Top laner isn't meant for Tankers or Juggernauts anymore

ValiantKiller·Apr 23, 2019·60 votes·16,618 views

The tankers and Juggernauts champions of top lane is dead right now.

That is the list of best top laners 2 divers, 2 adc, 2 skirmishers and 1 broken lane bully and lane scaler mage that didn't get a damn nerf for patchs now not to mention most of this champions are abuse of new Conquer.

Top lane right now is filled with the most of toxic champions in the game, either they put twice damage of Juggernauts or they just able to tanky due to their in build skills more than tankers while having ability to CC and dive you under tower to finish you within seconds.

106 Comments

MordepoolApr 23, 201959 votes

Juggernauts won't be good until they actually give us itemization that other Roles don't use better

ValiantKillerApr 23, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts won't be good until they actually give us itemization that other Roles don't use better

I know right ?

A Bad NasusApr 23, 201910 votes

That will likely never happen unless they directly impose further class restrictions on items.

MordepoolApr 23, 20197 votes

Why the fuck not. Why not have Subclass specific items inaccessible to other classes

ValiantKillerApr 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Why the fuck not. Why not have Subclass specific items inaccessible to other classes

Cause they will kill creative toxic player mindset that abuse items, duh

Spicy RiceApr 23, 201911 votes

What I want to see is items with scaling effects tied to stats, like Warmogs, where the main effect is tied behind a stat wall you need to reach.

This way, you would be able to make strong items, while also avoiding people being able to use it without the proper investment

ValiantKillerApr 23, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WjWNyIHg,comment-id=0000000100000001,timestamp=2019-04-23T13:12:55.274+0000)

What I want to see is items with scaling effects tied to stats, like Warmogs, where the main effect is tied behind a stat wall you need to reach.

This way, you would be able to make strong items, while also avoiding people being able to use it without the proper investment

I mean it took they ages to make right nerf to champions that abuse aftershock and right nerf was simple make it scale with armor and mr not damage

LeetriApr 23, 20194 votes

For argument's sake, what would those stats be? Juggernauts want HP, AD and resistances, no? What prevents say Master Yi, Irelia or Jax from building that item? They also want those stats, and now you got mobile slayers building juggernaut items.

Love AnastasiaApr 24, 20191 votes

Yeah, that would be the best way to ruin the game. Affortunaly Riot wont listen a trash idea like this

ValiantKillerApr 24, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Destello Veloz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WjWNyIHg,comment-id=0000000100000002,timestamp=2019-04-24T10:02:33.484+0000)

Yeah, that would be the best way to ruin the game. Affortunaly Riot wont listen a trash idea like this

Like game is in it best shape?

Hexs FortuneApr 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts won't be good until they actually give us itemization that other Roles don't use better

Bingo

LovelleApr 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts won't be good until they actually give us itemization that other Roles don't use better

I think giving these two items item 3044 item 1011 more build path options would be a good start, but they can't tack on a bunch of AD like they do with the other items juggernauts are supposed to use. Leave the AD as low as possible, while increasing things like movespeed, utility, in general things that help shore up their weaknesses and/or accommodate their kits. Juggernauts have enough damage in their kits, they struggle with actually sticking to targets, surviving long enough to deal their damage, and not having enough utility to contribute when behind. Nearly every mobile melee has more utility than most of the juggernauts, and if they don't they certainly deal a lot more damage.

PaffWasTakenApr 23, 201925 votes

Remove conqueror Introduce ACTUAL keystone for bruisers that doesn't implies true damage and that can't be used by specific champions for cheesy strategies Either increase the hell out of base cooldowns of oppressive champions or remove CDR from some itemisation (Riot, CDR on more than 50% of all the items isn't fun at all) Decrease extreme snowballing Remove extreme synergy items such as item 3161

ValiantKillerApr 23, 20197 votes

{quoted}

Remove conqueror Introduce ACTUAL keystone for bruisers that doesn't implies true damage and that can't be used by specific champions for cheesy strategies Either increase the hell out of base cooldowns of oppressive champions or remove CDR from some itemisation (Riot, CDR on more than 50% of all the items isn't fun at all) Decrease extreme snowballing Remove extreme synergy items such as

Anything that doesn't use mana alot got alot of cdr items for no reason plus the dumb new runes system

