With worlds ended, there is no more excuses left for this meta.

AirKingNeo··5 votes·562 views

There's no excuse of Proplay needing to practice anymore. Hell, you can even look at world's statistics alone and just to see the issues. Kalista sitting at 100% banrate. Gnar and Xayah having some of the highest pick/ban rates throughout worlds is also pretty insane.

These past few years have lead people to 3 possible conclusions, and I think this recent meta was a real eye opener. Either Riot's balance team is: A) bad enough at their job that the game has gotten this terrible, B) purposefully making the meta this bad, or C) not caring and just make changes without concern at all. I don't actually care which happens to just be it because the fact remains this meta is by far the worst. I don't know if Riot can identity the problems since they haven't yet offered even a solution. I'll give the short list of what needs to be changed and the long list with explanation.

item 3031 item 3072 item 3812 item 3087 item 3036 (item 3086 and it's upgrades) item 3508 item 3006 Xayah Twitch Kalista item 3190 item 3107 item 3109 (item 3114 Heal/Shield Power) item 3301/item 3096 Rakan Lulu item 3194 item 3068 item 3193 item 3076 item 3075 Chogath Maokai item 3022 item 3071 item 3053 Fiora

Ok, you've seen the short version, and now you're probably thinking, "Why isn't X there?" Tristana, for example, was not listed because Tristana wasn't an issue before this meta and most likely became an issue because of certain items (Shiv) and good in the meta (broken support items protecting her, tanks needing to be cut down). Of course not everything on the list is to be nerfed, such as Sunfire who is getting some, but not huge, buffs. Why is an item like Bloodthirster on here? Simply just for reverse powercreep.

item 3031 -5 AD, Critical damage modifier reduced by 15% (50% -> 35%) Aside from being a bit overstat, ADCs just need a huge knockdown in their Crit build's damage. No one wants to go back to high cost powerspikes to where you feel like garbage before hand and overpowered afterwards.

item 3072 -5 AD Reverse powercreep; reverting unnecessary buff.

item 3812 -5 AD, Damage converted to a DoT reduced to 20%. AD reduction for the same reason, conversion reduced because it gives too much survivability to certain champions (Draven, Riven), and people probably don't want to go back to that.

item 3087 Passive damage reduced by 10-20 (based on level), bonus damage against minions reduced to +45% Usually when Shiv gets nerfed, it gets one of it's aspects nerfed too hard and therefore becomes useless. Instead of repeating that, just hit both, but not as hard, and keep the item viable. I don't think anyone finds Tristana oneshotting a minion wave with Shiv+IE+her passive very interactive or interesting, especially in the mid game.

item 3094 + item 3087 Interaction removed, having one of the passives disables the other. The world has seen this twice now. They're made to be balanced on having either, not both.

item 3036 Health difference maximum doubled (to 2000 health difference), maximum bonus damage reduced to 15% (0.75% damage per every 100 health difference). So basically this item makes ADCs super melt tanks to build RoA, any bruiser near instantly, and is probably the reason tanks need an item as broken as Stoneplate. We're fixing that by making it deal less damage overall, and also require the target to be a lot larger (think Cho'Gath).

item 3086 +100 Gold cost item 3094 item 3087 item 3085 item 3046 +100 gold cost Basically some reverse powercreep and also to put ADC powerspikes a bit in line. Would hit PD harder (remember Lucian?), but this is about fixing the current meta and not every issue after.

item 3508 -5 AD, Cooldown reduction changed to give 20% on the spot. I dislike items that give all your essentials stats for a cheap cost, but I also hate that this item isn't good for Caster ADCs like Lucian, but instead better for hypercarries who spam spells like Xayah and Sivir. Currently it gives ~4000 gold in stats, I think that's too much.

item 3006 -5% attack speed Anyone remember when they nerfed Ninja Tabi from 12% reduction to 10% (good change)? I feel like they forget to also nerf ADC's boots to keep even power between them and reduce powercreep, but they didn't make that change. Now they should.

Xayah W auto attack bonus damage reduced to 12%, E critical damage ratio cut in half, R places down 4 feathers instead of 8. There's a lot about this champion that could be nerfed, but given all the multiple hits to ADCs (not large hits to one thing because those create issues and polarization), I'm inclined to give a little leeway. But the moment I see if she's still out of hand, I'm calling for nerfs. W nerf is because 20% bonus damage AFTER CRIT is huge. E nukes too much. R -> E combo is just too good.

