers to expire.

LordGeovanniMay 9, 20185 votes

Illaoi's tentecles are so slow you can dodge them level 1 without boots what is there to fear about them. when most champions get boots adcs get item 3086 items and mages get item 3113

Chembaron YamadaMay 9, 20184 votes

Yep, this is the point. These mechanics have counterplay. Destroying them is just one, but there are others.

Like you mentioned, you can dodge Illaois tentacles. Or you can use displacement spells to move Heimerdingers turrets (one of the reasons why Syndra counters him really hard).

There is nothing like that for Azir. He gets the same zoning and area of control like them and there is nothing you can do about that except waiting for it to end.

Subject 5May 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Yep, this is the point. These mechanics have counterplay. Destroying them is just one, but there are others.

Like you mentioned, you can dodge Illaois tentacles. Or you can use displacement spells to move Heimerdingers turrets (one of the reasons why Syndra counters him really hard).

There is nothing like that for Azir. He gets the same zoning and area of control like them and there is nothing you can do about that except waiting for it to end.

It'd be like if Illaoi could choose where her tentacles were, and they recharged rather quickly, doubled up with the fact that they can't be touched and attack at the speed of her ultimates effect to become undodgeable and she can use her E to dash to them to get away; which gives her a shield by the way.

PhantomGGMay 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This. Not just his poke, his zoning in general is so extremely powerful.

There are other champions with similar effects like Heimerdinger with his turrets or Illaoi and her tentacles. But you can at least do something against their zoning, you can interact by destroying these.

Since Azirs soldiers are untargetable, there is nothing you can do against him zoning you away, except waiting for the soldiers to expire.

and than whenever he's buffed champions that are suppose to counter him, no longer counter him, for they can't even get close enough to him to even scratch him

Snowman ArcMay 10, 20181 votes

Well, it was far more unbalanced last season when he had even longer ranges. Right now, at least he gets into a somewhat dangerous zone in order to get some good poke.

Sire HippingtonMay 9, 20186 votes

would also help if hypercarry backline dps woudn't be able to engage and all-in other squishys from a screen away and even initiate teamfights...while aslo resurecting towers to cover his back Azir has just way to much stuff going on for him, so once a player(and his team) actually knows what he does with Azir, he gets rather disgusting.

Risen29May 10, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XEGR6LPg,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-05-09T23:59:30.101+0000)

would also help if hypercarry backline dps woudn't be able to engage and all-in other squishys from a screen away and even initiate teamfights...while aslo resurecting towers to cover his back Azir has just way to much stuff going on for him, so once a player(and his team) actually knows what he does with Azir, he gets rather disgusting.

Azirs problem is not that has too much going on, but that it goes in conflicting directions.

Is he a static zone control and poke mage? Or is he a hyper aggresssive engage mage who dives at the enemy?

He needs to be refocused on his core thematic and design goal: fighting from a distance by commanding other things to fight for him. He had no business diving into a fight himself.

His soldiers, wall, and turret all fit this goal. Dashing himself is unecessary and warps his kit to perform in ways that were not part of his core design. Indeed, if you remove his dash you will suddenly find he needs his turret and wall to survive because he is now so positional.

Risen29May 10, 20185 votes

As someone who liked playing Azir (he was one of my first favorite champions), but got tired of all the nerfing and stopped playing him, I think his design is flawed.

He doesn't need the ability to dash to his soldiers. He's about area control and keeping his distance. Putting in a dash just overblows his kit with unnecessary mobility. It thematically makes no sense with the rest of his kit.

His wall is fine though. That fits with the overall thematic of a control mage who wants to keep you away from him and restrict your movement. He has a turret to hide under and deter you from wanting to close the distance to him. He has a wall to keep you away or block off his flank from attack. He lets his soldiers fight for him at a distance. He moves his soldiers towards the enemy so he doesn't have to. All of this makes perfect sense, is fun, and works together well as a positional area control mage who wants to be in control of the battlefield space.

But why would someone with a kit like that want to actually dash TOWARDS the enemy and land in melee range? It makes absolutely no sense. Everything about him is about staying back and letting his soldiers fight for him. Why does he alternate between a playstyle of keep away poke mage, and hyper-aggressive engage-mage? It makes no sense thematically, and gameplay wise it just makes him able to do too much too well.

If they made this one change, removing his dash and replacing it with something else more suited to area control and zoning, then Azir would still be loads of fun, but he wouldn't have to be dumpstered into the ground with nerfs to prevent him from being overpowered in LCS.

YuGiHoMay 10, 20181 votes

omg if only azir was immobile he would be so much easier to play vs. him being a mobile dps mage with zone control and hard cc that can be used to initiate or disengage a fight is allot for anyone to deal with without a jungler to help.

SpecterVonBarenMay 10, 20182 votes

Essentially his problem is that he's supposed to be a King but instead he's a Queen. He's supposed to be the most important piece that you need to keep safe in order to win the game but instead they made him this hyper mobile jack of all trades.

