Why nerf Vlad's pool ?

option paralysis·Jul 20, 2016·12 votes·804 views

How is nerfing his pool with 2 more secs on cd will make him balanced and not have 70% ban rate ? I really don't understand the train of thought here. I have never heard anyone complain about his pool being up so fast (LOL) or something. You max it last and you don't even see the difference until mid/late game. People hate him because of his 1k++ heals and huge deeps on his E, while building HP. How about you make him less toxic to deal with in lane or teamfights and not give him a useless nerf that won't accomplish anything.

25 Comments

Votable JesterJul 20, 20166 votes

I think the idea is that it gives a greater window during which you can bully, gank, or dive him. I don't have any particular though on whether this is the right direction or not, but I figure this will at least help you understand their thought process.

Demon King MaouJul 20, 20165 votes

https://gyazo.com/dca0007d7711c899db415fa7c90e43a0.gif

Slamurai JackJul 20, 20165 votes

Nerfing his pool CD gives him less time to stall and thus less healing. It really isn't that complicated.

USG FailsawceJul 20, 20162 votes

Because fuck Vlad?

Isn't that obvious? No? Well in that case...

Fuck Vlad.

a very bad nadoJul 20, 20162 votes

I'm assuming you're saying all of this because you're a Vlad main yourself, aren't you?

MatthewRT2Jul 20, 20162 votes

he probably is but aside form that it makes no sense to do this because when it doesn't work they are going to nerf him even more and keep the higher cd just making him useless in the long run.

a very bad nadoJul 21, 20161 votes

It's good that he's at least getting SOME nerfs though. In Patch 6.13, not only Vladimir but also Swain were the top two OP champions and if they didn't get any changes/nerfs made to them, to this day they would literally have a much more higher win rate than Sona, who currently stands at a whopping 60% win rate.

MatthewRT2Jul 21, 20161 votes

His ban rate would never allow that

WoonStruckJul 21, 20161 votes

Except Swain was actually winning games.

Meanwhile, Vlad, one of the simplest champs in the game overall, is sitting at 48% winrate or lower, depending on position. He isn't excelling anywhere except farm.

They either need to rework him again, or just leave him where he's at. Small nerfs like these won't make him any less frustrating, they'll just make him useless eventually.

a very bad nadoJul 21, 20161 votes

They can't exactly "rework him again" since he just got a rework from this recent Midseason update. Maybe in future, Riot may possibly rework him a bit and give him a few slight tweaks, however, for now he isn't going to get an actual rework. Riot could also just leave him where's he at right now but people honestly need to stop, I guess, bitching, about Vladimir receiving some changes that he apparently doesn't need. At the end of the day, it all depends on how a majority of people feel about a particular champion, not just one or two people. It also depends on what the statistics look like. If Riot feel a particular champion is way too overpowered, then they'll just give that champion a nerf or two. If they feel a particular champion is way too weak, then they'll just give that champion a buff or two. Don't forget this is their game lmao and if they feel a certain champion requires certain changes then I guess you just have to accept that and try to adapt to it.

WoonStruckJul 22, 20161 votes

Meanwhile Ryze.

He's just as much of a mess as Vlad has been. Vlad deserves just as much attention, considering what he does.

And it being 'their game' doesn't mean anything. If they just let things go (like they have been), the game goes downhill (like it has been).

While Vlad won't make or break the community's perception of Riot, he's historically been an issue on the same level as Ryze, just in a different light. Considering the attention they've given to Ryze to try to make him good without being broken (and still continue to fail), they could do the same for classically problematic champs, like Vlad. Especially since Vlad has such a unique thing offers compared to other champions, similar to Ryze.

a very bad nadoJul 23, 20161 votes

Dude, I don't think you understand. It being "their game" does mean quite a lot. If you got banned, would you casually just sit there and say, "Oh, they banned me. This doesn't mean anything. I don't care."..? You wouldn't, right? Also, I find it pretty hysterical to watch you point out the obvious. Clearly everybody KNOWS that if Riot doesn't meet some of their high expectations, they're pretty much not going to be happy, are they? And to further add on to that, if the game is supposedly going "downhill", how or even why are you still playing the game?