Twitch W changed to apply 2 stacks of passive on landing the ability, no longer stacks passive over time. Many, and probably a lot, think this isn't enough. If it isn't nerf him again, but I think given every other AD item's change, this might be enough. What is the significance of this change anyways? It massively reduces his waveclear early game, meaning he can't really win lane anymore, and also reducing zoning potential. This isn't a complete revert from his mini-update since the slow still persists. I think Twitch is an issue right now because he gets to free pass the early game and then use overtunned ADC items to kill people as if he was fed.

Kalista E no longer applies to epic monsters. The biggest pro play part of Kalista is her insane objective control. Instead of dodging the issue, just solve it and never have to deal or dance around it again.

item 3190 Health ratio removed. +3 shield per level. Melee only. Not sure why Riot gave the item an HP ratio and didn't consider tanks abusing it, but it happened. Before the HP ratio, the item already needed nerfs. The +3 per level isn't much, but it is probably just enough to keep the item viable. Why melee only? Enchanters are supposed to be squishy, hence why they have shield/heals, plus they have Redemption for an AoE item.

item 3107 Heal/Shield power is now only 50% more effective from 200% more effective. Seriously? An item with so much range and game changing that it can turn the tide of a skirmish is really insane. I don't expect tanks to abuse it, but if they do, make it ranged only if needed.

item 3114 Heal/Shield power reduced to 6% item 3504 item 3107 Heal/Shield power reduced to 8% item 3222 Heal/Shield power reduced to 16% The way I see it, shield stacking never became an issue until someone introduced this stat. Now, for whatever reason, when adding this stat to these items, no one thought to compensatively nerf the items in some way to make sure it wasn't just a huge addition of powercreep. We don't need anything that counters shields either; we already know Executioner's Calling is a huge issue with balance, so why repeat the mistake?

item 3301 item 3096 item 3069 item 2302 Gold generation from picking up golden coins reduced. Again, this is obvious powercreep and that needs to be reduced.

Rakan Ultimate charm duration reduced to 1 second at all ranks, bonus speed for hit first champion reduced to 130% (from 150%). So if anyone watched worlds, you'd realize that maybe Rakan shouldn't be allowed to have 2.5 seconds of undodgable AoE CC.

Lulu Polymorph duration reduced to 0.90/1.05/1.20/1.35/1.50 from 1.25 to bullshit (2.25). Do I need to explain this one? Maybe Lulu shouldn't be able to CC a target for 30% of their time fighting, plus shield someone.

item 3194 Damage reduction reduced to 15%, Cooldown reduction removed, +50 health. There's no reason why this item needs to be as good as it is. If anything, it's forcing DPS mages to be too good just to be effective against tanks. Cooldown reduction is completely out of place and also powercreeping. 50 HP is just compensation.

item 3068 Damage radius reverted, damage increased vs champions. Just slight compensation for tanks, as their very broken items are getting the hits they deserve.

item 3193 Cost increased by 600 (3100 total cost), HP when near 3 enemies reduced to 80% health, active duration reduced to 3 seconds, and all health gained by this item's active now counts as base health. Fair nerfs to the item and also fixing that Cho'Gath issue.

item 3076 Reflect damage reduced by 5 (15 -> 10), Grievous Wounds now only applies against ranged champions. If this is supposed to be an answer for tanks against ADCs drain tanking them, then why does it auto win against bruisers?

item 3075 Flat reflect damage reduced to 15, deals +10 more reflect damage against ranged champions, Grievous Wounds now only applies against ranged champions. Basically the same reason as Bramble Vest.

Chogath E slow reduced to 15/20/25/30/35%. Passive healing reduced to 15-70. Cho'Gath permaslowing with his E to out-trade opponents is already a huge issue. Cho'Gath perma healing with his passive to avoid his supposed-to-be bad laning phase is also unhealthy, since he gets to be about 5000+ health. Stoneplate was already hit, so I'm hoping the ult is fine.