Reduce his Q damage, lower its cooldown, completely change his E, increase the range of his W. Make him a long range soldier commander not a Mage Lee Sin.

Risen29May 10, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Essentially his problem is that he's supposed to be a King but instead he's a Queen. He's supposed to be the most important piece that you need to keep safe in order to win the game but instead they made him this hyper mobile jack of all trades.

Reduce his Q damage, lower its cooldown, completely change his E, increase the range of his W. Make him a long range soldier commander not a Mage Lee Sin.

Exactly. He's suppose to be the king protected by soldiers dashing out in front, a wall of soldiers at his side, and a turret at his back. He doesn't fight - he commands those who do. Never under any circumstances should his design be encouraging him to dive right into the middle of the enemy team, especially when he doesn't even auto attack for himself once he's there. Just nonsense from a design perspective.

I would play Azir again if they removed his E and increased his control range. He would be tons of fun to be a genuine area control/commander type champion again.

I wonder if they originally intended for his E to be an escape? Or a way to juke away from the enemy when they got nearby? Maybe they didn't realize all the ways it would be used offensively. I don't even think he needs an escape if you increase his range on soldier control.

You could replace his E with something more fitting to an immobile champion who needs a reactive defensive move - Something like calling all soldiers to your position, shielding you based on the number of soldiers you summon near you, and possibly inflicting a knockback on the enemy. If soldiers could be made the bodyblock enemies for a brief time after it's activation, that would also give him more defensive positional options in the absense of a dash.

Of course all that could very well be too powerful on Azir on top of his wall, but it's just an example of the kinds of things you could have done for Azir rather than give him a dash. Things that would have fit with and worked in sync with his thematic design, rather than directly go against it.

SpecterVonBarenMay 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

He's suppose to be the king protected by soldiers dashing out in front, a wall of soldiers at his side, and a turret at his back. He doesn't fight - he commands those who do.

That's a perfect phrase to describe how Azir should be.

Risen29May 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

That's a perfect phrase to describe how Azir should be.

It's also why I originally loved playing him. I love those kinds of characters in games.

But eventually they started nerfing every aspect that made him good as a rear line commander in order to make him manageable with all the mobility he has access to.

I would rather they strip him of his mobility and allow the full power of his commander side to re-emerge.

Teridax68May 10, 20182 votes

I think the problem with a lot of hypercarries in League is that their core design is that of a lane bully. Azir, for example, is a champion who can put himself at very little risk in lane, so even if you take out a lot of raw power on him, he can still outrange and outpace most opponents mid. Similarly, in top lane Gangplank frequently gets too strong too early due to his own poke and get-out-of-jail-free card. Instead of forcing a carry curve onto certain champions, it might therefore be better to instead adjust their scaling around their natural power progression, which in this case should probably mean reversing Azir's curve and making him a lane bully that falls off. If Azir still has too strong a late-game due to his soldiers' pushing power, then the champion simply has too many tools overall, and needs a rework (which should likely happen anyway at this point, due to his lack of real interactivity).

Colgate GatorMay 10, 20182 votes

My opinion a non-Azir player is that he'd be easier to manage and balance if his soldier behaved like every other pet in the game and could be killed off.

But hey, maybe I just hate the birdman, what do I know.

LauchmelderMay 10, 20181 votes

The easiest fix would be to give him a different E. Make the Shurima Shuffle impossible the way it is now and rip away his mobility and he has a fair chance at being balanced.

remakoroMay 9, 20181 votes

He has reliable dmg on par with ADC. Not that hard hitting but with AOE. And on top of that he can be self sufficient. So yea. He is kinda busted in his design.

LordGeovanniMay 9, 20188 votes

Its harder hitting than adcs because of adcs. Because adcs exist you cant spare more than one magic resist item even as a full tank which makes azir a great option

BestPudgeNAMay 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Maybe, just maybe the best way to balance late game hypercarries isn't to give them extreme mobility, self peel, as well as an insanely strong early game against all but . Just saying.

Azir is hard to balance because he is the only Ranged Champ outside of Marksman that has 3 scaling factors AP, AS and CDR.

Risen29May 11, 20181 votes

There's nothing wrong in theory with balancing a game around what the top if capable of achieving. Because they are playing the game the way it's meant to be played to the highest degree. In fact, it makes the most sense to balance around them. Balancing around subpar players is when you start to run into problems with unnecessary nerfs, rewarding laziness rather than adaptation and innovation.

My problem with Azir's balancing is not that he was balanced around pro play, but that they made a fundamental design flaw in giving him unnecessary mobility which forces them to gut the area control/poke aspects of him in order to make the mobility aspect less overpowered.

The smarter thing to do would have been to re-evaluate the champions design and realize mobility is unnecessary, and should be removed rather than balanced around.