The main problem with support itemization.

Zerenza·Nov 16, 2016·5 votes·850 views

The support roles itemization consists entirely of items that give something to their team without any reward for the support player.

The support role is one of the least fun roles to play for many reasons but a main reason is the simple fact that you don't feel rewarded for doing your job. All of your items are for the sole purpose of helping someone else but give nothing in return. The misconception riot seems to have is that all support items should only be for the purpose of making their job easier and not for rewarding them for doing it in the first place.

Edit: You guys don't seem to understand what i mean. I mean that itemization for supports should be more than just for helping your team, it should also give the support something in return such as gold income or EXP income that they usually lack. Right now i don't care what support i have as long as they get redemption, because the item is more important than the support that has it.

21 Comments

Ego KillerNov 16, 20164 votes

I disagree, as a support main I don't feel this need to be rewarded for my job. I believe people need to start looking at the support role in the following way:

You're meant to be the sacrificial lamb. In that I mean you are the one who has to be willing to play with very little gold and very little damage. Your role is to provide for your team with your KIT not with your items per say. Support kits are extremely powerful in the utility department for a reason, because they have to be willing to play around their team.

The real reason people don't play support as much as the other roles is that they feel less able to carry from it, NOT because it's boring. Supports aren't easy to find in solo queue for a reason, they rely almost COMPLETELY on their team to win. In premades though, the support role is very common. This is because they know the people they are playing with.

The only real issue with the new support itemization is that it puts a lot of emphasis on sustain champions and makes full damage supports less viable (which is a great thing).

I don't understand this complaining that supports don't get recognized as much as their carries, a win is all the appreciation I need.

ZerenzaNov 16, 20161 votes

I mean that items should reward the support player for supporting. A tanky support should be rewarded for tanking for their team, a heal support should be rewarded for healing and a poke support should be rewarded for poking(spellthiefs does). Maybe make items that give them more gold if they tank while an ally is nearby, that way you get rewarded for your job instead of always having the lowest score, the least amount of gold and the lowest number of items.

Thanks for the downvote though for a misunderstanding.

Tentacle AdvisorNov 16, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ego Killer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wop05jx8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-16T09:11:00.067+0000)

I disagree, as a support main I don't feel this need to be rewarded for my job. I believe people need to start looking at the support role in the following way:

You're meant to be the sacrificial lamb. In that I mean you are the one who has to be willing to play with very little gold and very little damage. Your role is to provide for your team with your KIT not with your items per say. Support kits are extremely powerful in the utility department for a reason, because they have to be willing to play around their team.

The real reason people don't play support as much as the other roles is that they feel less able to carry from it, NOT because it's boring. Supports aren't easy to find in solo queue for a reason, they rely almost COMPLETELY on their team to win. In premades though, the support role is very common. This is because they know the people they are playing with.

The only real issue with the new support itemization is that it puts a lot of emphasis on sustain champions and makes full damage supports less viable (which is a great thing).

I don't understand this complaining that supports don't get recognized as much as their carries, a win is all the appreciation I need.

All of this, yes. I've been a sacrificial lamb in so many games. Even ones that didn't require me to be so, simply because I found it to be beneficial to my team's mission. I love it when I die to save the team from inevitable death and my team goes, "Soraka, what the hell?" and I'm just like, "You got out alive. That's what the hell."

ZerenzaNov 16, 20161 votes

See i feel like things like that should give something to the support. Like realistically all you did was sacrifice yourself, more EXP and more gold so your teamates to get out, that's good and all but it forces the support player to be behind when they should really get something out of being a savior like that ya know?

OglafNov 16, 20162 votes

{quoted}

See i feel like things like that should give something to the support. Like realistically all you did was sacrifice yourself, more EXP and more gold so your teamates to get out, that's good and all but it forces the support player to be behind when they should really get something out of being a savior like that ya know?

It does give you something in return: a hefty Armour boost when near your ADC buddy and you get Lifesteal based on the damage they do.

Which is just fan-freakin'-tastic.

ZerenzaNov 16, 20161 votes

I don't think we were talking about Knight's Vow which is an item i like, redemption on the other hand i don't because its another one of those AOE Cleanse or Barrier items that doesn't give the support anything in return.

OglafNov 16, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I don't think we were talking about Knight's Vow which is an item i like, redemption on the other hand i don't because its another one of those AOE Cleanse or Barrier items that doesn't give the support anything in return.

Yup, I do hope it is their first attempt at testing out a new design philosophy when it comes to Support items. As I said, symbiosis in itemization.

item 3050 kinda tried to do it, but let's not kid ourselves here: the stats you get when it triggers are 100% for your ADC buddy, and not for the Support themselves.

HideousbeastNov 16, 20163 votes

This doesn't take into account that a support role done well results in a successful game, which is the reward. It might be a win, it might be a great KDA, it might even be a friend request from the ADC (second only in honour to a request from the enemy ADC). The same rewards are on offer to a support as everyone else, and a true support will take pride in filling their role in the team. Just like the ADC, just like the jungler, just like the split-pushing top laner. Any role well done is the reward.

