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Tanks should be tanks

JavelinJoe··80 votes·4,503 views

Why do so many of the newer tank items or tank item reworks have a powerful offensive/counteroffensive part to them? Does every champ that does not build raw damage need some form of damage passive? Can't we just have high defensive low offensive champs? Not every tank needs to be a bruiser or be able to hold their own in combat.

item 3742 item 3025 item 3053 item 3156

Now these are nowhere near the number of tank item options available, but ask yourself this, "How often do you see these items when compared to more traditional ones like item 3102 item 3022 item 3800 item 3083 ?"

Maybe it is just a silver thing but I rarely see item 3800 item 3022 item 3102 and only on specific champs do I sometimes see item 3083. To me it seems obvious that items who offer no offensive damaging stats, actives, or passives are shadowed by the ones that do simply because what they have in terms of alternatives are better. Why have high health based items like item 3083 or item 3800 or item 3022 when you can get all that and a cool damaging passive with armor by getting item 3742 instead? And who needs to be faster with item 3800 when you can slow them down with item 3025 or item 3143 and have more than just health and mana for stats. Need MR to help survive bursts? Get item 3156 and although you get 15 less MR than item 3102 and no health, you have tons of AD damage, armor pen, and 2 great passives to help you live.

Be honest, item 3075 is only good on Malphite Rammus and Shen or if you're against Vayne. 100 armor and an armor reliant passive can only go so far. item 3143 gives you health, armor, the most unique stat (-10% crit damage) and has both an attack speed slow and a movement speed slow.

tl;dr

Newer tankier items out shine many old ones. While all are useful, the newer ones are more universally applicable, while the old ones are very circumstantial. Newer ones also have offensive (mainly damage) capabilities while older ones do not. That could be and probably is the reason why the newer ones are more popular. Could some of the old classics receive an update/rework/upgrade to break them out of their circumstantial requirements and get them more relevant on many champions.

101 Comments

SlaktarTasken21 votes

Fighters currently suck ass though, why do you think we're seeing a double tank double adc on just about every competitive teamcomp? It's because Adc's are so goddamn rampant and tanks are the only ones that can survive their damage for more than a split second, it's essentially become a game of which frontline can soak the most, which backline can do the most damage. No need for more indepth strategy.

A Miss Fortune3 votes

Not all Fighters suck. Darius Fiora Gangplank Fizz Riven

Gideon968 votes

Darius is a juggernaut (practically super tank) and Fizz is more of an assassin (and cancer) than fighter tbh

A Miss Fortune3 votes

Juggernaut is basically what a Fighter is. Build 1 - 2 damage items and then tank. I feel like Juggernaut is just Riot's way of saying "5 tank item guy that still 2 shots your carry."

As for Fizz I would call him a Fighter-Assassin hybrid, but he definitely has characteristics of a Fighter for sure.

sedated twink7 votes

Riven is at 46% winrate if I remember and is being out-damaged by most meta top laners right now including this influx of tanky damage

Supreme Senpai699 votes

I feel like that's because Riven players either have experience and snowball or they just want a free win and feed

A Miss Fortune8 votes

i have to agree that an experienced Riven is significantly different from an unexperienced Riven, so much that it feels like two different champions.

Nameless Voice2 votes

Two words: Animation cancelling.

Rian2 votes

One word: bullshit. Riven isn't the only champion that benefit from hydra animation cancelling. But maybe just maybe titanic hydra is just fundermentaly broken for and against riven? I don't get this riven bashing even if she is already on the ground.

How about giving her better base stats and lower the obsolete bonus ad scaling. But no wait she don't use mana and she has this ad scaling shield and she is sooo mobile. As long as I see hypermobile tank ekkos, oneshoting fulltanks, 500+ movementspeed bears in the jungle and shuriken spamming ad midlaner your arguments are invalid. There are so many broken things and you guys still care about riven?

@A Miss Fortune I see a significantly difference between expirerienced and unexperienced urgot player. Riot should nerf him.

