% Bonus Health increase has to return. HEAR ME OUT

Kowe The Ewok·Dec 31, 2014·47 votes·10,675 views

Why is % health increase a good thing?

It improves heavy investment in tank items (it helps fulltanks)
It avoids cases where people would become too tanky with just 1 item (S1 Atmogs meta)

%-health (or armor/Mr) increase is a way of balancing bulkyness for tanks who build 4 or 5 tank items, without breaking it (bulkyness) for bruisers just who build 1 or 2 - like it can happen when single items are too efficient.

This is why last season's jungle tank item was a good "leverage" to start balancing tanks around. It created an itemization path where playing a fulltank made defense items significantly more (gold) efficient. Its removal was a step back. It is a logical response to LW / VS ignoring % armor.

On a side note: Replacing "Runic Blessing" with an upgraded version of "Enchanted Armor" would be a good start.

42 Comments

GloriousKaiserDec 31, 201420 votes

What I want to know is why they removed it when BotrK and Vayne exist.

Dazzle ManDec 31, 20145 votes

{quoted}

What I want to know is why they removed it when BotrK and Vayne exist.

It will just make them do more damage. Vayne will kill any champion in 8 or fewer auto attacks.

RebonackDec 31, 201411 votes

A %Bonus HP boosty item would probably be the way to go. That would discourage grabbing it as a single Soak item and then running more or less all offense.

It would also help serve as a soft counter to Void/Whisper. You need to hit 2400 HP per 100 resist to get optimum EHP against a %Pen user, which is awkward and/or impossible depending on how much defense you're shooting for.

Old Man TeetoDec 31, 20149 votes

Riot has intentionally, deliberately, and knowingly, pushed the "meta" away from durable champions.

This has been THREE years where they've pushed away from them.

Just deal with it. I gave up on Riot choosing the type of game balance that I enjoy. The game is heavily favored towards high damage, high mobility, high outplay. The only tanks which get played are the ones with absurd damage, mobility, and outplay potential that are also strong laners. Also known as broken kits.

Riot should've introduced DOZENS of new items that are actually build-viable and made the cost efficiency of tank items 90% of that of damage items rather than the 60-80% cost efficiency they are currently.

Assassin's are bad for game health. They've always been. However, they're flashy and TONS of people enjoy playing them as they don't rely on a team AT ALL.

Riot reinforced this mindset repeatedly, no longer is it your team vs theirs, it's you vs your team and theirs now. This is how Riot has repeatedly pushed the game. Champions with weaknesses that allies compensate for, or strengths that allies amplify barely exist. Instead it's "Do it all yourself" champion kits.

ShachaJan 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Riot has intentionally, deliberately, and knowingly, pushed the "meta" away from durable champions.

This has been THREE years where they've pushed away from them.

Just deal with it. I gave up on Riot choosing the type of game balance that I enjoy. The game is heavily favored towards high damage, high mobility, high outplay. The only tanks which get played are the ones with absurd damage, mobility, and outplay potential that are also strong laners. Also known as broken kits.

Riot should've introduced DOZENS of new items that are actually build-viable and made the cost efficiency of tank items 90% of that of damage items rather than the 60-80% cost efficiency they are currently.

Assassin's are bad for game health. They've always been. However, they're flashy and TONS of people enjoy playing them as they don't rely on a team AT ALL.

Riot reinforced this mindset repeatedly, no longer is it your team vs theirs, it's you vs your team and theirs now. This is how Riot has repeatedly pushed the game. Champions with weaknesses that allies compensate for, or strengths that allies amplify barely exist. Instead it's "Do it all yourself" champion kits.

I guess Kalista doesnt exist anymore

Lajinn5Dec 31, 20148 votes

I just find it funny how people are so against tanks having their own super item, when carries have tons of them

ExecutorDillDec 31, 20142 votes

{quoted}

I just find it funny how people are so against tanks having their own super item, when carries have tons of them

Ikr

Critt3rDec 31, 20143 votes

They took it out cause it made tanks to strong aka Garen, Singed, Renek, Shen, Mumu and worst of all Mundo. Idk about you but i really didnt like the days in S2 and early S3 where the strat was build HP win game.