ZerenzaNov 16, 20162 votes

You don't get it. A support should be more valuable to their team than just the items they use to help them.

HideousbeastNov 16, 20161 votes

I get what you are saying, that's why I didn't mention the items, because I agree with you. A support should be a support because of how well they help the team, not by what items they build.

I imagine that you would agree with me that a Soraka (with all the current meta support items) split pushing a side lane while there is a team fight going on is not a good support.

The role, just like the items, will only help the team if the support tries to help in the best way that they can, and if they do that well, they get rewarded for that as I mentioned above. A true support (attitude) will be glad that the items allow them to help their team so much, regardless of their own "status" or seemingly receiving nothing in return.

ZerenzaNov 16, 20161 votes

The thing is though is that with items like Redemption, i don't care whether i have a braum, soraka or karma. As long as they get that item i don't give a shit about what type of support i have. A supports itemization should reward them for doing their job by giving them extra gold or other benefits not making them less important than the item itself.

Tentacle AdvisorNov 16, 20162 votes

I may be one of the very few who don't mind the "I don't get any recognition" part of being a support. I wholeheartedly play the role to simply help my teammates get through the game as safe as possible. I don't much mind the lack of a returning favor, so long as my team is not flaming me for something. The way I see it, if my team isn't flaming me, then I'm doing my job correctly.

I can agree that the support role needs better itemization, but I don't believe the reason for it is because they get no recognition. I believe the reason why they need more [better] options for itemization is because support champions currently HAVE to build a specific way to be viable.

For example, Tank supports like Leona and Taric have to build tanky to be able to do their job. However, by building tanky, they lose out on CDR. (For the most part.) They can't build Sunfire Cape because it doesn't give CDR. They can't build Banshee's Veil because it doesn't give CDR. And if the enemy adc doesn't build a crit-style build (despite the fact that non-crit builds aren't that strong anymore) then tank supports can't build, or more shouldn't build Randuin's Omen because it doesn't give CDR. They'd have to build Frozen Heart. But if I remember correctly, Frozen Heart's armor stat works better if you have some extra HP to go with it, so you'd require some form of extra HP built. Randuin's basically does the same as Frozen Heart, but gives less armor, no CDR and requires you to be hit to get the attack-speed slow debuff.

For another example, cleric supports like Soraka and Janna have to build CDR and a little AP to be able to do their job. (Although, Janna is still good at doing her job, even without CDR, but this is just me speaking in general.) However, by building CDR and AP, they lose out on beefier tank stats. Sure, Mikaels, Locket and Athene's give CDR, Mag Res and AP (Athene's), the Mag Res you get from them isn't much. And, for the most part, you really won't be around the enemy team's mage too often for Mag Res to be a big necessity. That leaves armor items as your main tank stat to prioritize (after HP, that is), and this leads me back to the tank situation above.

I honestly feel like tank items should give CDR. Even if they were to simply tweak the tank items to be less abusable by non-support champions (i.e. those not playing in the support role; meaning that the item would be viable on support Malphite who isn't getting solo-lane gold like top-lane Malphite would get).

ZerenzaNov 16, 20161 votes

You guys don't get it, the items you buy are more for helping your team and not for rewarding you for doing it. Tank supports should be rewarded for tanking, maybe they gain gold while taking damage if an ally is nearby or something, that way they get rewarded when they do their job. Poke supports for example have Spellthiefs edge which gives you gold when you poke. Heal supports need something like that as well, getting rewarded for healing their ally's instead of making items like Redemption that don't give them anything just make their job easier. In all honesty i don't care what support i have right now in every game as long as they buy redemption, the item is literally more important than the type of support i have.

Thanks for the downvote though due to misunderstanding.

Tentacle AdvisorNov 16, 20162 votes

Before I respond, I just want to point out that I never downvoted you. In fact, I upvoted you.

Anyway, I see your point about the gold gen, and that idea is actually rather interesting. I can see tank supports having an item that gives gold for taking damage. (Kind of like that one mastery gives you armor/mag res upon taking damage). I guess they could make it to where for every x amount of damage they take, they get y amount of gold. They could have it as a passive that stops if out of combat, so that it isn't just a broken 'I have free gold' item.

As for healing supports getting a gold gen for healing item, I guess that could work the same as the tank gold gen item I mentioned earlier. Same concept, gold gen per amount healed. (of course, both items would be a %-based gold gen, since that seems the least broken) Also, for the healing one, I'd say that the gold gen passive would be void if the target is already full hp, so that the gold gen isn't abusable by someone like Soraka who has infinite healing ability.

ZerenzaNov 16, 20161 votes

Like that's what i meant by rewarding them, supports don't need to feel like their role can carry(from what many support mains tell me) but they should definitely not always be behind everyone else and never get anything from their effort. The support role is different from other roles in that in other roles when you get an item it's to make your job easier(like gunblade on akali) but for supports their job is to help out however nothing in the game rewards them for doing that by giving them gold income and EXP income that makes up for the fact that they need to give so much to everyone else.