Nameless Voice1 votes

What does that have to do with anything?

All I said was that the reason there's a huge difference between inexperienced and experienced Riven players is because the former don't know about animation cancelling her spells (by moving, not using hydra), while the latter have mastered it.

A Miss Fortune4 votes

She's cancer regardless and all she needs is a kill or two to snowball out of control, especially with out snowball games are already. If your team isn't well organized to handle her slippery nature she will just demolish you. She clearly isn't in the best state she's been in but I wouldn't say she needs buffs.

Astôlfo2 votes

loool

Foxstep3 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WnFuikTj,comment-id=0002000000010002,timestamp=2016-04-09T20:25:04.589+0000)

She's cancer regardless and all she needs is a kill or two to snowball out of control, especially with out snowball games are already. If your team isn't well organized to handle her slippery nature she will just demolish you. She clearly isn't in the best state she's been in but I wouldn't say she needs buffs.

ayy lmao she is weak as shit. try to put a riven against a poppy, trundle, garen, darius or quinn and shes done.

Voluug133 votes

Well, Quinn, Garen, Darius and Poppy are her counterpicks after.

She is supposed to do bad against those.

Ycagel Legacy2 votes

{quoted}

Well, Quinn, Garen, Darius and Poppy are her counterpicks after.

She is supposed to do bad against those.

That's why, i will never take the boards seriously, while i agree with Quinn (And its only in lane, once Riven get BC/youmu and Hydra, she's fucked), Darius Garen Poppy don't counter Riven, they stomp unexperienced Riven, while skilled Riven will win the matchups most of the time. I find these matchups 10x more easy than bullshits champ like Rammus Malphite Volibear Nasus that can go 0/3 in lane and still beat you once they get their armor items while still dealing retarded damages.

Voluug133 votes

don't counter Riven, they stomp unexperienced Riven, while skilled Riven will win the matchups most of the time.

I am assuming equal skill. Which means that, yes, they do.

and still beat you once they get their armor items while still dealing retarded damages.

And the Riven main finally understand what is a counterpick against a champion hyperreliant of AD damage.

Hello I am Bird1 votes

Quinn shits really hard on Riven as long as she plays semi-safe early game.

Quinn can use her Vault off of riven's third q, making one of her best abilities somewhat useless.

Arakadia5 votes

Could that mean that the champions you listed counter and/or are broken?

Xengre4 votes

This. Riven is by no means weak. She is arguably broken and just crowded out by more ridiculous champions for what is desired in game atm and for her match up.

Flitchee2 votes

You can add Graves to that list, she cant trade with him or cheese him either. (Graves isnt op. Nope Not at all.)

ModCaptainMårvelous12 votes

Because those items weren't really designed to be tank items.

It goes back to the problem of having to try and put in Tank/Bruiser/Fighter/etc. items and make them distinct enough for each class. Deadman's was supposed to be a juggernaut/fighter item but it's stats outclassed Sunfire so well people picked it up in most cases.

TaoistMaster5 votes

They keep tank items weak on purpose.

If tanks are too good games are long and boring (to them) yet exciting and more developed to me.

Erockandroll4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Taoist Master,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WnFuikTj,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-04-09T14:52:09.265+0000)

They keep tank items weak on purpose.

If tanks are too good games are long and boring (to them) yet exciting and more developed to me.

There's a counter argument to that, particularly with engage tanks. You give a tank enough tools to engage well, teamfights will be short, and not become drawn out lines of scrimmage.

As for the whole Offensive part. Tank need at some level, offensive power. They need camp clear, wave clear, to a point where they can keep up with their opposite number, other wise, they would get out scaled.

Secondly, they need some power to be noticeable. Other wise, your high defensive stats would not help your team as you wouldn't be able to harry anyone. But for tanks, that tends to be more focused on CC rather than raw damage. As apposed to Bruisers and Juggernauts.

