stacking black cleaver in team should be punisheable

Ahristocats··4 votes·2,413 views

Black cleaver is a shred, and items like that should not be stackable by that it means it should be inefficient to get black cleaver on a top/jungle/adc

In league it's a bad idea to buy every item giving an aura or a shred more than once, like item 3001 or old item 3190 , or item 3107 active or old WOTA once riot made the aura unique

however black cleaver is itself too strong, the stats it gives makes the item 100% requiered on almost every single AD and thus, if your darius has already black cleaver you don't act like "my toplane has already black cleaver i shouldn't buy one too" you just buy it because of 20% cdr+400 hp+40 ad this makes the item 100% gold efficient without its 2 passives that gives movement speed and armor penetration shred

and this is a problem since the 2013 version of black cleaver

abyssal scepter on the other hand is 96% gold efficient without its aura, which means if you have 2 auras the item is going to be less efficient and less powerful, which is also not true for black cleaver as the armor shred will stack faster if multiple people with black cleaver are going to hit

the more you know the better you are

30 Comments

Oleandervine4 votes

You've been on a witch hunt for Black Cleaver pretty recently.

Ahristocats2 votes

No

i'm just realising how problematic it is, that i have to buy it everytime on the majority of ad champions

fuffychan1 votes

Because its broken af?

Hammermancer4 votes

by your logic, it shouldnt be allowed to have two people dealing damage because damage stacking is unfair

also if i remember right, there are a few champs that get 100% pen, garen and darius being notable in this regard, a big chunk of cleaver champs are actually quite squishy, so stacking all of its potential penn on say.. five champions.. isnt really a thing... like at all, if a team synergizes well enough to do this then its fine, but the team gold cost of four cleavers, vs a cleaver and a brutilizer for example, is pretty hefty...

Ahristocats1 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WwJHWTxw,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-03-18T11:51:29.532+0000)

by your logic, it shouldnt be allowed to have two people dealing damage because damage stacking is unfair

that's according to your logic mine is simply to allow more build diversity

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WwJHWTxw,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-03-18T11:51:29.532+0000)

also if i remember right, there are a few champs that get 100% pen, garen and darius being notable in this regard,

Hahahahahahaha No

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WwJHWTxw,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-03-18T11:51:29.532+0000)

a big chunk of cleaver champs are actually quite squishy, so stacking all of its potential penn on say.. five champions.. isnt really a thing...

you don't need to stack it on 5 people, just on the enemy you're focusing

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WwJHWTxw,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-03-18T11:51:29.532+0000)

like at all, if a team synergizes well enough to do this then its fine, but the team gold cost of four cleavers, vs a cleaver and a brutilizer for example, is pretty hefty...

the fuck is a brutilizer? and you don't need four cleavers, except if you have 4 ad in your team

InTheory2 votes

[deleted]

Ahristocats1 votes

so what you say is that i allow you to buy multiple other ad items instead of always building black cleaver? what's the name of that again?

oh yeah diversity

Hammermancer3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WwJHWTxw,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-03-18T12:01:35.760+0000)

that's according to your logic mine is simply to allow more build diversity

False: you're trying to pidgeonhole people away from using an item, you're not suggesting any additional items or compensation buffs to currently weak items

Hahahahahahaha No Garen has 25% shred on his e, and darius has something like 70% negation, either of these can easily meet the 100% mark

you don't need to stack it on 5 people, just on the enemy you're focusing

if your team is 5 man focusing a target and that tart only dies because of cleaver stacks then we are in the depths of tank hell, since that is not the case, then anyone who gets 5 man focused is generally going to die irregardless of itemization

the fuck is a brutilizer?

really? sorry symantics, they changed the name to last whisper... k.. you're cool.. its the same item essentially but stats have been adjusted over time

and you don't need four cleavers, except if you have 4 ad in your team so if you have four ad (Soloquo) then you need four cleavers, because everyone needs that shred just to 1v1 assuming a remotely competent enemy team decides "Build armor" (Pro strat)

Ahristocats1 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WwJHWTxw,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2017-03-18T12:26:32.756+0000)

False: you're trying to pidgeonhole people away from using an item, you're not suggesting any additional items or compensation buffs to currently weak items

i wouldn't force you to not buy black cleaver, just to make other option as equal as black cleaver, and i don't think that black cleaver is meant to be built on SO MANY people, there is a reason rylai has been nerfed

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WwJHWTxw,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2017-03-18T12:26:32.756+0000) Garen has 25% shred on his e, and darius has something like 70% negation, either of these can easily meet the 100% mark

it stacks multiplicativly sir lmao

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WwJHWTxw,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2017-03-18T12:26:32.756+0000)

if your team is 5 man focusing a target and that tart only dies because of cleaver stacks then we are in the depths of tank hell,

who cares? if it dies faster it's even better who wants to complain about a target dying in 1 sec?