Maokai Passive healing changed to missing health. Q damage reduced to 70/110/150/190/230. So Maokai has been meta, top tier for almost 2 years straight. Even with the tank update, he was already good and then Riot buffed his passive. As we're seeing, Maokai is too strong. You can't trade with him because of his passive and high Q damage making him near immune to trades.

item 3022 Melee only So I bet someone was wondering why I never mentioned Kog'Maw. Shields are nerfed, frontlines for him are nerfed. Only one last thing that could indirectly hurt him, stopping his abuse of Mallet. Also neither should Gnar be able to abuse Mallet.

item 3071 Armor pen increased to 6% per stack (30% total), passive now disables/cannot exist with "Last Whisper". Now bruisers can hurt tanks, but also Lucian can't stack this with LDR/Mortal Reminder and not actually fall off for using an early game build.

item 3053 Damage threshold reduced to 400-1400 from 400-1800. I'd like to take the time just to say this item never actives at all. Please fix that.

Fiora W can no longer stun, W attack speed slow reduced to 35%, Ultimate no longer grants bonus speed while near the marked target, Q AD ratio reduced to to 60/75/90/105/115% (bonus AD). Fiora had this all coming for a while. With Bramble nerfed, she can get the hits she deserves. She's a late game champion, why she has such a good early game is a mystery to me. Every skirmisher has a good defensive ability, but Fiora is the only one who has a stun attached to it. Why? Not sure. Free extra speed on ult lets her proc it for free and without much counterplay.

12 Comments

Salson2 votes

Wait, why are you complaining about Fiora? Kayle shits on her.

Other than that:

-Crit items are overtuned, needs nothing major, just small number nerfs or priecc increased.

-Thornmail and Sunfire should be revorked into active items.

-BC should have 10 stacks with 3% armor reduction, with melee champs doing 2 stacks per damage instance.

AirKingNeo3 votes

Because I want to play champions who aren't Kayle without force banning Fiora, plus I'm not being bias and just saying she's fine just because I can beat her with my champion.

You could make that change to Cleaver, but let's be simply first. That change only makes it good on Ashe.

Salson1 votes

Never really understood the part where someone hates Fiora, another guy hates Yasuo, someone else hates Riven...

I mean Singed has a 54% winrate, you'd think he needs nerfs more.

Weiner the Pooh1 votes

Lol those Fiora changes. Have you ever played Fiora? Trying to fight without the ult ms is miserable. Without it she is clunky and slow. Oh but muh 2 second Q. Yeah it's not enough. You can't complete your ult, especially not in a team fight. And her stun is completely fine, it's completely situational and it can always be dodged. Fiora has not had it coming, she has had 50% to sub 50% winrate for months, and only peaked at 51% in which case she was nerfed and had a 47% win rate until they unnerfed her. She hasn't had anything coming, she's fine, this is a personal gripe.

AirKingNeo1 votes

You still get movement for procing vitals, just not passively.

Iota Theta1 votes

Just a few concerns:

Locket: Designed to be a tank support item, so the health ratio should stay. Besides, you made Stoneplate base health, so the super Locket is gone already as well.

Gargoyle Stoneplate: I wouldn’t mind the increase being base health, but why 80%? That doesn’t really change anything. Cho’gath was the only real problem child with it because of his ult. No other tank has been a serious problem with it because it also reduces all their damage.

Bramble Vest/Thornmail:

Reflect damage reduced by 5 (15 -> 10), Grievous Wounds now only applies against ranged champions. If this is supposed to be an answer for tanks against ADCs drain tanking them, then why does it auto win against bruisers?

Flat reflect damage reduced to 15, deals +10 more reflect damage against ranged champions, Grievous Wounds now only applies against ranged champions. Basically the same reason as Bramble Vest.

Why? Why only against ranged? That goes against the purpose of the effect, countering sustain. There was no way to counter Swain, Aatrox, Darius, or Trundle healing, and for the ones like Trundle or Irelia, once they purchase lifesteal there is no stopping them and they basically autowin because they just heal up any damage dealt.

Besides, have you seen the one LCS match of a Trundle vs a Maokai? Even with Bramble Vest, Maokai couldn’t effectively stop Trundle from taking towers. It was to the point that Trundle just flat out ignored Maokai and Maokai could do nothing.