Lean into itJan 1, 20153 votes

Season 4 tanks struggle even in jungle
People complain about it to riot for the whole season
End of the season approaches and they introduce quill coat that builds into a better Ancient golem that gives +25% hp or something like that
Makes tank junglers pretty good
Season 5 comes around and they instantly delete it, reverting the tank jungle item back to flat HP and some tenacity

godbless

HibekiDec 31, 20142 votes

Lets make tanks even WORSE in the current meta.

Everything you said here means exactly that.

There isn't a single item in the game that makes someone too tanky, because in the current meta a full build tank will still die in three seconds.

ImHerVoiceDec 31, 20142 votes

we need an item that gives 1.5k+ hp. Simple as that. Warmongs used to be our HP item. Now its a joke.

CollectiveFuryDec 31, 20142 votes

I really miss Spirit of the Ancient Golem on Tank-mu who is now unviable in any level of play from Bronze+.

JunkοDec 31, 20141 votes

Buy Thornamil, 4 Warmogs and the item against a full AD team. Easy win

Grand ElevenDec 31, 20143 votes

Exactly when is a full AD team not been a complete joke to roll .... ever?

JunkοDec 31, 20143 votes

ever since AD mids started dominating mages (Talon, Zed, Yasuo, etc...)

VertaniumDec 31, 20142 votes

Grand's point still stands. Have you ever went thornmail, Randuins, Frozen heart/Sunfire on anyone who can build it? even with last whispers and black cleavers, you will still be unkillable.

exiledFromBadmenJan 1, 20151 votes

No tank is unkillable when Vayne exists.

PyroDec 31, 20141 votes

Thornmail and Frozen Heart are tank items. If you give only %health multiplier but no %resists multiplier it will make tanks feel punished for bulding heavy resistance items.

RebonackDec 31, 20142 votes

{quoted}

Thornmail and Frozen Heart are tank items. If you give only %health multiplier but no %resists multiplier it will make tanks feel punished for bulding heavy resistance items.

I would argue that Thornmail is a Soak item, not a Tank item.

Tank items increase your threat to the enemy team, encouraging them to focus you. Heart does this with CDR (MOAR CC!) and the IAS nerf aura.

Thornmail is a purely selfish Soak item that exists simply to discourage auto-attackers from focusing you.

An item that multiplies your bonus resists would be... kind of redundant, honestly. Hitting optimum resist values against both foes with and without %Pen is really, really easy. Hitting optimum HP values against foes with %Pen is extraordinarily difficult.

I just find it funny how people are so against tanks having their own super item, when carries have tons of them

AD? Crit and Crit Damage.

AP? Deathcap and Deathfire.

Tanky folks? Lol, you're kidding, right? You guys don't get a late game fantasy. Getting AD from HP? Totes broken. Getting HP from HP? No, sorry, that might make it so Assassins can't delete the Tank anymore.

Rinky DinkyDec 31, 20141 votes

As long as Tenacity is not removed from Juggernaut, I have agree.

People dont realize how nice that tenacity is.

Being able to buy boots other than mercs on bruisers/tanks is nice.

Kowe The EwokJan 1, 20151 votes

Since Mercs are a must buy after the MR nerfs the tenacity from juggernaut feels like a wasted stat / cost inefficiency.

VesarixxDec 31, 20141 votes

On a side note: Replacing "Runic Blessing" with an upgraded version of "Enchanted Armor" would be a good start.

This plus a small buff to the % bonus health runes would probably be enough to get the effect, maybe a mastery that granted +5% bonus health. You do need to be careful with % scaling though, since they can get out of hand pretty easily. When spirit of the anchient golem was around top laners were buying it just for the health boost despite it's other stats being a bit underwhelming.

Adding an item that gives a % bonus based on base health could be a workable solution though, since it would allow easier balance for specific champions Great for Alistar, not so much for Gnar). You already have the runes for %bonus health and the juggernaut mastery for total health, which would both scale off of this item.

I like the idea of replacing runic blessing with this though, building out of enchanted armor would be great for avoiding those awkward 1 points in block/tough skin, and it would be getting rid of the worst mastery in the defensive tree.

