Why is Amp Tome (still) so expensive?

Zero Skill Tank·Oct 6, 2016·83 votes·4,064 views

So Amp Tome was made so expensive, because of certain champions interaction with old hextech revolver - you wouldn't want Vlad, Kennen or Kat coming to lane with two pots, and having guaranteed revolver after first back, just to stay in lane and farm forever. Starting with single pot is almost always a suicide, so problem solved.

However, now this abuse case is gone. So why is Amp Tome still 435g instead of 400? Allowing AP champions quick seekers/revolver/wisp/codex or whatever in exchange for riskier, but still 2 pot start seems reasonable for one, and for two high price of Amp Tome artificially boosts gold efficiency of AP items.

84 Comments

Malicious MetalOct 6, 201633 votes

An early Amp tome would certainly make bullying people as Morde a ton easier

MyDearestLeblancOct 6, 201613 votes

[deleted]

RalanrOct 6, 20163 votes

Rumble and Fizz also.

JunkοOct 6, 20164 votes

Implying Fizz can bully people outside of level 2 cheese and doesn't need mana sustain.

RalanrOct 6, 20163 votes

Honestly I see Fizz as someone who really shouldn't have a good early game.

Ever.

I'm biased though.

Celestial Lion12Oct 6, 201613 votes

Fizz shouldnt have a good any time of game

DolasaurOct 7, 20161 votes

And here's Riot saying with the assassin update "we don't think Fizz's early game needs to be so terrible"

/comfort

JunkοOct 8, 20161 votes

To be fair, unless you have experience with Fizz and know how to cheese the matchups, then you will have a REALLY REALLY horrible laning phase. He gets bullied so hard by everyone until you finish your first item.

Gosh DarnOct 6, 20162 votes

Look at the absurd gold efficiency of Doran's. It's not even about mana. It's over 100% gold efficient with the HP and AP alone. I would go so far as to say even completely disregarding mana, amp totem would be worse for laning because it lacks the HP that can easily decide a trade when champions have around 500 hp.

Very Hard EngageOct 6, 20163 votes

dorans doesn't build into anything. and large rod is a 1250 gap on a lot of items.

you can only build amp tome into seekers/codex which limits your build path heavily. (guise if less than 1% of builds is your thing) you could argue aether whisp but either full item option are trash right now so they're excluded.

long sword is a staple on everything

amp tome should be a better buy but its not. AP's often back and buy nothing at all, unlike ads who buy something every back.

Zero IchimonjiOct 6, 20166 votes

{quoted} unlike ads who buy someone every back.

Dat slave trade doe. Poor Support mains.

DeathBurstOct 6, 20165 votes

But would that be a bad thing?

RalanrOct 6, 201618 votes

Yes.

LadyRenlyOct 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X8VUzZgg,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-06T11:43:47.973+0000)

An early Amp tome would certainly make bullying people as Morde a ton easier

..is this not what people do already? I just want rylais ASAP, figured amp tome was the way to go since it's a component piece

Malicious MetalOct 7, 20162 votes

Nope, there are way better starts.

Cloth 4 against AD champs boots 4 against ap or when you just need a bit more MS Dark seal and two pots if you're feeling frisky

Champion SkinOct 7, 20162 votes

item 1082 only costs 350 gold... so you get 3 potions... (which is basically like 3.75 potions because of the increased healing from potions)

or you could go for item 1082 + item 2031 if you are really greedy

1 800 MID LANEOct 6, 201619 votes

My best guess as to the reason it's still 435g and not 400g is manaless AP champions would end up having an edge by default until at least first back simply because they're manaless so they can afford to have an amp tome instead of a Doran's ring with 2 pots giving them more damage potential and similar sustain without being gated by anything except the obvious CDs and poke.

It's not riskier at all save for that little bit of extra health that Doran's gives. It's really only detrimental to AP champions that use mana and a much larger benefit to AP champions that don't if this were the case. The risk involved IS the lack of a health pot.

Zero Skill TankOct 6, 20163 votes

60 HP > 5 AP, especially before first back, when not all abilities are online, and cooldowns are long. Kennen would need to land about 20 shuris on you before he would equalize this.

The Yetii RiderOct 6, 201612 votes

{quoted}

60 HP > 5 AP, especially before first back, when not all abilities are online, and cooldowns are long. Kennen would need to land about 20 shuris on you before he would equalize this.

That's not the point, the point is he would be ahead on his items because he didn't have to waste 400 gold on mana regen. So he may not kill you in the first three minutes, but he's 400 gold into his first item AND can stay in lane longer because he never runs out of mana.

crippler38Oct 6, 20161 votes

well little less than that since you can sell doran's when you don't need it anymore, it's not quite a first blood gold boost to not get it after all!

The Yetii RiderOct 6, 20166 votes

{quoted}

well little less than that since you can sell doran's when you don't need it anymore, it's not quite a first blood gold boost to not get it after all!

The point isn't that they have "more" gold it's that they finish their first item faster. If you're selling Dorans Ring to finish your first item you probably didn't ever need it in the first place.

crippler38Oct 6, 20161 votes

sure, but they also don't get full efficiency out of any item with mana in it so really it's a tradeoff.