Maokai:

Passive healing changed to missing health. Q damage reduced to 70/110/150/190/230. So Maokai has been meta, top tier for almost 2 years straight. Even with the tank update, he was already good and then Riot buffed his passive. As we're seeing, Maokai is too strong. You can't trade with him because of his passive and high Q damage making him near immune to trades.

That’s less an issue with his passive and more a problem with his CDs. His passive is only strong when hit by casters, which was the entire purpose of the change. But still, he’s better than he was with his AoE Damage Reduction ult.

Black Cleaver:

Armor pen increased to 6% per stack (30% total), passive now disables/cannot exist with "Last Whisper". Now bruisers can hurt tanks, but also Lucian can't stack this with LDR/Mortal Reminder and not actually fall off for using an early game build.

This was nerfed for a reason. Namely Lucian, and it wasn’t because of how well it worked with Last Whisper. In fact, if I recall correctly, he mostly built Cleaver into BotRK. He also wasn’t the only Cleaver abuser, but he was the poster child. Besides, since when can bruisers not hurt tanks with the current armor shred?

Sterak’s Gage: I don’t mind the reduced threshold, more a comment that I don’t understand why it’s not proccing for y’all. It has procced for me in every match I have bought it.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Gargoyle Stoneplate: I wouldn’t mind the increase being base health, but why 80%? That doesn’t really change anything. Cho’gath was the only real problem child with it because of his ult. No other tank has been a serious problem with it because it also reduces all their damage.

The issue isn't related to self damage reduction. The issue is that it gives 50% damage reduction for 4 seconds. Aside from being too cheap, I changed the active to 40% damage reduction for 3 seconds. It's basically way too good of an item.

Locket: Designed to be a tank support item, so the health ratio should stay. Besides, you made Stoneplate base health, so the super Locket is gone already as well.

Tanks shouldn't be abusing it because they can buy Warmogs. Locket is currently ~430 at level 18 without HP ratio, ~480 @18 with my buff. Might need slightly more compensation, but the HP ratio is too dumb.

Why? Why only against ranged? That goes against the purpose of the effect, countering sustain.

The item was made to stop draintanking ADCs. The item shouldn't let tanks auto win vs bruisers. Tanks are supposed to have a weak laning phase because they're better late game.

This was nerfed for a reason. Namely Lucian, and it wasn’t because of how well it worked with Last Whisper. In fact, if I recall correctly, he mostly built Cleaver into BotRK. He also wasn’t the only Cleaver abuser, but he was the poster child. Besides, since when can bruisers not hurt tanks with the current armor shred?

You should try playing any Cleaver bruiser not named Kayn and try damaging a tank. Not very good.

Sterak’s Gage: I don’t mind the reduced threshold, more a comment that I don’t understand why it’s not proccing for y’all. It has procced for me in every match I have bought it.

Context: https://clips.twitch.tv/HotShinyPigHotPokket

Iota Theta1 votes

First off, and minor detail..replied twice? Website glitch?

{quoted}

The issue isn't related to self damage reduction. The issue is that it gives 50% damage reduction for 4 seconds. Aside from being too cheap, I changed the active to 40% damage reduction for 3 seconds. It's basically way too good of an item.

It’s a late game item for tanks when tanks didn’t have a core item like other classes. ADCs have IE, most Juggernauts make use of Cleaver, Mages ave Morello. It’s an item that requires you actually build some other items before it actually becomes useful. It’s also not a lane item, it’s a teamfight item, and it’s actually incredibly pathetic if you end up in a 1v1, so I’m failing to see how it’s too strong. It’s one window of massive tankiness in the middle of a teamfight, but for reduced damage. You can almost ignore certain champs during that time period.

It’s also not straight damage reduction, but extra health, so Fiora, Vayne, anyone with %max hp damage will still chunk it out a lot.

Tanks shouldn't be abusing it because they can buy Warmogs. Locket is currently ~430 at level 18 without HP ratio, ~480 @18 with my buff. Might need slightly more compensation, but the HP ratio is too dumb.

I’m not seeing how that’s an issue. What do you mean “shouldn’t be abusing it because they can buy Warmogs.” Most tank supports can’t get Warmogs unless they run Ancient Coin, and they are the ones the change was directed toward (tank supports now have three tank support items, Face of the Mountain, Locket, and Knight’s Vow).