ErockandrollNov 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Like that's what i meant by rewarding them, supports don't need to feel like their role can carry(from what many support mains tell me) but they should definitely not always be behind everyone else and never get anything from their effort. The support role is different from other roles in that in other roles when you get an item it's to make your job easier(like gunblade on akali) but for supports their job is to help out however nothing in the game rewards them for doing that by giving them gold income and EXP income that makes up for the fact that they need to give so much to everyone else.

I doubt that's a problem that is easily fixed with itemization. I wouldn't recommend adding additional gold gen itemization. Even if you stacked it, it's sunk cost to pay more money just to earn more money. Rather you would spend the gold you have on a better support item.

If you want to support supports for doing support things. (Try saying that 3 times fast) try fixing that from a systemic point. Increase gold on ward kill, perhaps increase the gold and XP rewards for Assists.

ZerenzaNov 16, 20161 votes

See those are things that can help everyone, increasing the XP and Gold from Assists and Ward kills benefits everyone not just supports, but if support itemization for example, if Face of The Mountain or another version of it gave gold when you tanked damage while near a bound ally then that would be better and would benefit the support not everyone else too, you wouldn't need to give a buff to the system if their items weren't so crappy for them(the support gives up a lot just to get the items his/her team wants but gets nothing in return.)

ErockandrollNov 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

See those are things that can help everyone, increasing the XP and Gold from Assists and Ward kills benefits everyone not just supports, but if support itemization for example, if Face of The Mountain or another version of it gave gold when you tanked damage while near a bound ally then that would be better and would benefit the support not everyone else too, you wouldn't need to give a buff to the system if their items weren't so crappy for them(the support gives up a lot just to get the items his/her team wants but gets nothing in return.)

Your essentially asking for itemization that have that Duel lane synergy, but are far more greedy. Itemization such as that would be likely abused by alternate bot laners, (not just the support) I guess for example, If I wanted to use that damage tanked example, I would probably try putting it on a primary lane tank, and convince my support to go hard sustain. (Sona, Raka, Nami) That would give me a ton of gold, while my support sustains me so I can tank even more.

That may not necessarily be a bad thing, considering we need some alternative bot laners. You could make it a function of minions if you had to stop others from taking it. And that the other problem, if it promotes a supportive function, you can't make the passive greedy, otherwise, utility mages would be able to make far heavier uses with the item, ruining it for the supports it was intended for.

OglafNov 16, 20162 votes

item 3109 goes a long way to create a more symbiotic relationship between the Support and ADC when it comes to itemization. I mean, role-wise they are already symbiotic and all, but when it comes to items it is always the Support carrying around stuff to help others - often at the expense of themselves.

I love it because of that.

ZerenzaNov 16, 20161 votes

I like it too, i do wish it didn't just give raw stats and make it harder for the ADC to die but i'm biased towards it cause i main assassins lol

More items like Knight's vow and less items like Redemption is what i'd like to see in the future though, something that isn't just to save other's but gives you something else in return instead of just an AOE heal,Cleanse or Barrier.

HummmNowNov 16, 20162 votes

My copy and paste from a very similar post on Reddit:

As a support main, it's the items that feel bad in general for supports. Although, I think it was a great step forward with this new season's additions.

Other roles can really feel their respective item spikes. Tops with Frozen Mallet Gnar, Trinity Force Irelia. ADCs with their crit and attack speed items. Mids with morello/void staff/deathcap etc.

As a support, I never really feel the impact of the items I buy. Essentially, I just feel like I stay alive for an extra second or two but that's it. It feels this way because with less gold income, it takes longer for me to buy health/armor/MR than it does for other positions to buy their respective upgrades.

I buy my sightone like a good little support for 800g. While vision is certainly impactful and 150 HP doesn't hurt, when my teammates tunnel or my wards get swept it feels like I have very little impact.

Whereas on the other hand, Syndra can buy Lost Chapter for only 100g more and certainly has a faster rate of gold income while still providing more meaningful stats of 300 mana/25 AP/ Restoring 20% of max mana upon leveling.

Bottom line- support items are worse and more "mandatory" while other roles can buy similar priced items that provide a lot more meaningful stats quicker because of their rate of gold income. How can a support keep up with someone who can simply buy stats faster than you?

I don't know the answer to this without making certain items broken for other lanes, but it's just my two cents.

EDIT: I don't want to be recognized or anything like that. I just would like to feel like I have more impact on the game....and this is coming from a Bard main. Sure, my kit provides a ton of playmaking ability, it just feels like there is never a point in the game where I feel "strong" no matter the support I play. I just simply can't buy stats as fast as other roles, therefore I'm at a permanent disadvantage that can only be made up by #LCSBIGPLAYZ it feels like.