In addition, I'm just going to put this out there, Vlad sucks. Vlad sucks, big, hard, balls. You're complaining about Riot failing to make a particular champion such as Ryze good without being broken and yet you want them to do the same for "classically problematic champs like Vlad". If anything, there are WAY more worthy champions out there that Riot could pay more attention to such as Kassadin rather than champions such as Vladimir. I'm sorry to burst your bubble but, that's just the truth.

WoonStruckJul 23, 20161 votes

Getting banned is much different than general customer satisfaction issues. Even outside of that, I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. You haven't really made one.

A game going downhill doesn't mean its unplayable. It means I'm likely to drop it in the future due to its current state and direction. I play less than 1/10 of what I used to.

Vlad fills a more interesting design space (when done well) than Kassadin. Kassadin has mobility as his ult, and it has an extremely low CD. That's about as interesting as Kass gets. Tell me what exactly is interesting about Kassadin except his power-curve, which Vlad shares in general.

People hate playing against a Kass that's a major part of a match more than they hate playing against Vlad. Any time Kass is decent, he instantly becomes pick/ban.

a very bad nadoJul 28, 20161 votes

If you fail to realise the point I was trying to make, don't reply to this thread anymore. This conversation is just becoming more and more pointless.

On the other hand, if you're likely to drop playing league in future due to its "current state and direction", save your breathe. Literally just quit playing the game right now and then you don't have to kick up an unnecessary fuss about the game. I literally cringe every time I look at my notifications on the forums, only to see you complain about something as minor as how the current state of league is. Like come on man, don't be that guy.

Moreover, did you really just put the words "Vlad" and "interesting design space" in the same sentence? I'm disappointed man. I'm really disappointed. And if you're so curious as to what's so interesting about Kassadin except his power-curve, why don't you tell me first what's so interesting about Vladimir, huh?

Last but not least, dude, come on. Many people would agree that they hate playing against a Vlad. He literally takes no skill to play and he was just downright strong in Patch 6.13 or whatever. All you have to do really to get a simple triple kill or so is just use your Q, your ult and your items as much as you can because they are the things that can give you a shit ton of health.

WoonStruckJul 28, 20161 votes

I don't fail to realize it, you are just very poor at making points.

League is still a game I want to see grow, and it will not continue to grow with its current direction.

Seriously, fuck you if you think I, or anyone else, shouldn't have the right to want a game they used to like become 'better', even if 'better' is subjective in most cases.

You're the one being 'that guy'. You know, the one that tells people what they can and can't want like you know better.

Vlad's current kit isn't his 'design-space'

Its significant HP costs and significant sustain. It can be done right, Riot just hasn't tried very hard. Vlad's design-space is high input-output with HP.

Kassadin is literally just mobility on his ult. You could fill the rest of his kit with literally anything else and he'd hold the same 'design-space'.

If he literally takes no skill to play, why is his win-rate so low relative to how contested he is in pro play?

I never said Vlad had to keep his current kit, just like Ryze's kit has been changing more drastically lately. Just like Poppy's kit and gameplay was almost completely re-done. Just like Yorick's and Warwick's are going to be re-done.

Its simply re-utilizing the design space the current champion holds; getting rid of the unworkable version and replacing with one that can be worked on.

a very bad nadoJul 28, 20161 votes

I swear to God you actually do fail to realise it. And if I'm very poor at making points, why the fuck am I still having this conversation with you dumbass?

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. You're so toxic, no wonder why you have so many accounts banned. You claim you hardly play league anymore, ha, that's funny. That's just an excuse. I don't think you'll ever become reformed dude but that's no surprise.

And how the fuck am I being "that guy" who tells people what they can and can't want like I know better? You're so delusional man. Talking to you is like explaining colour to a blind person.

Legit, quit crying about Vladimir and just accept what you get man. People like you just irritate me man. You can't be grateful that a particular champion like Vladimir receives some changes. That's just fucking stupid. Every champion is going to be changed one way or another. This game isn't going to have a single champion that's completely forgotten about or just completely untouched. You're the only person complaining about something as minor as this and it's pretty depressing to see.

WoonStruckJul 29, 20161 votes

I have accounts banned?

Am I the one cursing needlessly?