FSRERApr 23, 20199 votes

Riot hates juggernauts. That is why they haven't created anything juggernautish since illaoi (made a broken, juggernaut failure, overpowered and borken and they gave up, just like with balancing the game). Kayle Too strong early game to compensate for the godly late game Renekton Falls of like a real lane bully should Hecarim Fine except when he becomes unkillable with conqueror (literally goes 1v5 and survives with trinity and steraks and tanks for 10 secs. Jax If you know how to play against him he becomes useless with the nerfs they gave him (nerfed a DUELISTS damage because riot created spear of shojin) and actually playing Fiora if you want a duelist is way, way better than jax. Riven Builds black cleaver and deaths dance and becomes unkillable Vayne If they want a adc that counters tanks, they should nerf her q damage and r stealth and leave the true damage untouched Vladimir A ultra safe, self healing mage who hasn't be touched because....idfk why

Chembaron YamadaApr 23, 20194 votes

They reworked 2 champions, which haven't historically been juggernauts, into such: Aatrox Urgot So "no juggernauts since Illaoi" isn't really true.

Even if it would be true that we didn't get a juggernaut since then, this doesn't prove that they hate this subclass. By that logic, Riot also hates skirmishers, since we didn't get a new one since Yasuo.

ValiantKillerApr 23, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WjWNyIHg,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-04-23T07:27:44.941+0000)

They reworked 2 champions, which haven't historically been juggernauts, into such: So "no juggernauts since Illaoi" isn't really true.

Even if it would be true that we didn't get a juggernaut since then, this doesn't prove that they hate this subclass. By that logic, Riot also hates skirmishers, since we didn't get a new one since Yasuo.

But they made fail with them and gutted them for pro play

RaQqaApr 23, 20195 votes

Fiora better duelist than Jax ?? xDD Jax literally wins vs everyone, who rely on AA. Fiora Camille Renekton Darius Kled Irelia Tryndamere Garen Gangplank XinZhao Warwick Trundle Hecarim Vladimir Just u have to understand the fact that jax can learn play vs these champions too, all he has to do is to have knowledge when to start trading with enemy, and in what moment use his E, he can win all these match ups, they are skill match ups.

His worst matches are Riven Jayce Cassiopeia Anivia Other troublesome matches but less opressive : Olaf Urgot Aatrox Nasus Kennen Pantheon and thats literally all. If i am wrong correct me.

SaevumApr 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

better duelist than ?? xDD Jax literally wins vs everyone, who rely on AA. Just u have to understand the fact that jax can learn play vs these champions too, all he has to do is to have knowledge when to start trading with enemy, and in what moment use his E, he can win all these match ups, they are skill match ups.

His worst matches are Other troublesome matches but less opressive : and thats literally all. If i am wrong correct me.

He also beats good ol' Shyvana he coughs against Singed

GayFluffyUnicornApr 25, 20191 votes

Gangplank murders jax. Hecarim destroys jax in his current form. Tryndamere hasn't been losing to jax for a loooong time. Grasp fiora beats jax kled destroys jax as well (well not anymore, he doesn't have a keystone anymore). Panth less opressive? Dafuq? Jax has if not completely overpowered a good matchup against riven and gets completely destroyed by kennen and pantheon unless you literally give up your entire lane and just try to scale.

And while yes a lot of matchups toplane are INDEED a skill matchup for jax the moment he missplays once against decent players he gets steamrolled in lane and never finishes trinity until the game ends. People are just plain bad i know that from both sides as jax and against jax.But the burden lies on jax to play well and not the other way round.

I never lost lane to a jax in the last two years unless he had the jungler in his pocket and then yes it gets frustrating when jax is ahead, jumps at you and just kill you and before the nerfs i might have agreed to some early game nerfs but riot nerfed especially his lategame these fuckin idiots.

RaQqaApr 25, 20192 votes

Kled rape jax in early, all u have to do is just not trading, u can just def from his dmg with e after 6, sheen and maybe phage u can already kill him, they key is to wait with your e to the moment when his lizard goes away, now u use e , he is slow, and can't really reload passive with his aa because u block it with your helicopter, he dies.

Vs fiora skill match up, if jax avoids riposte and use his e in good moment he wins, fiora overall has better early against him cus she can poke him. If jax get hitten by riposte, even without stun he is getting high as nerf, in that moment u have to go back or use e.

Trynd can't really kill u if u are using your E well, u don't have any chance early too vs him because he has crit an sustain, but after u get tabis, tiamat and maybe trinity or less, u just get bulky, u can duel him.

Hecarim also outsustain your dmg early, u just don't trade with him, after trinity u can just jump on him and smash the ground with him, if u didn't feed him, just farm, he pushes the lane fast so u can easy farm under tower.