If a tank is willing to sacrifice buying a different item for potentially better stats so it can support it’s team, more power to them. Isn’t build diversity supposed to be a good thing? A tank can buy an item like Locket for the shield, or they can buy something like Adaptive+Sunfire for more armor, although 5 less MR, along with the passives. It really depends on the tank and the team comps. Locket fits Warden tanks better than it fits Vanguard tanks, for example, since Vanguards can potentially end up far enough from the carries for the shield to hit them, which then defeats the purpose.

The item was made to stop draintanking ADCs. The item shouldn't let tanks auto win vs bruisers. Tanks are supposed to have a weak laning phase because they're better late game.

First, it was to counter all sustain. It did fine damaging ADCs for attacking the wearing before, but so many lifesteal/sustain champs could just heal off tanks. Not just marksmen, but all ADCs (yes, skirmishers are considered ADCs, because they are attack damage carries). Try facing a Fiora, Aatrox, Trundle, Darius, Olaf, Irelia, etc, without GW and see what happens. It is not an auto win against those champs. Why? Because the item relies on the enemy actually deciding to attack you. Wanna know how to beat it? Push the wave, take the tower, or leave lane and gank somewhere else. You don’t have to aa the champ with a Bramble Vest in lane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=pEYSViqUx2c

See around the 37 minute mark. Despite C9 losing, watch how much Impact on Trundle can just ignore Lourlo’s Maokai while taking the turret. The only reason he had to back off was he got caught under the turret with no minions. Didn’t have to really attack Maokai at all to take that tower. That is where Bramble and Thornmail are weaker, once the enemy is at the point where they no longer care about fighting, but they can just ignore the Bramble user.

Note: i had to go through every week of summer split to find that. It took until week 7 to even find tank vs tank top lane. Every week prior was fighter vs fighter (Kled, J4, Renekton, Fiora, even a Jax showed up a couple times).

You should try playing any Cleaver bruiser not named Kayn and try damaging a tank. Not very good.

I mean, i’ve played Darius and still hurt tanks. I see fighters hurt tanks all the time. Where are these untouchable tanks that Cleaver doesn’t even phase them? Show me, please.

Context: https://clips.twitch.tv/HotShinyPigHotPokket

You’ve shown that before, but that’s one instance, and clearly his Sterak’s had procced previously as it just comes off CD right before that fight.

But everytime I have Sterak’s, it procs properly, so what’s different? Hmm?

EDIT: also, just did a google search, the only thing I found about Sterak’s not working was it had a buggy interaction on Kled. Nothing else.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Must have bugged.

I kept Stoneplate a tank's late game item, just not so broken and not 2500 gold.

Try facing a Fiora, Aatrox, Trundle, Darius, Olaf, Irelia, etc, without GW and see what happens.

I still beat them because they suck (except Fiora)? At least if we're only talking Bramble for GW. They were weak before Bramble. Bramble made them worse.

Darius does have in-kit armor pen.

Sterak's not procing is because the threshold is so huge. Changing it makes sure you can still buy into resists and let it proc.

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

Must have bugged.

I kept Stoneplate a tank's late game item, just not so broken and not 2500 gold.

I mean, you could nerf it by just increasing the cost. That extra 20% isn’t that broken.

I still beat them because they suck (except Fiora)? At least if we're only talking Bramble for GW. They were weak before Bramble. Bramble made them worse.

A lot had to be kept weak. Irelia was nerfed to oblivion and made a meme. Trundle just walks over tanks in toplane. He doesn’t care if you built Bramble, because either he doesn’t hit you, or he just ults and steals your armor and mr and resists it better.

I always forget Olaf is mostly a jungler, poor example on my part. Some of those were poor examples. My bad. It’s just still the idea of how well They can heal themselves up.

Darius does have in-kit armor pen.

True, but even when I have played Urgot and Garen, I’ve done decent damage to tanks.

Sterak's not procing is because the threshold is so huge. Changing it makes sure you can still buy into resists and let it proc.

That’s still weird because, like I said, I’ve had it proc a lot. I’m intrigued to see the fight before that Jax clip, see what the difference was in the two fights because it clearly procced beforehand.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Irelia became a meme the moment they effectively removed her passive. Olaf top is even more of a meme.

Urgot has massive % HP damage and also pretty OP right now (though it's nice seeing him OP and not traditional meta shit).

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