Lastly, even when a Tank does have damage, it's usually in the form of Burst, rather than DPS. (Also differs from Juggernauts.) Usually, that's paired with their CC. Tanks that do this well include Maokai, and Sion.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

As for the whole Offensive part. Tank need at some level, offensive power. They need camp clear, wave clear, to a point where they can keep up with their opposite number, other wise, they would get out scaled.

Insert Thank you gif here

ADC's build full damage, does this mean they should die when they get caught in a gust of wind? No. They should have some base defenses and options to build a bit more defensive if they need to, just like how tanks have the option to go a bit more damage orientied. item 3068 item 3025 summoner 31

Voluug134 votes

ADC's build full damage, does this mean they should die when they get caught in a gust of wind? No.

Mmmm except that is exactly the point where ADCs are supposed to be balanced on.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Items like item 3139 have always been a defensive option for ADC's. And even with these kind of items they'll still die quickly once you get your hands on them. (Unless they're Vayne.) I said there should be defensive options for ADC's there always have been defensive options for ADC's. Should abusing Steraks be a defensive option for them? No.

Voluug131 votes

Yeah but not to the level of current item 3139 item 3156 item 3053 .

Sahn Uzal1 votes

That is certainly true.

Should abusing Steraks be a defensive option for them? No.

summoner 31

SlaktarTasken10 votes

I don't reall'y think tanks need to be stronger, I think ADC's should be brought in line, assassins and fighters shouldn't have to think twise about soloing an adc, that is their jobs for fucks sake.

But when you have to 2v1 an adc as a fighter/assassin, needing to have someone else with you to do your job, you know this game has gone down the fucking drain.'

Melledoneus2 votes

Graves 1v5? Hold on.

ENEMY PENTAKILL

elon wątroba1 votes

Did you mean ENEMY QUADRAKILL, SHUTDOWN Ekko PENTAKILL?

agbudar5 votes

item 3083 needs more health im talking 1000 at least and a base hp regen added to it. remember how it used to give 1350 hp and could stack with itself? (and people think mundo is terrible to deal with now...) item 3022 needs a longer duration on the slow to make it desirable for anyone. item 3102 could probably use a hp regen like it used to. item 3075 can we add grievious wounds to this thing already? item 3800 needs a small armor and mr added to it im thinking around 20-25 which would make it a perfect tank support item. item 3056 needs 400 health item 3060 needs 300 health item 3050 why cant this thing have 50 armor? just sayin.

Gnart Even Close4 votes

i hope the next class they rework is tanks instead of assassins. assassin itemization is good enough for now imo, but tank items have been really problematic lately, either being weak or abusive on champions that aren't supposed to build them (i.e. tank ekko). i think that without significant changes, these major game health problems will be unsolved and that is not ok

LankPants1 votes

I want to see assassins personally because they're a stupid class to have to play against. They tend to just take the fun out of the game when they're strong.

Gnart Even Close1 votes

{quoted}

I want to see assassins personally because they're a stupid class to have to play against. They tend to just take the fun out of the game when they're strong.

yeah. i want assassins to be changed as well. i just think the tank items seriously need the changes more than assassins, because of abuse cases like tank akali, tank ekko, tank fiora, tank master yi, etc, etc. the items have serious flaws and will continue to cause major problems until addressed, unlike the assassin items. most of those are pretty well balanced for ad (now that maw has been nerfed), and ap assassins are pretty good at using regular old ap items like luden's echo. both need serious changes, i just think that tanks need it sooner

BattleBoar3 votes

The trouble is bruiser/fighters. Normal what would be a good fighter item will be all so a good tank item or the other way around. All so in solo lanes you need some sort of damage item to keep your CS up or you just lose in lane to more damaged heave champs. That why you hardly see any sort of tank outside of Support or Jungle before any of this items come out.

All so Item like MoM and Sterak I see a lot more on ADC or Assassin then any tanks. Spirit Visage is just to good of a item over MoM for tanks in my eyes.