The Yetii RiderOct 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

sure, but they also don't get full efficiency out of any item with mana in it so really it's a tradeoff.

No, the trade off is "I don't have to deal with mana but I have less efficient itemization"

crippler38Oct 6, 20161 votes

past level like 6 I almost never have mana problems unless it's me being dumb so I dunno, I think it's mostly fine.

Voluug13Oct 6, 20161 votes

Depends on th champion. Some champions remain mana intensive unless you go the entire RoA/AA route.

Champion SkinOct 7, 20161 votes

Ehh... but what about manaless AD champions? They can just start with Long Sword?

1 800 MID LANEOct 7, 20161 votes

To be fair, no AD starting items give anything for mana. Longsword is a safer start for most champions that would opt for it because it allows more health pots at the sacrifice of life steal. The champions that start longsword generally aren't utilizing the life steal of doran's blade as much as they'd like, so starting longsword makes much more sense. Their abilities are generally AoE and their AAs are generally melee making the lifesteal about as much of a wasted stat as the mana regen part of a doran's ring.

The difference here is safety. The champions that vouch for longsword over doran's blade are all melee if I recall, whereas champions that could start amp tome instead of doran's ring without sacrificing any stats also don't sacrifice any saftey save for Katarina and Mordekaiser. Vladimir and Kennen are the most obvious offenders in this situation. Both of these champions would become much more problematic if the cost of amp tome was reduced.

Champion SkinOct 7, 20161 votes

Kennen? Even if item 1052 was a viable starting item... item 1055 would probably still be better especially against melee champions... since then Kennen can get more damage from auto attack harass and the sustain from the life steal is pretty useful (especially since Kennen doesn't have any mana to worry about) the extra HP would also keep kennen safer from all ins from melee champion

Though yes item 1052 would get him closer to his first finished item

Very Hard EngageOct 6, 20169 votes

lets go ahead and lower it down to 350, and make it combine into blasting wand and i can start with 3 health pots.

lets see how assassins and adcs like it.

(overly gross power i know) ((hint hint longsword))

legionnaire99Oct 6, 20162 votes

Lower it's ap also right?

Zero Skill TankOct 6, 20163 votes

Why would we?

legionnaire99Oct 6, 20162 votes

Maybe the fact of how strong ap idems are to ad?

Very Hard EngageOct 6, 20164 votes

ad's often reach 100 or 200% ratios

ap's are stuck with meager 70% at best. unless its an ultimate.

legionnaire99Oct 6, 20161 votes

Um name one that's 200%

Very Hard EngageOct 6, 201612 votes

LeeSin dragon kick 200%

MonkeyKing also his ult at 440%

Pantheon Mantheon when he spears a low hp target (140% normal, doubles to 280%)

Khazix Q a lone target

Fiora ult

Sion fully charged Q

Renekton hits 180% with dice

not sure about jhin, dont play him, but he hits really hard.

Kled Q does 180% total damage, ult is 300%

all of which also have base damages affixed to them ofc.

others i cant think of right now.

overall AD ratios are much higher to compensate for lower AD builds knowing how effective auto attacks are.

statelesskillerOct 6, 201611 votes

technically lees kick is BONUS ad

Zero Skill TankOct 6, 20163 votes

Which is irrelevant, because there is only one item to grant base AD

TheorcheroOct 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Which is irrelevant, because there is only one item to grant base AD

Bonus ad ratio: Any AD bought or acquired from runes/masteries etc

Total ad: Total ad ratio. Includes base ad.

Only base ad ratio in the game is on Sheen.

Zero Skill TankOct 6, 20162 votes

I know what it means, but it is still irrelevant when we compare ratios between AD and AP abilities, since every AP is bonus AP.

JulanusOct 7, 20161 votes

item 3053 Sterak's Gage is also based on Base Attack Damage.

TeklmOct 6, 20164 votes

Wukong's Ult has the stupidly high AD ratio because he can't auto-attack for 4 seconds when he uses it. You probably know this, but whatevs.

RocketRelmOct 6, 20164 votes

On the one hand, this is technically true.

On the other hand, auto attacks have a 100% AD ratio and a 1 ish second cd, so bringing them up in a 'how valuable is ADvAP' discussion doesn't necessarily HELP the AP case.

Zero Skill TankOct 6, 20164 votes

Critical strike can go up to 250%

resumedOct 6, 20162 votes

ap's are stuck with meager 70% at best. unless its an ultimate.

Veigar tfw you have a basic ability with higher scaling than your ult

buff veigar

Tis a nice dayOct 6, 20161 votes

But then you realize your ult has a better base+ratio (basically more damage) the lower your opponent's health is.

resumedOct 6, 20164 votes

give veigar 100% ap scaling on event horizon

Tis a nice dayOct 6, 20161 votes

100% ap scaling on size.

Champion SkinOct 7, 20162 votes

Hmm wouldn't that actually be a nerf? For one it would be really wonky with it changing size all the time And when the cage gets huge... the enemy will have a lot more room to move around when trapped inside

Though it could also be really fun to stun someone from really far away with cast range + size of the cage

Tis a nice dayOct 7, 20161 votes

Indeed it would be. The user above me said 100% ap scaling but never mentioned what sort of scaling so I had fun imagining if it was size-scaling.