Another option might be to bring back the old leviathan passive but have it stack up like ROA, like:

450 health 20% cool down reduction +100% mana regen

Unique passive: Resilience: 5% damage reduction, grants an additional 1% damage reduction and 20 health per stack, gaining 1 stack per minute up to a maximum of 10 stacks. Unique Passive – Valor's Reward: On leveling up, restores 150 health and 200 mana over 8 seconds.

WingsofGulgazorJan 1, 20151 votes

I think they should make an item that makes it where the more armor you have the better it scales to make full tank builds more attractive. They should also increase armor pen so that getting below a certain threshhold of armor isn't that great but still good to get a lot of armor. Though i'm not really sure how this would work balance wise.

GloriousKaiserJan 1, 20151 votes

Just like how they don't buff SpellVamp because of Vladamir, they won't make that item because of Garen.

Funny thought, I'm sure Spirit of the Ancient Golem disappeared around the time Sion rework came around. Wonder why?

RebonackJan 1, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I think they should make an item that makes it where the more armor you have the better it scales to make full tank builds more attractive. They should also increase armor pen so that getting below a certain threshhold of armor isn't that great but still good to get a lot of armor. Though i'm not really sure how this would work balance wise.

You would think that's a good idea, wouldn't you?

But assuming you already have 200ish armor by the time your foes have made a Last Whisper (what kind of tank are you if you haven't?) then you may as well just stop building armor altogether, because the optimum HP benchmark for 200 armor against someone with Whisper is 4800. That is an absolutely absurd amount of HP.

If you keep building armor you're wasting your gold.

ZoofJan 1, 20151 votes

I always thought it would be interesting if designated tank/bruiser items amplified the tankiness (health and maybe resists) of the other tank items, that way a bruiser doesn't get much effect from it, but a tank gets the full load (something like 5% more stats from tank items per item, totally to 25% extra stats)

exiledFromBadmenJan 1, 20151 votes

ADC's are gonna make me mad. Even I have 6 armor items, they're shuting me down in 3-4 seconds. They must be tuned. And %HP damage when %HP items don't exist is a joke. Also %Penetration. I don't wanna barely kill Red as any tank. I wanna soak damage, not being an easy kill. Teamwork should be everything. There are big playz makeable tanks, Riot please.

Poptart EvelynnJan 1, 20151 votes

There needs to be more end game item pick ups that only benefit full tanks.

ErijianDec 31, 2014

Yes please I want Garen to become Raid Boss with 200/200 Armor/MR alongside 4.5K HP with two or three offensive Items at the same time.

And I'm not meaning it negatively, an item like that should really be added back into the game but with checks to ensure certain champions aren't able to abuse it in the long run. I mostly threw Garen out as an example as he normally builds 2-3 Damage Items coupled with his W's Passive boosting his defensive options allowing him to be extremely offensive and defensive (What Bruisers do, I know) at the same time. You can average 240 - 300 AD depending on which offensive items you build, alongside an average of 200 - 250 Armor, 160 - 200 Magic Resist, 400 MS, and 2,800 - 3,400 Health. Just trying to give an accurate representation of how a %Health item could benefit or break his durability which was originally why he had his W's Passive nerfed back when Defensive Itemization was strong in Season 3.

I'd just hate to see him nerfed again just for the benefit of other tanks, y'know? A lot of the pissy/bad players hate Garen because they think he's OP so they wouldn't care, but the people who actually like him wouldn't be too appreciative of that.

Kowe The EwokDec 31, 20145 votes

{quoted}

Yes please I want Garen to become Raid Boss with 200/200 Armor/MR alongside 4.5K HP with two or three offensive Items at the same time

That is exactly what is not supposed to happen. That's why % health is good thing because it makes other tank items more efficient, building 3 damage items will not make much use of the % health, depending on the amount it might even be an inefficient purchase.

TonyTonyMordecaiDec 31, 20141 votes

Since it's really difficult to build GOOD health items if you're behind, the % health increase would be really useful. Especially since the newest iteration of Warmogs only gives 800 health, you might as well get the Frozen Mallet, since it gives damage with only 100 less health.