Gregor Gysi3 votes

{quoted}

Newer tankier items out shine many old ones. While all are useful, the newer ones are more universally applicable, while the old ones are very circumstantial. Newer ones also have offensive (mainly damage) capabilities while older ones do not. That could be and probably is the reason why the newer ones are more popular. Could some of the old classics receive an update/rework/upgrade to break them out of their circumstantial requirements and get them more relevant on many champions.

The reason for you to come to this conclusion is that you is because you are somehow forgetting about certain items.

{quoted}

item 3742 item 3025 item 3053 item 3156 Now these are nowhere near the number of tank item options available, but ask yourself this, "How often do you see these items when compared to more traditional ones like item 3102 item 3022 item 3800 item 3083 ?"

item 3102 is obviously not outshined by item 3156 - in fact Maw is not even a tank item but rather an offensive item with a defensive/offensive unique passive. It is item 3065 that is outshining item 3102. Also, how is item 3800 a "traditional" tank item? It's not only rather new but does also have some sort of offensive/defensive active.

{quoted}

Maybe it is just a silver thing but I rarely see item 3800 item 3022 item 3102 and only on specific champs do I sometimes see item 3083. To me it seems obvious that items who offer no offensive damaging stats, actives, or passives are shadowed by the ones that do simply because what they have in terms of alternatives are better. Why have high health based items like item 3083 or item 3800 or item 3022 when you can get all that and a cool damaging passive with armor by getting item 3742 instead? And who needs to be faster with item 3800 when you can slow them down with item 3025 or item 3143 and have more than just health and mana for stats. Need MR to help survive bursts? Get item 3156 and although you get 15 less MR than item 3102 and no health, you have tons of AD damage, armor pen, and 2 great passives to help you live.

But item 3022 has offensive stats and a slow like item 3742..

{quoted}

Be honest, item 3075 is only good on Malphite Rammus and Shen or if you're against Vayne. 100 armor and an armor reliant passive can only go so far. item 3143 gives you health, armor, the most unique stat (-10% crit damage) and has both an attack speed slow and a movement speed slow.

Honestly, no. item 3143 is indeed very strong (but also a very traditional tank item!) but item 3075 is arguably even more unique than item 3143 - no idea why you would think otherwise. Also, isn't thornmail the very definition of tank items that also deal damage? And what about another traditional and strong tank item item 3068 ?

{quoted}

Newer tankier items out shine many old ones. While all are useful, the newer ones are more universally applicable, while the old ones are very circumstantial. Newer ones also have offensive (mainly damage) capabilities while older ones do not. That could be and probably is the reason why the newer ones are more popular. Could some of the old classics receive an update/rework/upgrade to break them out of their circumstantial requirements and get them more relevant on many champions.

Again, your conclusion doesn't seem right. It's not traditional vs non traditional tank items. It's not new vs old tank items (in fact item 3025 and item 3068 are the strongest tank items atm). Raw tank stats vs damage tank stats may be a part of the problem but isn't the only problem In the end it comes down to Grasp of the undying + item 3025 + item 3068 + random tank items being too strong. Even without item 3025 and item 3068 the tank build would be too strong. Worth watching btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5VzD-AB0wA

I think the nerfs to Gauntlet and Grasp on the PBE should be able to normalize things. The actually new items are in a sort of good spot already, let's see how it goes once the next patch ships.

Sahn Uzal5 votes

But.. But.. Fizz is just cancer no matter what you build on him. I thought that was common knowledge. summoner 31

Frnak1 votes

Fizz is the new Teemo.

Hello I am Bird1 votes

You disagreed with the OP

By the rules of the forum boards, everyone must downvote this man!

FenrirStriker3 votes

the problem this shows is that they are trying to turn tanks into bruiser when they arent, its making question the place of the utility tank alor. tank items need an update, just like they are doing whit the mages

Sahn Uzal2 votes

Not every tank needs to be a bruiser or be able to hold their own in combat.