Re-read what you said and its clear that you're attempting to say I can't voice my complaints.

I'm not crying about Vlad, just stating that he's got a better design-space than Kassadin, and that a full-scale rework would be much better for both the champion and the game over-all. Nerfs like they're currently giving don't accomplish anything as far as the reason the champ is being nerfed, but they do pile up over time and make the champion unusable after a while.

If you disagree, do tell me what these nerfs will be 'fixing' on Vlad. His mobility certainly isn't out of line. Considering he's usually running Ghost/Stormraider's and has Rylai's, the MS tap will hardly affect him. It might push more people into using MS quints to cover early laning pressure with CR procs, though.

The W nerf actually accomplishes nothing, especially when champions like Azir (in competitive) get by without getting hit for similar reasons. Its adding less than 10% CD to a 20+ second CD ability. That's not noticeable. Later on in the game, you often can't pool a second time before a fight is over anyway, and he'll often be running Zhonya's either way. All it does is hit his clean-up potential after 5 ranks in W+40% CDR, which isn't why Vlad is being nerfed in the first place. It makes him weaker without fixing any problems. That's simply not a good balance philosophy.

a very bad nadoJul 29, 20161 votes

How am I "cursing" you "needlessly"..? I'm just telling you what you need to hear man but you're just being insensitive and arrogant.

You are crying about Vlad though. You're constantly complaining about Vlad and I don't see anyone else here taking an interest in your complaints. And quite frankly, I don't even see any Riot employees take an interest as well, no offence.

I don't need an in-depth explanation on what Vlad's abilities are and what they do.

FYI, if you think you know what "good balance philosophy" is, why don't you go to the Riot offices and then tell them what you think it is. Tell them how to run their own game lmao.

ErockandrollJul 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile Ryze.

He's just as much of a mess as Vlad has been. Vlad deserves just as much attention, considering what he does.

And it being 'their game' doesn't mean anything. If they just let things go (like they have been), the game goes downhill (like it has been).

While Vlad won't make or break the community's perception of Riot, he's historically been an issue on the same level as Ryze, just in a different light. Considering the attention they've given to Ryze to try to make him good without being broken (and still continue to fail), they could do the same for classically problematic champs, like Vlad. Especially since Vlad has such a unique thing offers compared to other champions, similar to Ryze.

The fact that Riot has been giving Vlad that attention suggests that nothing big is going to happen. (WHY?) Riot has stated that they are no longer going to waste time with smaller changes, for champions that are going to need a large scale rework.

The only thing the really did was change one ability. and Rebalance him around the lack of spell vamp.

WoonStruckJul 29, 20161 votes

They didn't just re-balance him around lack of spell vamp. They tried to add more counter-play to his kit.

His E changes are an obvious sign of that, as well as the gimped non-CR Q casts.

Riot will likely give him a full-scale rework on the level that other champions have received, and its long over-due. Its what should have happened in the first place. Nobody likes fighting either iteration of the current Vlad.

QuephaJul 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I have never heard anyone complain about his pool being up so fast

Are you serious?

MatthewRT2Jul 20, 20161 votes

in urf at lvl 5 his pool has .3 sec cooldown. I'd just get deadmans spirit visage and 4 warmogs. easy penta while enemy team flamed

TesliumJul 20, 20161 votes

They are going soft on him and then the patch after 6.15, you will see his passive nerfed to the ground. Because that's what they did with Malzahar, and probably will do the same to him as well. But honestly, the problem is his crimson rush. They need to make it available only when he has 5 points into his Q.

MatthewRT2Jul 20, 20162 votes

i disagree with this solely on the counterplay they added to his crimson rush, you can see when he has it up so just be passive for 3 seconds, its not that hard.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

How is nerfing his pool with 2 more secs on cd will make him balanced and not have 70% ban rate ? I really don't understand the train of thought here. I have never heard anyone complain about his pool being up so fast (LOL) or something. You max it last and you don't even see the difference until mid/late game. People hate him because of his 1k++ heals and huge deeps on his E, while building HP. How about you make him less toxic to deal with in lane or teamfights and not give him a useless nerf that won't accomplish anything.

link to nerfs

or just make excuses as to why you can't give the links

Either way