ErijianJan 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X3dU5usp,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2014-12-31T04:59:36.747+0000)

That is exactly what is not supposed to happen. That's why % health is good thing because it makes other tank items more efficient, building 3 damage items will not make much use of the % health, depending on the amount it might even be an inefficient purchase.

Sorry if my original post came off as rude, but as much as I want an item like that to exist it'd be too easy to abuse. People don't really know how well Garen can balance out his stats and something like that being added to the game would be insane for him and other champions that can hybrid as well as he can. Garen can abuse Tank items just as well as tanks themselves can because of his W.

Kowe The EwokJan 1, 20151 votes

Stats however don't mean anything without the skills behind it. Gare lacks a dash, which means he can easily be kited. He has bad synergy with items, since attackspeed is a bad stat for him and his E as his main source of damage has only a 50% uptime and require him to basically stay on the targets head (meaning the other 50% of the time he's useless). As a result a single dash away from hiw makes him useless for the rest of the teamfight (considering how short and burst heavy teamfights have become).

His ultimate has a absolutely lack of synergy as well. For some unknown reason it deals magic damage. This is horrible for Garen since nothing else in his kit benefits from it and the ability itself is so conditional and long cooldown that investing in it would be useless.

Overall Garen doesn't perform well, even though has great stats on paper.

RebonackDec 31, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Yes please I want Garen to become Raid Boss with 200/200 Armor/MR alongside 4.5K HP with two or three offensive Items at the same time

Well, lets use our imaginations here.

For the sake of argument we'll say that this bonus HP boost item builds out two Giant's Belts and a Ruby with a combine of 900 gold. Also for the sake of argument, we'll say that this thing provides the same degree of cost-effectiveness for HP that Deathcap provides for AP, so it grants 980 HP and increases your Bonus HP by 30%.

So if you rushed it, that would snag you 1274 HP, about as much as a fully stacked old Warmog's for 300 more gold and no HP/5.

Alright, now we'll combine it with Mercs, Spirit Visage, Omen, Last Whisper, and Black Cleaver for another 1100 boosted up to 1430 bonus HP on top of the 2248 HP he gets for leveling for a grand total of 4952 HP!

So yeah, if this thing were as strong as Deathcap then it could make your Garen-based nightmare a reality. Would that be swell?

Wouldn't be able to make it with three offensive items, though. Gotta stick with two (or one and a half, since Cleaver gives HP).

ErijianDec 31, 20141 votes

Wouldn't be able to make it with three offensive items, though. Gotta stick with two (or one and a half, since Cleaver gives HP).

Oh lol, I said two or three because by a pure miracle a game lasts long enough for Garen to full build (Merc's/Cleaver/LW or IE/Visage/Randuins/New HP Item or Warmog's or Shiv) and there's not that strong of an AP on the enemy team, Garen can actually trade out Merc's for a Zephyr giving him some AS, CDR, Tenacity, more MS and Damage. It actually ends up being really efficient on him in the long run.

Though that's very situational lol, just thought I'd mention it for the fun of it, but I actually didn't really want that Garen thing to happen. :P I'm more just pointing out that there's certain Champions that'd be able to abuse a %Health item extremely well, and I'm just hoping that if one were to be added it wouldn't bring any nerfs to Garen since he'd be a huge abuser of it potentially.

Thank you for doing the math though!

azrolatorDec 31, 20146 votes

You are basically saying that a champ without cc(except a silence), no gap closer, 2 defense items, 90 bonus ad in 2 weapons, and this pure hp item you imagine would be a nightmare. You can already hit 4k with 2 weapons and warmogs, those defense items, and have regen even while poked or fighting and have more damage. If a melee type is building a tank and not a big damage dealer, he needs to have something there to compensate since the damage itemization is stronger than defense itemization right now. I think it working with 2 hps items is fine as long as LW works with 2 damage items just fine.

exiledFromBadmenJan 1, 20151 votes

Garen isn't a tank. He has a selfish kit with little CC, these ones are fighters. Tanks usually have 2 or more CCs and way less damage.

Examples of pure tanks:

Alistar Amumu Braum Maokai Rammus Leona Sejuani Zac Nautilus Blitzcrank