Tank stats are combat stats. Everyone buying combat stats should be able to hold them selves in combat. Which is why supports usually are the only people unable to kill things. Now let's compare item 3068 item 3742 item 3143 as an example;. Other than the 100 damage that DMP offers, Sunfire is the only one giving damage. item 3068 Sunfires damage has ok base damage with a pretty shitty scaling, which means Sunfire damage will fall off really heavy as the game goes on. Ask yourself, how many times do you see people buy this in the early game, and how many times as in item to finish their build off? item 3742 Deadmans offers mobility. This is REALLY usefull on Tanks as it allows them to get in range to get their CC and damage off. It really compensates for one of the biggest weaknesses of their class. item 3143 Randuins offers 10 more armor than the other 2, offers -10% damage from crits, the AoE slow and the attackspeed reduction. Now if you buy this item..Do you even realise the value this item has in the right situation?

Sunfire is strong and really helps in the laningphase, mainly with waveclear actually, but as the game goes on, the other items become a lot more valuable for a true tank.

And who needs to be faster with item 3800 when you can slow them down with item 3025 or item 3143 and have more than just health and mana for stats.

Now that is some flawed logic. All tanks have inbuild crowdcontrol, their weakness is getting in range to apply it. Which is why Righteous glory was first introduced. It ended up being too good in LC$ and got gutted.

Need MR to help survive bursts? Get item 3156 and although you get 15 less MR than item 3102 and no health, you have tons of AD damage, armor pen, and 2 great passives to help you live.

Are you sure TANKS are building this? The top champions building this item are Zed, Lee Sin, Graves, Yasuo, Kha, Kindred, Panth, Yi, Irelia and Riven. None of these champions are a tank. Tanks prefer Banshees and Spirit visage, maybe a banner/locket or Abyscal. But not a maw. They lack the raw damage to make use of the lifeline passive's healing.

Be honest, item 3075 is only good on Malphite Rammus and Shen or if you're against Vayne . 100 armor and an armor reliant passive can only go so far. item 3143 gives you health, armor, the most unique stat (-10% crit damage) and has both an attack speed slow and a movement speed slow.

Yeah Thornmail Kinda sux atm. But how does randuins, a tank item, being a good pickup on tanks help you on your arguement of ''Tanks should be tanks'' If tanks are building tank items, tanks are tanks. What is the problem here?

As far as warmogs goes, the main problem is the lack of resistances. It's still a good situational item. Mallet just simply is not cost efficient, and tanks tend to be somewhat gold starved compared to our ADC overlords so there you go. Iceborn gauntlet is pretty strong atm, but it's getting nerfed on the PBE. Steraks is mainly build by ADC's and Juggernauts, not tanks. summoner 31

Ralanr1 votes

The only tanks I can see building Steraks are Sion and Poppy, but only because they are the only tanks with AD scalings.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't build steraks either if they didn't synergise with IBG as well as they do. summoner 31

Ralanr1 votes

Probably because building their auto attack state really amps up the damage on spell blade procs. One of the reasons I really enjoy Sion and Poppy is that they have AD scalings which allows them to benefit off of bruiser items better than other tanks.

I do hope to see more AD scaling tanks. And I mean actual tanks, not tanky fighters or juggernauts.

Sire Hippington2 votes

in short: yes they do need to deal damage.

the problem is that damage outscales tankiness very hard, so after a certain point (usually 4th item ion the carries is the breaking point), soaking up damage simply doesn't really work, and even if you had enough tankiness, your opponents would need a reason to focus you, else you get ignored till your team is dead. This isn't a MMO, you don't get focused if you aren't dangerous. Also, the only way to really prolong your life is by killing the opposing damagesource or to cc it alot thus you need either TONS of cc or some relevant damage, as raw tankiness gets outscaled very heavily by raw dps.. Also, you need waveclear and farm to compete with more damage oriented classes, which requires you to deal damage.