Yes pantheon is less opressive than jayce, riven, first he is very easy to gank, and he just got early, if he don't stomp the lane, after 6 or higher lvl he will get rekt by jax. Just check highelo riven gameplay vs jax, and u will see what is the problem laning against riven as jax, can be adrian riven. Kennen is annoying, but can't really outdual jax in mid game. All what he is doing is just poke and running away if u are trying to engage, he can't one shot u, u can farm, there lies more about wave menagment skills.

Gp is annoying i must admit it, but still u outduel him if u really are not that much behind in creeps after first back for example. Jax with 2 items can kill gp with 3 or 4, I know from my experience because i once feeded gp as jax, and just when i had 2 items he had almost 4 and i won duel xd.

I wrote that they all are skill match ups for jax, except the ones i wrote below, they just make jax life miserable from the start, to the late game.

Yes the burden lies on the jax side to be a fucking sage of all champions and how to trade with them, and if u use that knowledge u can use him well. If someone pick jax because thinks he is op and can just go in on every AA reliant champion in every stage of game and win in every moment then he is a fool.

MorgManBasherApr 23, 20197 votes

lol top tier top laners without listing Kennen

ValiantKillerApr 23, 20198 votes

{quoted}

lol top tier top laners without listing

Forgot the kelpto cancer

Spicy RiceApr 23, 20193 votes

Cancermancy

boricCentaur1Apr 23, 20195 votes

You can play a tank into most of those champions sooo idk what your problem is.

WAZZZUP500Apr 23, 20191 votes

The only champs listed that lose to tanks are kayle (pre-11, which kinda goes unsaid for all champs), and kennen, but only early game.

boricCentaur1Apr 23, 20192 votes

That is just untrue. Poppy and mao can both kill most of those champions in lane and most tanks can just farm since most of those champions can't dive a tank and live. Like pls play tanks.

WAZZZUP500Apr 23, 20195 votes

Ok so basically wait for them to go full brainless mode and commit sudoku under turret. I wouldn't call that winning, I'd call that running down their patience.Mao can't kill, poppy can only kill on the wall, which win't happen if they know what they're doing, orrn can get outplayed pretty easily, shen requires a lot of set-up. Sitting and farming doesn't really put you ahead either, you just go even. Tanks are not the solution (not to mention true damage, conqueror, easy itemization against tanks, etc.)

WeaselRuneApr 23, 20191 votes

commit sudoku under turret

_ Sudoku - originally called Number Place)[1] is a logic-based,[2][3] combinatorial[4] number-placement puzzle._

I guess if they were playing a puzzle game under the turret that would be an easy lane...

Seppuku - Seppuku (Japanese: 切腹, "cutting [the] belly"), sometimes referred to as harakiri.

Just... trying to help out.

WAZZZUP500Apr 23, 20193 votes

nah i know, it was a joke.

boricCentaur1Apr 23, 20192 votes

Tanks do more in team fights then basically every one of those champions but kayle, so yeah farming under tower is winning since they do more.

Mao and poppy both have high base damage and ways of lowering the damage they take in a trade like go play poppy vs jax or hec they can't do much.

Like it sounds like you never played a tank and think everything is about laning phase. Like TANK ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO 1V1 SO STOP SAYING THERE WEAK SINCE THEY CAN'T 1V1 IT MAKES NO SENSE. Ornn has a bad landing just play passive since he beats every top laner listed in mid and late since he has so much utility. Like you don't need to get ahead as a tank it doesn't do much for them there items are cheap and very gold efficient so just by being around even you win.

WAZZZUP500Apr 25, 20191 votes

I play a lot of nautilus in both the support and top lane roles. I know what I'm talking about.

If you just sit under tower and try to cs the whole lane phase, you will be behind and you won't be tanky enough to have much impact in a teamfight. A tank that is even slightly behind can't do much more than provide cc during small skirmishes; you're gonna get blown up instantly in a teamfight.

boricCentaur1Apr 25, 20191 votes

I do not care about your experience since it's not true tank items cost a lot less and you will be down around 10 cs meaning you will be about equal in items if not ahead.

Why are you lying?

WAZZZUP500Apr 25, 20191 votes

wtf you mean lying??? I have personal experience with this, and more experience than you. You don't even play tank top lane, save for some maokai games. You play jungle, don't tell me how top lane works when you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

You aren't taking into account all the variables that go into playing a lane. There's the enemy laner who's trying to deny you, there might be the tower preventing you from csing by killing the minions, there's the minions movements, minion block, jungle pressure; all these are thing that influence what I can do with the wave and how well i can cs. If I'm fighting a riven or something, and I can't fight her, she'll zone me off the wave so i can't cs and fall behind. Against range, I get harrassed for trying to cs.