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WwJHWTxw,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2017-03-18T12:26:32.756+0000)

because everyone needs that shred just to 1v1

then make it weaker in 5v5, that's how it works son

Hammermancer2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WwJHWTxw,comment-id=0005000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-18T12:37:58.892+0000)

i wouldn't force you to not buy black cleaver, just to make other option as equal as black cleaver, and i don't think that black cleaver is meant to be built on SO MANY people, there is a reason rylai has been nerfed

annnd quite frankly a lot of mages have been pushed out due to them being re-balanced around rylais. Riot never delivered the two items they promised, they gave a non-specialized weak variant of the old item, even though they acknowledged that so many champs would be harmed greatly by it, EVEN IF the item was intended to be built only by juggernauts (Which it wasn't), we still have the issue of so many champs being balanced 100% around that item, there are lesstop lane ad champions that function well without it than top lane ad champs that require it. Because they've literally all had their cooldowns and health altered over time to balance for that item.

it stacks multiplicativly sir

sorry if i did the math wrong but, mortal reminder and a black cleaver with four tank items on garen will get quite a bit of pen, maybe i was wrong on 100% but it'll be around 80%

lmao

Sooooo much better than me, gosh, you're so damned cool

who cares? if it dies faster it's even better who wants to complain about a target dying in 1 sec?

You"re literally in a burst meta, don't complain about sustain damage items

then make it weaker in 5v5, that's how it works son

Why? it's good teamwork to focus and reduce armor, Hell get me a badass cait with a cleaver, a ruunan's, and a mallet and let her make it her whole job to do slow and armor shred on the enemy team, bonus for stacking hp and using the stonepact mastery (That's a bad idea, but it might be an op norms strat)

InTheory3 votes

[deleted]

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

a) several comps will break because you won't want to have several champions on the same team with the same core item

what is core on who? they build black cleaver because the stats it gives is simply universal and too strong on them cdr+hp+ad COMBINED with strong passives cannot be skipped

{quoted}

b) item efficiency becomes a factor over team composition

if you have too much AD and enemy team decided to build armor, punishing them for building armor just because 2 or 3 people will buy a strong item is a bad idea

{quoted}

c) some champions further decrease in pick rate because champion X looses in efficiency compared to champion Y because of champion

has nothing to do with an item that is built too much time

{quoted}

d) players fight for champions because of items or give a shit resulting in even more toxicity.

i'm not understanding this one

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

item 3071 vs item 3091

Ahristocats1 votes

Yes but wit's end stats aren't universal

MrHaZeYo2 votes

Universal how?

Stealing MR means they lose that MR, so wouldn't that mean their MR is lowered for the whole team damaging that target?

Ahristocats1 votes

k try to buy wits'end on every ad champ and tell me what happens

MrHaZeYo3 votes

See that's why I asked how lol. I generally agree with everything I see you post, I was just simply curious.

I wanted more context.

Hammermancer1 votes

item 3091 item 3065 item 3139 item 3111 item 3156 item 3814 Galio

I meant to say Graves or some shit but like... i misclicked galio and i'm okay with that

Shadòw2 votes

it has a cap at 6 stacks.

and why should it be punishable? for some champions the item is simply core?

should it be punishable too if you get item 1001 when the rest of the team already has them or what?

Ahristocats1 votes

item 1001 doesn't bring benefits to other people in your team

isn't core on any champions, not even darius and i say it as a darius main try to play a game with trinity force instead of black cleaver you will be perfectly fine instead of abusing an overpowered item

A Basic Island1 votes

They stack?

Didn't know that I just assumed it didn't

Skelenth1 votes

The complete effects don't stack, but since Black Cleaver itself has a stack-passive (you need to hit 5 times or so for the full 30% armor reduction to apply) more champions applying those single stacks let it reach full power faster on that target.

Hammermancer1 votes

soooo basically theres no problem here outside someone getting mad about nothing... k

A Basic Island1 votes

uh... who cares??

that's intended...

Ahristocats1 votes

it is

the intention is just fucktard

A Basic Island1 votes

what's the alternative you suggest? You can shred lower than 6 stacks?

fuffychan1 votes

Riot loves their AD melees

Thats why all AP items get nerfed

Requiemsfire1 votes

Now I know you hate the item as seen below but isn't this extreme?

chipndip11 votes

Going to have to disagree.

Cleaver isn't the big issue more than lack of item diversity in general means Cleaver needs to be a pretty strong core item for all fighters. You hate the symptoms, but it's the wrong illness.

If you want less champs building the same item, you need more viable options. It's the same thing I was complaining about for supports with Locket/Redemption, but now it's Cleaver for fighters. At least fighters aren't THAT bad when it comes to possible build paths.

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