If tanks would have higher scaleing damage vs minions and monsters so they can compete in farm and waveclear, it would be a good start, sunfire was an atempt for that and it's become the go-to rush item. Aditionally, tanks would need to become much more disruptive and tanky to be relevant if their damage was lower. however, more disruptiveness would mostly trandlate to more peel and thus further benefit the current heavy frontline+hyper backline meta.

also for why you rarly see item 3102 item 3022 item 3800 item 3083 :

item 3102 just os outclassed by item 3065, mostly cas SV grants cdr, and cdr is the single most imortant stat for most champs, especially utillity based champs. And if we look at cdr options for tanks, we only have 3 items, item 3110 item 3025 item 3065 , and you rarly see iceborn and FH in the same built.

item 3022 not a tank item, tanks don't want 40ad, and they don't need the slow that much as they usually have alot cc themself. It's a heavily underated item on bruisers and carries though, it is finally goldefficient in the stats it give since preseason, so you good a great mix of ad and health with the slow on top.

item 3800 simply got gutted to a point where buying it is a fail, unless your heavily snowballing. It gives just waaaaay to little combat stats, so in the end what it brings you is the abillity to engage fights that you will never win.

item 3083 : good idea, bad execution. Raw maxhealth would be a great tankstat to rush, and sustain would help in lane aswell, just that it does shit as a rush item as you require 3k hp to unlock the passive, and without the passive it just isn't gold efficient. Past 20 min, the passive also becomes rather weak cause it takes to ling to kick in. Recalling(wich also is 8sec out of combat) and returning to the battle via homegourd is just as effective. Also, as the single highest health item, one might think that it could be combined well with raw armor/mr items, but most raw armor items scale with aditional items and warmongs itself has that stupid 3k requirement so it's worth shit without aditional health items

Also for the items that you claim to be built on tanks item 3742 is a item with next to no damage. 100 damage on your first aa in combat, thats like nothing, and everthing else it offers is tankiness and mobillity for engages. I'd argue that this IS a tank item and tanks built it to do tank things. item 3025 This mostly grants utillity and some defense, and the offense it gives isn't an agressive stat, but scales with base ad, so this item clearly is aimed at tanks. The main reason it's uses that much is cause it'S one of the two ONLY mana+20%cdr items for tanks, and the alternative(FH) currently is rather weak. Even with the damage nerf, it will still be built on most of the champs in question as they NEED the mana and cdr it gives item 3156 I never have seen any tank useing that item, for obvious reason. It's an ad item for brusier and ad-casters and sometimes marksmen, no tank would want to pay that much gold for ad and armorpen. item 3053 I honestly haven't seen tanks building it, and if they do, then surely not because of the bit of base ad it offers. If the 30% hp shield gets used, it simply is the most powerfull tankitem in the game. No other item grants so much raw tankiness IF focused.

Only Play Darius2 votes

Thanks to ADC reworks and nerfs to item 3075 you can no longer tank against an ADC, you need to kill them. Either you build damage on someone tanky or you build tanky on someone who already does damage MasterYi Ekko you can no longer function as a pure damage-soaker

Saphixia1 votes

Just mentioning something, although I do agree somewhat with this post; 1.

Maybe it is just a silver thing but I rarely seeitem 3800 item 3022 item 3102 and only on specific champs do I sometimes see item 3083

well for a start, item 3800 is only really for people who want to engage, or sometimes when you are running after someone. Some tanks are awful at engaging. For example, Darius Illaoi Irelia Garen Fiora (although most of these people engage anyway, they arent that good at it)

second, item 3022 isnt picked as people think that item 3025 is better and i admit, usually it is.

item 3102 isnt a tank item, as tanks take more than one hit in a team fight.

and yeah it seems other people have gone into more detail in the comments so imme just leave this here!

LankPants2 votes

For example, Darius Illaoi Irelia Garen Fiora (although most of these people engage anyway, they arent that good at it)

You just managed to not name a single tank, good job though.

Saphixia1 votes

ok maybe not irelia and fiora, buttttt http://imgur.com/aaZDvup (picture not rendering properly, you have to click on it) These are all the tanks in the game. Yes even Darius Aatrox Galio Renekton Shen Shyvana Trundle Udyr Warwick MonkeyKing which tbh dont make any sense but most of these people arent engagees anyway

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