Even in normal matchups, jungle pressure can force me to back off. The enemy might have more waveclear then me and can shove under turret. They might also freeze the lane, making it difficult to approach/break the freeze without letting cs slip through my fingers.

There are so many layers that you don't seem to understand; don't tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Edit: About your whole argument on tank items being cheaper; bruiser items have better build paths that provide more useful passives (rage from phage, sheen, tiamat, etc.). So even though tank items are cheaper, you don't really get anything but stats from them, while bruisers and fighters get stats+passives, with better, smoother power curves on their purchases.

Look at black cleaver, deaths dance, and trinity force. All have useful base components that build up to a cheap final buy. They get to benefit form the stats and passives while they wait to get the big item, while tanks get some cheap hp items and have a longer delay until the get the usefulness of passives (the only real exception being bami's cinder).

Dr ApathyApr 23, 20195 votes

Except jax is a dead pick and hecarim is Neeko Quinn Viktor Vladimir slightly overtuned. Jax offers more counterplay then ranged top bullies like Gnar Heimerdinger Kennen

Meanwhile we have the jax hatred since he is a nasus low elo stomper, that requires jungle attention to fuction and is behind hard looses.

ValiantKillerApr 23, 201913 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Apathy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WjWNyIHg,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-23T03:56:09.732+0000)

Except jax is a dead pick and hecarim is slightly overtuned. Jax offers more counterplay then ranged top bullies like

Meanwhile we have the jax hatred since he is a nasus low elo stomper, that requires jungle attention to fuction and is behind hard looses.

You know what is the topic about even ?

Dr ApathyApr 23, 20193 votes

I wish you would play toplane, more then 5 toplaners, then talk. Literally all that goes top is ranged champions and tanks, bruisers are like playing on hardmode while mages/tanks/rangeds are easy mode.

Z3SleeperApr 23, 20192 votes

There are a grand total of 0 tanks that are meta in top lane right now.

I agree that there are far too many effective ranged lane bullies though which add to the problem.

Lv1 Facecheck GGApr 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

There are a grand total of 0 tanks that are meta in top lane right now.

I agree that there are far too many effective ranged lane bullies though which add to the problem.

Except Garen Nasus Yorick Volibear Sion and DrMundo are all able to be big tanky threats and all have 50%+ winrates... what more should they do for juggernauts/tanks to make them seem satisfactory? Turn Alistar and Braum into solo laners? Pull Amumu and Rammus out of the jungle?

Z3SleeperApr 23, 20192 votes

Juggernauts =/= tanks.

Yara0Apr 23, 20194 votes

you forgot Irelia

ValiantKillerApr 23, 20193 votes

{quoted}

you forgot

and devil Teemo

Shiroe OkazakiApr 23, 20193 votes

IMO jax is kind of dead top. He has very few winning match ups and heavily relies on jg help until late game

ValiantKillerApr 23, 201911 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shiroe Okazaki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WjWNyIHg,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-04-23T04:14:53.624+0000)

IMO jax is kind of dead top. He has very few winning match ups and heavily relies on jg help until late game

Dead to what, ? He still top tier

YennApr 23, 20193 votes

Tanks could use more power, but juggernauts being strong picks is a sign that the game is unhealthy, because they literally revolve around running their opponent down with little to no skill expression.

There's no way for them to be good without being overpowered, because they're so binary and have an insanely low skill ceiling: they can either successfully run their target down or they can't.

WAZZZUP500Apr 23, 20194 votes

Almost like that's every single champ in the game, except juggarnauts do it worse due to the lack of mobility. Just try and tell me that riven, kennen, and jax don't do the exact same thing.

EphixusApr 23, 20192 votes

So Urgot is trash as Juggernaut?

He is tanky, deals dmg like an ADC and pure cancer at the same time.

ValiantKillerApr 23, 20193 votes

{quoted}

So Urgot is trash as Juggernaut?

He is tanky, deals dmg like an ADC and pure cancer at the same time.

Urgot is squishy right now compared to other juggernaut, infact I don't think he is juggernaut anymore

Aatrox AirlinesApr 23, 20191 votes

HOW THE HECK CAN ANYONE DOWNVOTE THIS THREAD

ValiantKillerApr 23, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aatrox Airlines,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WjWNyIHg,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2019-04-23T17:59:16.203+0000)

HOW THE HECK CAN ANYONE DOWNVOTE THIS THREAD

Cause some have a hate toward tankers and juggernauts